Bolton Wanderers Fans Forum

You are not connected. Please login or register

Bolton Nuts » BWFC » Bolton Wanderers Banter » Give me one reason why Parkinson should keep his job.

Give me one reason why Parkinson should keep his job.

Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

Go down  Message [Page 4 of 5]

T.R.O.Y


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
MartinBWFC wrote:
T.R.O.Y wrote:
Sorry but that is just completely untrue. Clubs rarely sell unless there’s a plan in place and time to get a replacement in.
So in a nutshell you believe we should have kept a player who's head was turned by a better offer? then let him go for nothing at the end of the season, think I'd trust Kens judgement over yours.

Getting a bit fed up with you not reading comments. I’ve said multiple times selling was the right thing to do we need the money. But that doesn’t change the fact the most important player was sold by Anderson and no plan in place for the aftermath.

T.R.O.Y


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
Natasha Whittam wrote:
T.R.O.Y wrote:Sorry but that is just completely untrue. Clubs rarely sell unless there’s a plan in place and time to get a replacement in.

Of course it's true. If someone offered £300m for Mo Salah Liverpool would probably sell.

Money talks in football.

I’m sure they would, but not before getting a replacement. Dembele /Neymar /Barca /PSG is a case in point.

T.R.O.Y


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
MartinBWFC wrote:
T.R.O.Y wrote:
Of course we know who’s responsible for transfers, it’s the Andersons this is no secret.

Again you are just inventing things here - you’ve never seen Obasi play, or Hall I’d imagine. How do you know they’re a better option? Neither of them are a target man either.
Inventing? what are you going on about? I have seen enough of Wilbraham to know he's a waste of a shirt, how could putting Obasi and Hall on the bench instead of Wilbraham and Buckley be detrimental to the team? you don't need to see a professional footballer to know they must be better than them two.

You’re inventing that Obasi is a better option, you haven’t seen him play. He’s also not a target man, which is what we actually need.

Natasha Whittam

avatar
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
T.R.O.Y wrote:I’m sure they would, but not before getting a replacement. Dembele /Neymar /Barca /PSG is a case in point.

Not sure why you're using two of the richest clubs in the world to make your point.

Liverpool sold Coutinho because it was a silly amount of money. They didn't replace him.

Unless you're City, PSG etc you have to accept that sometimes you're going to lose your best player to a sale or injury. You can't use it as an excuse for being shit.

MartinBWFC

avatar
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf
T.R.O.Y wrote:
You’re inventing that Obasi is a better option, you haven’t seen him play. He’s also not a target man, which is what we actually need.
You don't half chat some shit, Wilbraham offers less than fuck all, so how could putting a 20 year old or Obasi  on the bench be detrimental I asked, you don't seem to be able to offer any answers, target man or not Wilbraham is dogshit, not hard to improve on.

Natasha Whittam

avatar
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
It does seem a bit mental to bring Obasi on board and not at least have him on the bench.

T.R.O.Y


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
Coutinho didn’t need to be replaced their system doesn’t use a 10. In relative terms Madine’s worth to us was higher. 

Losing Madine isn’t the sole reason we’re struggling (obviously) but I think it highlights the shit sandwich PP had been handed. By all rights we should be getting relegated this year, I’ve said that since the beginning of the season. So I just can’t knock him when he has us in the position we are in.

T.R.O.Y


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
MartinBWFC wrote:
T.R.O.Y wrote:
You’re inventing that Obasi is a better option, you haven’t seen him play. He’s also not a target man, which is what we actually need.
You don't half chat some shit, Wilbraham offers less than fuck all, so how could putting a 20 year old or Obasi  on the bench be detrimental I asked, you don't seem to be able to offer any answers, target man or not Wilbraham is dogshit, not hard to improve on.

No need to start getting aggressive. I haven’t said it would be detrimental, you need to read my posts. All I’ve said is you have no basis at all to say he’s a better option, he could be the worst footballer in the world. 

I don’t rate Wilbraham at all - but we don’t have another target man in the squad so I see why he’s getting chances at least.

observer


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
Natasha Whittam wrote:It does seem a bit mental to bring Obasi on board and not at least have him on the bench.
After yesterday's debacle, Obasi and Hall can't be worse than a 38-year old in front.

wanderlust

avatar
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
T.R.O.Y wrote:We could (and IMO should) be doing worse than we are, this squad and our resources should have us bottom 3 incredible that we’re not. 
This argument has been trotted out a lot but I have wonder on what basis you come to this conclusion seeing as there are 5 Championship teams with a lower  squad value than us? 
On top of that, history has shown time and time again that money isn't everything and that less expensive players can win against more expensive ones providing that they are organised properly, adopt a system that plays to their strengths and are given the motivation to perform to the best of their ability.
It's easy to blame the players especially when they come from the bargain basement, but I find it hard to see what the manager contributes because I don't believe he has them organised properly, playing a system that plays to their strengths or are motivated to perform to their best.
So to turn the question slightly, where is the evidence that Parky is doing any of these things?

T.R.O.Y


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
Firstly, using squad value as an indicator of quality is deeply flawed. I’d imagine you’ve used transfermarkt or similar to do so? Which is essentially someone’s opinion of a players market value. A better indicator would be how much is spent improving the squad each year as what you’ll find in most leagues is an almostdirect correlation between spending and final league position. 

You’re often criticised for your armchair opinions - mostly unfairly - but claiming an intricate knowledge of a managers performance and contribution would be difficult without behind closed doors access or at the minimum seeing a lot of games.

Since the opening 10 games Parkinson has created a solid team, up until the last few games we looked solid and we’re grinding out results that was built on a defence that could keep clean sheets, and an attack that could nick a goal. The evidence is that we are not adrift in the bottom 3, had we conceded and played like this all season your comments would carry some weight, but we haven’t or we’d be down already.

The wheels have come off, no doubt about it. And personally I don’t think we have enough to stay up, PP will go if we don’t I’m sure of that, but I don’t think he’s done a bad job with us at all under very difficult circumstances.

My question that neither yourself nor Martin have ever managed to answer is where should we be with this squad of players? And who is under performing?

wanderlust

avatar
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
T.R.O.Y wrote:Firstly, using squad value as an indicator of quality is deeply flawed. I’d imagine you’ve used transfermarkt or similar to do so? Which is essentially someone’s opinion of a players market value. A better indicator would be how much is spent improving the squad each year as what you’ll find in most leagues is an almostdirect correlation between spending and final league position. 

You’re often criticised for your armchair opinions - mostly unfairly - but claiming an intricate knowledge of a managers performance and contribution would be difficult without behind closed doors access or at the minimum seeing a lot of games.

Since the opening 10 games Parkinson has created a solid team, up until the last few games we looked solid and we’re grinding out results that was built on a defence that could keep clean sheets, and an attack that could nick a goal. The evidence is that we are not adrift in the bottom 3, had we conceded and played like this all season your comments would carry some weight, but we haven’t or we’d be down already.

The wheels have come off, no doubt about it. And personally I don’t think we have enough to stay up, PP will go if we don’t I’m sure of that, but I don’t think he’s done a bad job with us at all under very difficult circumstances.

My question that neither yourself nor Martin have ever managed to answer is where should we be with this squad of players? And who is under performing?
Here's an answer....
There is no "where should we be" other than "where we deserve to be" - which is exactly where we are.
The real subtext of your comment is that you are implying that the "lack of investment" compared to other clubs has hampered our progress (rather than our progress being hampered by the manager's inability to organise and motivate his players) but that seems to me a flawed argument for the following reasons.
1. How do you measure investment in the squad? If it's not the current market value of the squad (and ours is by no means the lowest value) then perhaps it's net transfer expenditure? If so, 8 teams in the Championship have a greater net positive balance on transfers than us i.e. they have sold more than they have bought.
With the sale of Madine (and Proctor) our net transfers are E6.89m income this season, but Villa (E15.03m) Preston (E8.10m) Brentford (E9.07m) Derby (E9.01m) Norwich (E18.49m) Sunderland (E31.74m) Hull (E25.33m) and Forest (E10.45m) have all spent less than us on bolstering the squad and there are several others that have spent less than they have received.
These figures are not "an opinion" but are purely the facts on what each club received for players v what the club has paid for players - but if you still want to labour the point perhaps you could tell us what criteria should be used to show the relative "lack of investment" and what facts support that argument? We can cry into our soup about not being in a position to buy our way out of trouble any more, but sooner or later the manager has to go to work and make it work.
2. As alluded to previously, it's not all about money and any squad of professionals can succeed if they are organised properly, playing a system that works to their strengths and are motivated to perform to their best - all the manager's responsibility. The only evidence I can provide to show that Parkinson is failing in this are our performances (and especially the nature of them) our results and our league position. So the answer to your question "who is underperforming?" is the primarily the manager, but also the entire team as they are not organised, playing a system that suits them or suitably motivated.

But I'd be interested to hear if you have anything to show that the manager is performing well.

There's another aspect to this equation and that's team selection. Not sure if it's due to dogmatism or prejudice but there are players in the squad who don't get a proper chance regardless of how poorly the regulars are doing, so it's not as though Parky doesn't have tactical and selection options if he has the nous to try something different. For example, without a serious goal threat at present he could be looking at the squad and consider going for raw pace up front - which would make sense seeing as he sets up so deep and there's space to work with. But he won't and therefore comes across as a manager with limited creativity and unwilling to take a chance when the chips are down.

Ultimately, team and system selection, player motivation and organisation are all down to the manager and those three things have the biggest impact on performances which is why the manager is primarily responsible IMO.

Having said all that, I am still hopeful that Parky can rescue the situation - but I'm not at all confident he will.

T.R.O.Y


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
Happy to answer this post in it's entirety, but can we just focus on point 1 first because I think you've missed my point, or don't understand the principle of it.

Talking about sales may provide context but is hardly a measure of squad investment, I'm a bit baffled you've bought it up to be honest with you. For instance Villa managed to get Jordan Veretout out the door, who hasn't featured for them since they went down replacements have been in the door for two years (see Mile Jedinak) and as such feature on your list. They've also spent 10s of millions on squad improvement over the last few years (Kodije, Hogan, hourihane) to name but a few. They also blew a big chunk of their budget paying JT's wages this summer.

There's no argument here I'm afraid, the fact is our investment has been on the slide for a few years now. I don't blame KA for that, the club needs to act accordingly. But at the end of the day you get what you pay for in football and I don't think the players are good enough - to be frank.

Anything outside of the relegation zone is above expectations for me, it's my opinion it may not be right but it is based on facts.

wanderlust

avatar
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
T.R.O.Y wrote:Happy to answer this post in it's entirety, but can we just focus on point 1 first because I think you've missed my point, or don't understand the principle of it.

Talking about sales may provide context but is hardly a measure of squad investment, I'm a bit baffled you've bought it up to be honest with you. For instance Villa managed to get Jordan Veretout out the door, who hasn't featured for them since they went down replacements have been in the door for two years (see Mile Jedinak) and as such feature on your list. They've also spent 10s of millions on squad improvement over the last few years (Kodije, Hogan, hourihane) to name but a few. They also blew a big chunk of their budget paying JT's wages this summer.

There's no argument here I'm afraid, the fact is our investment has been on the slide for a few years now. I don't blame KA for that, the club needs to act accordingly. But at the end of the day you get what you pay for in football and I don't think the players are good enough - to be frank.

Anything outside of the relegation zone is above expectations for me, it's my opinion it may not be right but it is based on facts.
Totally agree with your right to express your opinion, but I don't see the facts to back it up. Nor can I see any facts that suggest Parky is doing a good job which is central to the original question and despite asking you still haven't provided anything other than opinion. It was you after all who avoided the original question by effectively asking a different question that changed the focus to the players.
I agree Parky hasn't had much money but that isn't the be all and end all of management. I guess that leaves us with speculating about whether or not a different manager might do a better job with this squad and I happen to think some managers could. Me for starters Smile

T.R.O.Y


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
I said I’d get to the rest of your post once we’d clarified the first point regarding investment - which you haven’t. Including sales makes no sense as I’ve detailed above so need you to clarify that one.

Money isn’t the be all and end all, you can be successful on the cheap, but those occasions are the exception rather than the rule and our finances/budgets have been squeezed for what, 3 years now? With that quality falls. 

Here’s why I think Parky’s performance is okay this season.

1. We have the lowest spend on transfers in the league this season
2. We have one of the lowest wage bills, that continues to fall yoy (remember the wage cap?)
3. We sold our most important player in January and didn’t replace him
4. We are not in the bottom 3.

By the argument yourself and Martin make, the implication is that there’s untapped quality in this squad.   Or players are underperforming, I struggle to see that. So which players are under performing? And where should this squad be aiming for given the level of quality it has?

Natasha Whittam

avatar
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
T.R.O.Y wrote:Or players are underperforming, I struggle to see that. So which players are under performing?

Would you agree that a professional footballer should be able to pass a ball 5 yards? We have a team full of players scared of the ball - they wouldn't have made it this far in football if that was the case at previous clubs.

They are underperforming because they can't even do the basics right.

T.R.O.Y


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
I can’t think of any players in the team who were playing better for their previous clubs than they are for us (any who have come from other Championship clubs anyway).  Partly we’d never have been able to sign them otherwise.

But if you look at the first team, Alnwick had been a good signing, Little was berated by Bristol fans, Wheater is improved since Parky came in (by his own admission), rate Robinson myself, Henry’s been a good signing, Ameobi playing the most football he ever has (and probably his best) and he got a lot out of Madine. I just don’t think that the best of this lot is enough, we’re lacking a bit of quality throughout.

Natasha Whittam

avatar
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
T.R.O.Y wrote:I can’t think of any players in the team who were playing better for their previous clubs than they are for us (any who have come from other Championship clubs anyway).  Partly we’d never have been able to sign them otherwise.

But if you look at the first team, Alnwick had been a good signing, Little was berated by Bristol fans, Wheater is improved since Parky came in (by his own admission), rate Robinson myself, Henry’s been a good signing, Ameobi playing the most football he ever has (and probably his best) and he got a lot out of Madine. I just don’t think that the best of this lot is enough, we’re lacking a bit of quality throughout.

I'm not arguing we lack quality, but at some time all these players have been deemed good enough to be paid to play football. Surely any professional footballer has to be comfortable with the ball at his feet?

I'm just saying that if these twats actually did the basics right we'd have half a chance. Average skills and 100% commitment can go a long way. Sadly we've lacked both in recent games.

Cajunboy

avatar
Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
I think we may be doomed.

T.R.O.Y


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
Agree with all of that Nat, I said when Lennon took us down that you can get a long way in this division with just effort and organisation. And I think we've had them for most of the season, but have lost it in the last 3 games - but it is just 3 games, it's still in our hands.

boltonbonce

avatar
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Nat's right about the passing. A basic skill of the game most times seems beyond them.

When it comes to Buckley,passing doesn't really matter. He couldn't control a ball with a chair and a whip.

Soul Kitchen

avatar
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
We need four points from the next two games, any less and Saturday night will be a relegation wake I'm afraid.

boltonbonce

avatar
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Soul Kitchen wrote:We need four points from the next two games, any less and Saturday night will be a relegation wake I'm afraid.
We don't actually need any more points. Just need those below us to lose all their games. Very Happy

Soul Kitchen

avatar
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
Not if you want to determine your own destiny bonce!
I had all this shit with one mon last Tuesday who said we could afford to only draw with Birmingham.
We need to beat Barnsley for them to lose in case you hadn't noticed?

boltonbonce

avatar
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Soul Kitchen wrote:Not if you want to determine your own destiny bonce!
I had all this shit with one mon last Tuesday who said we could afford to only draw with Birmingham.
We need to beat Barnsley for them to lose in case you hadn't noticed?
Unfortunately,we'll lose to Millwall,Barnsley and Wolves. Probably lose against Burton too.

Such is life.

Soul Kitchen

avatar
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
Exactly, hence my relegation wake comment. Last Tuesday was the defining game of the season.

Soul Kitchen

avatar
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
Nat's comments re. passing the ball are spot on!
It's not rocket science but playing triangles when you can't pass the ball is pretty futile.
One player based on last year we've missed is Spearing imo.

wanderlust

avatar
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
I think it's the lack of quality in possession that keeps Parky (and "TROY") thinking that we still need a "target man" now Madine has left. We don't and Parky should have changed the system and selection the minute he was out the door instead of sticking with a system that was dependent on Madine. We have one of the best passers in the division in Kirchhoff when fit and we have pacy forwards who can run in behind but don't get near the pitch, but for some reason we are stuck with a failing system and what is beginning to look like cronyism in the team selection process.
Yes the players need to step up e.g. Vela who has not been at his game recently, but the manager doesn't help setting the team up in a way that's geared to a player we no longer have.

karlypants

avatar
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Here you go Martin. Just for you! Very Happy

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

T.R.O.Y


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
wanderlust wrote:I think it's the lack of quality in possession that keeps Parky (and "TROY") thinking that we still need a "target man" now Madine has left. We don't and Parky should have changed the system and selection the minute he was out the door instead of sticking with a system that was dependent on Madine. We have one of the best passers in the division in Kirchhoff when fit and we have pacy forwards who can run in behind but don't get near the pitch, but for some reason we are stuck with a failing system and what is beginning to look like cronyism in the team selection process.
Yes the players need to step up e.g. Vela who has not been at his game recently, but the manager doesn't help setting the team up in a way that's geared to a player we no longer have.

Kirchoff is one of the best passers in the division is a bizarre thing to say and strikes me that you don’t know the first thing about him. I rate him highly from his time at Sunderland, and he can knock a ball about but he’s never been known for his passing - what are you basing that on? Because you clearly haven’t seen much of him play. 

Who are these pacy forwards that can’t get in the team? Walker? What did he do when he was playing? Again bizarre thing to claim.

Parkinson’s limited as a manager - that’s why he’s at Bolton. So yes he wants to play with a target man, which makes Ken’s decision to sell our only decent target man even more damaging.

Back to top  Message [Page 4 of 5]

Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum