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Brexit negotiations

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1 Brexit negotiations on Fri Sep 21 2018, 11:07

Sluffy

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Admin
@wanderlust wrote:
@Sluffy wrote:
@wanderlust wrote:
@Sluffy wrote:
@xmiles wrote:MPs are not bound by how their constituencies voted on brexit. It was a referendum which was meant to advise parliament but in no sense does it bind the MPs to vote the way their constituents voted.

MPs often ignore what their constituents want. The most obvious example would be the free votes held in the past on the death penalty.

You are correct in what you say but there clearly was an overwhelming Brexit vote in the Parliamentary constituencies of all political persuasions that it was clear what the country wanted, even though the actual overall total vote was quite close in itself.
30% of Tory constituencies, 40% of Labour constituencies and 100% of the minority party constituencies (apart from 2 LD) voted to Remain at the original referendum so it's clear that if these MPs wanted to represent their electorate they would and should decline the party Whip.
Moreover, Augusts independent poll showed that 113 constituencies that originally voted Leave have now switched to Remain so what's the story with those MPs? Shouldn't they also decline the party Whip?

Well yes they should because they are clearly putting party politics ahead of the wishes of the people that elected them.

So taken your percentages as stated that leaves 70% of Conservative and 60% of Labour constituencies voted for Brexit.

In the 2015 General election Conservatives won 330 seats (or 231 for Brexit) and Labour (or 139 for Brexit)

As there are 650 seats in Parliament that totals (including the two Lib Dem seats you mention voted for Brexit) 372 seats for Brexit and only 278 for Remain or roughly 57% to 43% in favour for Brexit.

A clear and unequivocal mandate from the country.

As for poll predictions, they have been notoriously wrong in recent years - not least in predicting the outcome of the referendum!

The only known mandate MP's have is how their constituents actually voted when they did.

The only way to gauge the final right of leaving the EU is by putting the final result of the country's negotiation to leave again to the country to vote on.

That's what I'd try to make happen if I were an elected MP of any party and whether I supported Brexit or not.


Not sure about your logic here when the point was about whether or not MPs should represent the wishes of their constituents or be told by their party that they should go against what their constituents have asked them to do.
Even with your dodgy figures it means that 278 MPs defied the wishes of their constituents and if the polls are accurate, or even if they are 10% out - which is highly unusual as the average error margin is 2% - it means that currently the majority of MPs in this country are going along with Brexit against the wishes of their constituents.

Are you are arguing that opinion polls have been notoriously wrong in recent years and yet the EU membership opinion poll was unquestionably right?  

The passing of time is an interesting factor too. The parties are insisting on carrying through the views expressed in an opinion poll that took place two years ago but times have changed so why the fixation with pushing through a marginal historical opinion poll?

I used your figures you moron!

The 278 MP's which include the 'rebels' and the rest of the minor party's who voted to remain, still couldn't overturn a the majority 372 MP's in Parliamentary votes - so nothing would change you muppet!

Even if we used your dreamt of figure of a 10% switch from Brexit to remain for all the MP's then the 372 following the Brexit mandated by the public would drop by 37 to 335 and conversely the rebels and the representing Remain constituencies (as per the referendum) would increase by 37 to 315 and the Brexit mandated by the public vote would still remain!

The opinion polls at the time of the referendum predicted a Remain result - so how could I possibly be arguing that they were "unquestionably right" ffs???

Finally elections are held to give the winner of them a period of time to carry out their manifesto, that period of time in this country is usually five years for MP's (four years for local councillors).  You don't call elections every two years because nothing would ever be achieved in that time.  Similarly referendums aren't voted on every two minutes for the same reason.

Like it or not - and you clearly don't - the public have voted and given Parliament a mandate for Brexit.  Even if all the MP's whose constituents didn't vote for Brexit formed a united opposition, they would still be in a considerable minority in Parliament and could not stop the will of the people as voted for in the referendum.

Even in your make believe world a further 10% of Brexit voting constituency MP's now somehow believed they should be against it, there would STILL be a majority in Parliament carrying out the peoples will of the Brexit vote.

Until a further public vote is made on Brexit no polls can say for certain that the majority of people still mandate it - or not.

A referendum on the final decision made between the Government and the EU would give the public the chance to mandate that they still wish to leave or reject the terms and wish to remain.

And that is what I would hope all MP's whether they support Brexit or Remain would wish to do as then everybody will have their chance to have a final say on the matter and willingly or not accept the final outcome.

2 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Sep 21 2018, 14:02

wanderlust

avatar
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Sluffy wrote:
@wanderlust wrote:
@Sluffy wrote:
@wanderlust wrote:
@Sluffy wrote:
@xmiles wrote:MPs are not bound by how their constituencies voted on brexit. It was a referendum which was meant to advise parliament but in no sense does it bind the MPs to vote the way their constituents voted.

MPs often ignore what their constituents want. The most obvious example would be the free votes held in the past on the death penalty.

You are correct in what you say but there clearly was an overwhelming Brexit vote in the Parliamentary constituencies of all political persuasions that it was clear what the country wanted, even though the actual overall total vote was quite close in itself.
30% of Tory constituencies, 40% of Labour constituencies and 100% of the minority party constituencies (apart from 2 LD) voted to Remain at the original referendum so it's clear that if these MPs wanted to represent their electorate they would and should decline the party Whip.
Moreover, Augusts independent poll showed that 113 constituencies that originally voted Leave have now switched to Remain so what's the story with those MPs? Shouldn't they also decline the party Whip?

Well yes they should because they are clearly putting party politics ahead of the wishes of the people that elected them.

So taken your percentages as stated that leaves 70% of Conservative and 60% of Labour constituencies voted for Brexit.

In the 2015 General election Conservatives won 330 seats (or 231 for Brexit) and Labour (or 139 for Brexit)

As there are 650 seats in Parliament that totals (including the two Lib Dem seats you mention voted for Brexit) 372 seats for Brexit and only 278 for Remain or roughly 57% to 43% in favour for Brexit.

A clear and unequivocal mandate from the country.

As for poll predictions, they have been notoriously wrong in recent years - not least in predicting the outcome of the referendum!

The only known mandate MP's have is how their constituents actually voted when they did.

The only way to gauge the final right of leaving the EU is by putting the final result of the country's negotiation to leave again to the country to vote on.

That's what I'd try to make happen if I were an elected MP of any party and whether I supported Brexit or not.


Not sure about your logic here when the point was about whether or not MPs should represent the wishes of their constituents or be told by their party that they should go against what their constituents have asked them to do.
Even with your dodgy figures it means that 278 MPs defied the wishes of their constituents and if the polls are accurate, or even if they are 10% out - which is highly unusual as the average error margin is 2% - it means that currently the majority of MPs in this country are going along with Brexit against the wishes of their constituents.

Are you are arguing that opinion polls have been notoriously wrong in recent years and yet the EU membership opinion poll was unquestionably right?  

The passing of time is an interesting factor too. The parties are insisting on carrying through the views expressed in an opinion poll that took place two years ago but times have changed so why the fixation with pushing through a marginal historical opinion poll?

I used your figures you moron!

The 278 MP's which include the 'rebels' and the rest of the minor party's who voted to remain, still couldn't overturn a the majority 372 MP's in Parliamentary votes - so nothing would change you muppet!

Even if we used your dreamt of figure of a 10% switch from Brexit to remain for all the MP's then the 372 following the Brexit mandated by the public would drop by 37 to 335 and conversely the rebels and the representing Remain constituencies (as per the referendum) would increase by 37 to 315 and the Brexit mandated by the public vote would still remain!

The opinion polls at the time of the referendum predicted a Remain result - so how could I possibly be arguing that they were "unquestionably right" ffs???

Finally elections are held to give the winner of them a period of time to carry out their manifesto, that period of time in this country is usually five years for MP's (four years for local councillors).  You don't call elections every two years because nothing would ever be achieved in that time.  Similarly referendums aren't voted on every two minutes for the same reason.

Like it or not - and you clearly don't - the public have voted and given Parliament a mandate for Brexit.  Even if all the MP's whose constituents didn't vote for Brexit formed a united opposition, they would still be in a considerable minority in Parliament and could not stop the will of the people as voted for in the referendum.

Even in your make believe world a further 10% of Brexit voting constituency MP's now somehow believed they should be against it, there would STILL be a majority in Parliament carrying out the peoples will of the Brexit vote.

Until a further public vote is made on Brexit no polls can say for certain that the majority of people still mandate it - or not.

A referendum on the final decision made between the Government and the EU would give the public the chance to mandate that they still wish to leave or reject the terms and wish to remain.

And that is what I would hope all MP's whether they support Brexit or Remain would wish to do as then everybody will have their chance to have a final say on the matter and willingly or not accept the final outcome.
You're a bit thick aren't you?
And not very good at reading.
Or understanding.
You don't understand the difference between partial referendum of a section of the voting public and a referendum which requires all eligible voters to participate. Around 3 million ex pats were denied the vote that they are entitled to in an election so it was a partial referendum, not a proper referendum.
You don't understand that that particular opinion poll - the referendum - is being used as a "mandate" whilst you simultaneously decry all other opinion polls - a point you have spectacularly misunderstood above. And FYI analysis of predictions against the actual results have proven that the average variance is 2% despite the attempts to denigrate polls in the media.
You don't understand that opinions change and that the people are systematically being denied their voice.
And you don't understand that the question I raised was about party dogma v free vote.
Perhaps you should leave politics to the grownups although TBF you were close to the issue when you touched on the free vote on the death penalty in one of your earlier lectures.

3 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Sep 21 2018, 14:20

luckyPeterpiper

avatar
Frank Worthington
Frank Worthington
lusty, with respect on the ex-pats issue I believe you're plain wrong. Since by definition ex-pats do not live in the UK they aren't likely to be materially affected by Brexit and frankly shouldn't have a say in matters about a country in which they no longer reside.

Put it this way, my mother was Scottish and I was born in Glasgow but we moved to Manchester when I was two years old. As a result when there was a referendum concerning Scottish independence from the UK I, like many other Scots born people living elsewhere did NOT get a vote and frankly I believe that was right.

Now, as to people's opinion changing on Brexit. I think it should be noted that those who most strongly favoured leaving the EU were the over 60's, in other words the part of our population least likely to have to live with the consequences in the long term. In my humble opinion when you look at the demographics in terms of age the young and middle aged were solidly in favour of remain and frankly I think it's a travesty that both groups will now pay the price for their forebear's short sighted 'Little England' thinking.

Basically Farage and the rest of the Brexit crowd played on fear, ignorance and outright bigotry with lots of help from the Murdoch owned papers and websites. Unfortunately though, this is a democracy and whether we agree or not the majority of voters said Leave. Whether they still feel that was right or not is for the moment beside the point. Article 50 was invoked and whether or not we like it we're out of the EU next year.

Finally, as to the assertion we should have a vote or referendum on the final deal. This is a moot point since there won't be a deal. There is no way the other 27 members of the EU will unanimously ratify anything that appears to treat Britain well. We'll be out and using WTO rules only no matter how hard May and her colleagues try to make us believe otherwise.

Frankly this is going to be a disaster for the UK and our kids will pay for it for years. But sadly the truth is we brought it on ourselves not just with the referendum but with the way our media and our people have spoken about Europe and it's inhabitants for the last several decades.

4 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Sep 21 2018, 15:22

Sluffy

avatar
Admin
@wanderlust wrote:You're a bit thick aren't you?
And not very good at reading.
Or understanding.
You don't understand the difference between partial referendum of a section of the voting public and a referendum which requires all eligible voters to participate. Around 3 million ex pats were denied the vote that they are entitled to in an election so it was a partial referendum, not a proper referendum.
You don't understand that that particular opinion poll - the referendum - is being used as a "mandate" whilst you simultaneously decry all other opinion polls - a point you have spectacularly misunderstood above. And FYI analysis of predictions against the actual results have proven that the average variance is 2% despite the attempts to denigrate polls in the media.
You don't understand that opinions change and that the people are systematically being denied their voice.
And you don't understand that the question I raised was about party dogma v free vote.
Perhaps you should leave politics to the grownups although TBF you were close to the issue when you touched on the free vote on the death penalty in one of your earlier lectures.

There's no point trying to enlighten those that chose not to see, is there?

Quite frankly you've got the same problem Bread has - everybody is wrong apart from you, that you believe you are somehow far smarter and superior to everyone else and you dismiss everybody else's facts, opinions and general replies you don't agree with, with distain and personal abuse.

You come across as an obnoxious 'know it all' on the forum, which I hope for your own sake is just an act you put on for here and not how you are in real life - but I suspect it isn't.

You're entitled to your views and opinions no matter how wrong or self focused they may be but in reality all you are doing is simply demonstrating your closed mind and sheer ignorance to how things are, in this case being the free and democratic elected representation of this country (the mother of all Parliament's remember!) and how it governs based on the mandate given to it by the people - simply because it isn't giving YOU the result YOU want.

You simply act like a very spoilt (and nasty) child who cant get his own way instead.

5 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Sep 21 2018, 16:06

wanderlust

avatar
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Sluffy wrote:
@wanderlust wrote:You're a bit thick aren't you?
And not very good at reading.
Or understanding.
You don't understand the difference between partial referendum of a section of the voting public and a referendum which requires all eligible voters to participate. Around 3 million ex pats were denied the vote that they are entitled to in an election so it was a partial referendum, not a proper referendum.
You don't understand that that particular opinion poll - the referendum - is being used as a "mandate" whilst you simultaneously decry all other opinion polls - a point you have spectacularly misunderstood above. And FYI analysis of predictions against the actual results have proven that the average variance is 2% despite the attempts to denigrate polls in the media.
You don't understand that opinions change and that the people are systematically being denied their voice.
And you don't understand that the question I raised was about party dogma v free vote.
Perhaps you should leave politics to the grownups although TBF you were close to the issue when you touched on the free vote on the death penalty in one of your earlier lectures.

Quite frankly you've got the same problem Bread has - everybody is wrong apart from you, that you believe you are somehow far smarter and superior to everyone else and you dismiss everybody else's facts, opinions and general replies you don't agree with, with distain and personal abuse.

You come across as an obnoxious 'know it all' on the forum, which I hope for your own sake is just an act you put on for here and not how you are in real life - but I suspect it isn't.

You're entitled to your views and opinions no matter how wrong or self focused they may be but in reality all you are doing is simply demonstrating your closed mind and sheer ignorance to how things are, in this case being the free and democratic elected representation of this country (the mother of all Parliament's remember!) and how it governs based on the mandate given to it by the people - simply because it isn't giving YOU the result YOU want.

You simply act like a very spoilt (and nasty) child who cant get his own way instead.
Amateur psychologist now or have you been reading the tea leaves?

Anyway some good Brexit reporting this week:

EU tells May the Chequers plan won't work and has just 4 weeks to avoid a no deal - I thought JRM's "Chequers Goes Pop" line was amusing albeit for different reasons.

Hungarian leader Viktor Orban sides with May and reckons some EU leaders want to "punish" the UK.

Macron attacks the leading Brexiteers and accuses them of lying to the British public. Quote "This is all the more true because they left the next day, so they didn't have to manage it"

And to top it off, a leaked Tory internal memo says Theresa May will be forced to "stand down soon after March 2019". The dossier also detailed the pros and cons of potential successors.

6 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Sep 21 2018, 17:32

gloswhite

avatar
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha
Something I have always wondered is, what if there is a second referendum, but on whether we accept the EU offer or not. Why do some people think the default for no acceptance, will be to stay with the EU ?
Surely, if the deal is refused, we carry on to a no deal, and still come out of the EU ?

7 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Sep 21 2018, 17:38

karlypants

avatar
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@gloswhite wrote:Something I have always wondered is, what if there is a second referendum, but on whether we accept the EU offer or not. Why do some people think the default for no acceptance, will be to stay with the EU ?
Surely, if the deal is refused, we carry on to a no deal, and still come out of the EU ?

We all want a no deal Brexit but in here has become a toddlers playground with some posters now Glos.

I don't know why Sluffy and Nat bother as it's better to leave the remoaners to it!

It's better to stay out Very Happy

8 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Sep 21 2018, 17:42

gloswhite

avatar
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha
I learned this a while ago KP, and that's why you won't see any actual opinions on the topic, from myself.

9 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Sep 21 2018, 18:19

wanderlust

avatar
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@gloswhite wrote:Something I have always wondered is, what if there is a second referendum, but on whether we accept the EU offer or not. Why do some people think the default for no acceptance, will be to stay with the EU ?
Surely, if the deal is refused, we carry on to a no deal, and still come out of the EU ?
Does anyone think that the default is to remain in the EU? I've never heard anyone say that before.

The option of staying in was taken away by the Government last year (illegally I believe) and now  a no-deal scenario seems likely - or does it? Some people say that May will make last minute further concessions and the no deal thing is just hype so they can say she saved the day.

As for us remainers, we post on here because the only developments in the negotiations point to more and more misery down the road on top of the misery it has caused already. If there was any good news about Brexit whatsoever the leavers would be all over it, but there isn't - that's the real reason we don't hear from them.

Obviously if there is anything at all positive to say about the way the Brexit negotiations are going we'd love to hear it because we all need cheering up.

Anything? Anything at all?

10 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Sep 21 2018, 18:24

karlypants

avatar
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Two words Wander, two words...

11 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Sep 21 2018, 19:04

T.R.O.Y


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
@karlypants wrote:
@gloswhite wrote:Something I have always wondered is, what if there is a second referendum, but on whether we accept the EU offer or not. Why do some people think the default for no acceptance, will be to stay with the EU ?
Surely, if the deal is refused, we carry on to a no deal, and still come out of the EU ?

We all want a no deal Brexit but in here has become a toddlers playground with some posters now Glos.

I don't know why Sluffy and Nat bother as it's better to leave the remoaners to it!

It's better to stay out Very Happy

I don’t think all leave voters do want a no deal though Karly, that’s the issue. What leaving means has never been properly defined.

12 Re: Brexit negotiations on Sat Sep 22 2018, 02:35

xmiles

avatar
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
@karlypants wrote:Two words Wander, two words...

The two words that describe the benefits of brexit are fuck all.

13 Re: Brexit negotiations on Sat Sep 22 2018, 02:37

xmiles

avatar
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
Theresa May: EU must respect UK in Brexit talks. Result

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45604230

14 Re: Brexit negotiations on Sat Sep 22 2018, 09:11

Natasha Whittam

avatar
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
It's clear xmiles & wanderlust want our PM to roll over and do things to suit the EU.

Good on her for standing her ground. We're British, we don't let other countries dictate to us.

Xmiles & wanderlust should fuck off to France, it's clear they are kindred spirits.

15 Re: Brexit negotiations on Sat Sep 22 2018, 09:57

T.R.O.Y


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
She’s just completely ballsed up the negotiations, Chequers was never going to be accepted - not even her own cabinet accepted it. She’s too weak to come up with a feasible solution as she’s more bothered about staying in power.

If you want to put up with sub standard leaders then move to Belarus.

16 Re: Brexit negotiations on Sat Sep 22 2018, 09:59

Natasha Whittam

avatar
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@T.R.O.Y wrote:She’s just completely ballsed up the negotiations, Chequers was never going to be accepted - not even her own cabinet accepted it. She’s too weak to come up with a feasible solution as she’s more bothered about staying in power.

What a load of shite. She's there to get the best deal for the UK, if that takes time then so be it.

Weak she most definitely isn't. Perhaps she's finally learning a trick or two from my hero, Maggie T.



17 Re: Brexit negotiations on Sat Sep 22 2018, 10:02

karlypants

avatar
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
I’ve never liked Theresa fucking May. She’s a bloody remainer so how is she going to get the best deal for th UK when she really wants to stay in?

Time to boot her out and have a PM that supports brexit 100%.

18 Re: Brexit negotiations on Sat Sep 22 2018, 10:18

T.R.O.Y


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
She knows full well the best deal isn’t leaving the single market, but she’s pandering to the right in her party to stay in power. If she was stronger she’d fuck them off and do what she believes is right for the country.

One ‘I’ve got nothing to lose’ speech achieves nothing but impress a couple of tabloids.

19 Re: Brexit negotiations on Sat Sep 22 2018, 11:34

xmiles

avatar
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo

20 Re: Brexit negotiations on Sat Sep 22 2018, 11:39

Dunkels King

avatar
Nicolas Anelka
Nicolas Anelka
@luckyPeterpiper wrote:lusty, with respect on the ex-pats issue I believe you're plain wrong. Since by definition ex-pats do not live in the UK they aren't likely to be materially affected by Brexit and frankly shouldn't have a say in matters about a country in which they no longer reside.

Put it this way, my mother was Scottish and I was born in Glasgow but we moved to Manchester when I was two years old. As a result when there was a referendum concerning Scottish independence from the UK I, like many other Scots born people living elsewhere did NOT get a vote and frankly I believe that was right.

Now, as to people's opinion changing on Brexit. I think it should be noted that those who most strongly favoured leaving the EU were the over 60's, in other words the part of our population least likely to have to live with the consequences in the long term. In my humble opinion when you look at the demographics in terms of age the young and middle aged were solidly in favour of remain and frankly I think it's a travesty that both groups will now pay the price for their forebear's short sighted 'Little England' thinking.

Basically Farage and the rest of the Brexit crowd played on fear, ignorance and outright bigotry with lots of help from the Murdoch owned papers and websites. Unfortunately though, this is a democracy and whether we agree or not the majority of voters said Leave. Whether they still feel that was right or not is for the moment beside the point. Article 50 was invoked and whether or not we like it we're out of the EU next year.

Finally, as to the assertion we should have a vote or referendum on the final deal. This is a moot point since there won't be a deal. There is no way the other 27 members of the EU will unanimously ratify anything that appears to treat Britain well. We'll be out and using WTO rules only no matter how hard May and her colleagues try to make us believe otherwise.

Frankly this is going to be a disaster for the UK and our kids will pay for it for years. But sadly the truth is we brought it on ourselves not just with the referendum but with the way our media and our people have spoken about Europe and it's inhabitants for the last several decades.


Well, I am an ex-pat, but I am a British Citizen. So where do I stand ? In Germany I cannot vote in their Elections because I am a Foreigner. I am British so I can still vote in the English Elections. Why should I be allowed to do that, and also why should I have been allowed a vote in the Referendum I hear you say ? It's simple. I paid in to the UK all the time I worked there. I still pay NI contributions in to the UK even though I live and work in Germany. I moved here based on an agreement of free movement in Europe. With that in mind it meant I could go and work in any of the other 27 Countries if (like it did in the UK) the shit hits the fan. Now, because of a load of older people and a load of xenophobic, easily tricked people (by that I mean morons like the guy from Barnsley who was on TV and said he voted leave because of all the Pakistanis and Indians coming in to the Country) if I lose my job here I am now forced to either find something here or move back to the UK. I have lost the chance to find work in one of the other EU Countries. Oh, and that's not being selfish thinking that way, it's simply being mightily pissed off that my life could be impacted by a decision that I could have no say in. That's the point, us ex-pats are MORE affected by this than anyone who lives in the UK, because 99% of the people who voted leave, probably even 100% had no interest to work overseas anyway. They just fucked it up for everyone else, and whilst I am on a bit of a rant, 52/48 is not "the peoples will". It is pretty much half of the vote and in an Election would not be a majority that would give you power, so it's bullshit anyway, and Referendum by definition is an opinion gathering excercise.

Rant over Smile

21 Re: Brexit negotiations on Sat Sep 22 2018, 11:48

Dunkels King

avatar
Nicolas Anelka
Nicolas Anelka
@Natasha Whittam wrote:
@T.R.O.Y wrote:She’s just completely ballsed up the negotiations, Chequers was never going to be accepted - not even her own cabinet accepted it. She’s too weak to come up with a feasible solution as she’s more bothered about staying in power.

What a load of shite. She's there to get the best deal for the UK, if that takes time then so be it.

Weak she most definitely isn't. Perhaps she's finally learning a trick or two from my hero, Maggie T.




She isn't trying to get the best deal for the UK. She's trying to stay in power by pretending to be Maggie Thatcher. The trouble is, Maggie did what she thought was best for the UK. Theresa May can't do that because the 52/48 split fucked up any chance of that. You also have to remember, in the long run, none of these Politicians will give a fuck. They're all loaded and will all be in their Ivory Towers looking down on the great unwashed whilst swigging Champagne. Serioulsy, for her to threaten the EU is quite unbelievable. The UK tells Europe to fuck off then expects to be treated with respect ? There is plenty of respect from Europe. At the end of the day it is entirely up to THE UK to come up with what it wants - and clearly, they have no idea whatsoever still - before the EU can make a decision about it. I still think Brexit will be Brino. We get a Norwegian model. We are not in the EU, but we accept free movement and free trade. The net cost to the UK for that deal will be twice as much as when we were in the EU and without any voting rights on the regulations that we signed up to, but at least everyone will have a Black/Bluish Passport (Made in France) and get to see a British Doctor or Nurse probably sometime in the next 18 months whenever they are sick.

22 Re: Brexit negotiations on Sat Sep 22 2018, 11:50

xmiles

avatar
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
@Dunkels King wrote:
@luckyPeterpiper wrote:lusty, with respect on the ex-pats issue I believe you're plain wrong. Since by definition ex-pats do not live in the UK they aren't likely to be materially affected by Brexit and frankly shouldn't have a say in matters about a country in which they no longer reside.

Put it this way, my mother was Scottish and I was born in Glasgow but we moved to Manchester when I was two years old. As a result when there was a referendum concerning Scottish independence from the UK I, like many other Scots born people living elsewhere did NOT get a vote and frankly I believe that was right.

Now, as to people's opinion changing on Brexit. I think it should be noted that those who most strongly favoured leaving the EU were the over 60's, in other words the part of our population least likely to have to live with the consequences in the long term. In my humble opinion when you look at the demographics in terms of age the young and middle aged were solidly in favour of remain and frankly I think it's a travesty that both groups will now pay the price for their forebear's short sighted 'Little England' thinking.

Basically Farage and the rest of the Brexit crowd played on fear, ignorance and outright bigotry with lots of help from the Murdoch owned papers and websites. Unfortunately though, this is a democracy and whether we agree or not the majority of voters said Leave. Whether they still feel that was right or not is for the moment beside the point. Article 50 was invoked and whether or not we like it we're out of the EU next year.

Finally, as to the assertion we should have a vote or referendum on the final deal. This is a moot point since there won't be a deal. There is no way the other 27 members of the EU will unanimously ratify anything that appears to treat Britain well. We'll be out and using WTO rules only no matter how hard May and her colleagues try to make us believe otherwise.

Frankly this is going to be a disaster for the UK and our kids will pay for it for years. But sadly the truth is we brought it on ourselves not just with the referendum but with the way our media and our people have spoken about Europe and it's inhabitants for the last several decades.


Well, I am an ex-pat, but I am a British Citizen. So where do I stand ? In Germany I cannot vote in their Elections because I am a Foreigner. I am British so I can still vote in the English Elections. Why should I be allowed to do that, and also why should I have been allowed a vote in the Referendum I hear you say ? It's simple. I paid in to the UK all the time I worked there. I still pay NI contributions in to the UK even though I live and work in Germany. I moved here based on an agreement of free movement in Europe. With that in mind it meant I could go and work in any of the other 27 Countries if (like it did in the UK) the shit hits the fan. Now, because of a load of older people and a load of xenophobic, easily tricked people (by that I mean morons like the guy from Barnsley who was on TV and said he voted leave because of all the Pakistanis and Indians coming in to the Country) if I lose my job here I am now forced to either find something here or move back to the UK. I have lost the chance to find work in one of the other EU Countries. Oh, and that's not being selfish thinking that way, it's simply being mightily pissed off that my life could be impacted by a decision that I could have no say in. That's the point, us ex-pats are MORE affected by this than anyone who lives in the UK, because 99% of the people who voted leave, probably even 100% had no interest to work overseas anyway. They just fucked it up for everyone else, and whilst I am on a bit of a rant, 52/48 is not "the peoples will". It is pretty much half of the vote and in an Election would not be a majority that would give you power, so it's bullshit anyway, and Referendum by definition is an opinion gathering excercise.

Rant over Smile

Good points DK. As for the "peoples will" only just over a third of those eligible to vote actually voted for brexit (including that moron in Barnsley).

Incidentally he might be interested to know that thanks to brexit we are likely to see more Indians and Pakistanis entering the country to fill all those job vacancies caused by the lack of europeans who won't be coming anymore.

23 Re: Brexit negotiations on Sat Sep 22 2018, 12:11

karlypants

avatar
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Dunkels King wrote:
Well, I am an ex-pat, but I am a British Citizen. So where do I stand ? In Germany I cannot vote in their Elections because I am a Foreigner. I am British so I can still vote in the English Elections. Why should I be allowed to do that, and also why should I have been allowed a vote in the Referendum I hear you say ? It's simple. I paid in to the UK all the time I worked there. I still pay NI contributions in to the UK even though I live and work in Germany. I moved here based on an agreement of free movement in Europe. With that in mind it meant I could go and work in any of the other 27 Countries if (like it did in the UK) the shit hits the fan. Now, because of a load of older people and a load of xenophobic, easily tricked people (by that I mean morons like the guy from Barnsley who was on TV and said he voted leave because of all the Pakistanis and Indians coming in to the Country) if I lose my job here I am now forced to either find something here or move back to the UK. I have lost the chance to find work in one of the other EU Countries. Oh, and that's not being selfish thinking that way, it's simply being mightily pissed off that my life could be impacted by a decision that I could have no say in. That's the point, us ex-pats are MORE affected by this than anyone who lives in the UK, because 99% of the people who voted leave, probably even 100% had no interest to work overseas anyway. They just fucked it up for everyone else, and whilst I am on a bit of a rant, 52/48 is not "the peoples will". It is pretty much half of the vote and in an Election would not be a majority that would give you power, so it's bullshit anyway, and Referendum by definition is an opinion gathering excercise.

Rant over Smile

Because you don't pay any bloody tax here so why should you be entitled to have a vote? You don't live here anymore so your interests should lie in Germany then. It is up to them if they allow you to vote or not there.

You pay the NI contributions to safe guard your state pension.

It does not matter if you paid tax and NI up until you left the UK to work in another country.

There's so many things wrong with this post it's unbelievable!

24 Re: Brexit negotiations on Sat Sep 22 2018, 12:44

xmiles

avatar
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
@karlypants wrote:
@Dunkels King wrote:
Well, I am an ex-pat, but I am a British Citizen. So where do I stand ? In Germany I cannot vote in their Elections because I am a Foreigner. I am British so I can still vote in the English Elections. Why should I be allowed to do that, and also why should I have been allowed a vote in the Referendum I hear you say ? It's simple. I paid in to the UK all the time I worked there. I still pay NI contributions in to the UK even though I live and work in Germany. I moved here based on an agreement of free movement in Europe. With that in mind it meant I could go and work in any of the other 27 Countries if (like it did in the UK) the shit hits the fan. Now, because of a load of older people and a load of xenophobic, easily tricked people (by that I mean morons like the guy from Barnsley who was on TV and said he voted leave because of all the Pakistanis and Indians coming in to the Country) if I lose my job here I am now forced to either find something here or move back to the UK. I have lost the chance to find work in one of the other EU Countries. Oh, and that's not being selfish thinking that way, it's simply being mightily pissed off that my life could be impacted by a decision that I could have no say in. That's the point, us ex-pats are MORE affected by this than anyone who lives in the UK, because 99% of the people who voted leave, probably even 100% had no interest to work overseas anyway. They just fucked it up for everyone else, and whilst I am on a bit of a rant, 52/48 is not "the peoples will". It is pretty much half of the vote and in an Election would not be a majority that would give you power, so it's bullshit anyway, and Referendum by definition is an opinion gathering excercise.

Rant over Smile

Because you don't pay any bloody tax here so why should you be entitled to have a vote? You don't live here anymore so your interests should lie in Germany then. It is up to them if they allow you to vote or not there.

You pay the NI contributions to safe guard your state pension.

It does not matter if you paid tax and NI up until you left the UK to work in another country.

There's so many things wrong with this post it's unbelievable!

So karly you think expats should not have a vote in British elections and referendums?

25 Re: Brexit negotiations on Sat Sep 22 2018, 13:05

Dunkels King

avatar
Nicolas Anelka
Nicolas Anelka
@karlypants wrote:
@Dunkels King wrote:
Well, I am an ex-pat, but I am a British Citizen. So where do I stand ? In Germany I cannot vote in their Elections because I am a Foreigner. I am British so I can still vote in the English Elections. Why should I be allowed to do that, and also why should I have been allowed a vote in the Referendum I hear you say ? It's simple. I paid in to the UK all the time I worked there. I still pay NI contributions in to the UK even though I live and work in Germany. I moved here based on an agreement of free movement in Europe. With that in mind it meant I could go and work in any of the other 27 Countries if (like it did in the UK) the shit hits the fan. Now, because of a load of older people and a load of xenophobic, easily tricked people (by that I mean morons like the guy from Barnsley who was on TV and said he voted leave because of all the Pakistanis and Indians coming in to the Country) if I lose my job here I am now forced to either find something here or move back to the UK. I have lost the chance to find work in one of the other EU Countries. Oh, and that's not being selfish thinking that way, it's simply being mightily pissed off that my life could be impacted by a decision that I could have no say in. That's the point, us ex-pats are MORE affected by this than anyone who lives in the UK, because 99% of the people who voted leave, probably even 100% had no interest to work overseas anyway. They just fucked it up for everyone else, and whilst I am on a bit of a rant, 52/48 is not "the peoples will". It is pretty much half of the vote and in an Election would not be a majority that would give you power, so it's bullshit anyway, and Referendum by definition is an opinion gathering excercise.

Rant over Smile

Because you don't pay any bloody tax here so why should you be entitled to have a vote? You don't live here anymore so your interests should lie in Germany then. It is up to them if they allow you to vote or not there.

You pay the NI contributions to safe guard your state pension.

It does not matter if you paid tax and NI up until you left the UK to work in another country.

There's so many things wrong with this post it's unbelievable!

So many things wrong only in your world. I still work for a British Company who pay their taxes in the UK. So the money THEY make from me working on THEIR behalf is taxed in the UK. The money I make from THEM is taxed in Germany, but so what ? Like it or not, I am British and can return at any time I want so I have a vested interest in what is getting fucked up whilst I am away. So you are happy in your world that I shouldn't have had a vote because I don't live in the UK, therefore you must be equally pissed that the EU Citizens living in the UK couldn't vote, because you can't have it both ways. After all, they are living in the UK, paying Tax in the UK, contributing to the economy in the UK, which is everything you are arguing for reasons that I shouldn't have got a vote. So you tell me why they didn't get a vote either ?

26 Re: Brexit negotiations on Sat Sep 22 2018, 13:07

Dunkels King

avatar
Nicolas Anelka
Nicolas Anelka
@xmiles wrote:
@karlypants wrote:
@Dunkels King wrote:
Well, I am an ex-pat, but I am a British Citizen. So where do I stand ? In Germany I cannot vote in their Elections because I am a Foreigner. I am British so I can still vote in the English Elections. Why should I be allowed to do that, and also why should I have been allowed a vote in the Referendum I hear you say ? It's simple. I paid in to the UK all the time I worked there. I still pay NI contributions in to the UK even though I live and work in Germany. I moved here based on an agreement of free movement in Europe. With that in mind it meant I could go and work in any of the other 27 Countries if (like it did in the UK) the shit hits the fan. Now, because of a load of older people and a load of xenophobic, easily tricked people (by that I mean morons like the guy from Barnsley who was on TV and said he voted leave because of all the Pakistanis and Indians coming in to the Country) if I lose my job here I am now forced to either find something here or move back to the UK. I have lost the chance to find work in one of the other EU Countries. Oh, and that's not being selfish thinking that way, it's simply being mightily pissed off that my life could be impacted by a decision that I could have no say in. That's the point, us ex-pats are MORE affected by this than anyone who lives in the UK, because 99% of the people who voted leave, probably even 100% had no interest to work overseas anyway. They just fucked it up for everyone else, and whilst I am on a bit of a rant, 52/48 is not "the peoples will". It is pretty much half of the vote and in an Election would not be a majority that would give you power, so it's bullshit anyway, and Referendum by definition is an opinion gathering excercise.

Rant over Smile

Because you don't pay any bloody tax here so why should you be entitled to have a vote? You don't live here anymore so your interests should lie in Germany then. It is up to them if they allow you to vote or not there.

You pay the NI contributions to safe guard your state pension.

It does not matter if you paid tax and NI up until you left the UK to work in another country.

There's so many things wrong with this post it's unbelievable!

So karly you think expats should not have a vote in British elections and referendums?

I forgot to mention, half the people who voted Brexit probably "don't pay any bloody tax" either, and they are a burden on the UK whereas I am no burden at all. But I will be if I come back and just start scrounging benefits (something I have never done in 36 years of working) like a lot of free loaders that just blaim everything on the Smelly Eastern European Forriners (innit).

27 Re: Brexit negotiations on Sat Sep 22 2018, 13:13

Natasha Whittam

avatar
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Dunkels King wrote:I forgot to mention, half the people who voted Brexit probably "don't pay any bloody tax" either, and they are a burden on the UK whereas I am no burden at all. But I will be if I come back and just start scrounging benefits (something I have never done in 36 years of working) like a lot of free loaders that just blaim everything on the Smelly Eastern European Forriners (innit).

You've really let yourself down there DK, shameful post.

28 Re: Brexit negotiations on Sat Sep 22 2018, 13:24

Dunkels King

avatar
Nicolas Anelka
Nicolas Anelka
@Natasha Whittam wrote:
@Dunkels King wrote:I forgot to mention, half the people who voted Brexit probably "don't pay any bloody tax" either, and they are a burden on the UK whereas I am no burden at all. But I will be if I come back and just start scrounging benefits (something I have never done in 36 years of working) like a lot of free loaders that just blaim everything on the Smelly Eastern European Forriners (innit).

You've really let yourself down there DK, shameful post.

Jesus christ Nat, can't you see through that ? It's literally making a point about the irony of some people. Go back to the days after the referendum. Retarded people were actually painting on doors of Polish people, their own bloody neighbours - "Fuck off home you smelly xxxx" - down in Peterborough blaming them for not having jobs. Half those people moved back to Poland, and guess what, the places they worked are still waiting for the Brits to take up the jobs. Some people simply don't want to work. Then, what is wrong with what I said. The truth hurts sometimes. I am not a burden on the UK (fact). Lot's of people who have no desire whatsoever to ever get a job are a burden on society (fact). Did I mention anywhere in my post otherwise ? Clearly, not half the people who voted Brexit don't pay Tax otherwise there would be 9.5 Million people on the dole !

Just remembered, a while back I asked you, as a top Business Person in Lancashire, to name one thing that will be better for you and your Company post Brexit. I never saw an answer.

29 Re: Brexit negotiations on Sat Sep 22 2018, 14:19

luckyPeterpiper

avatar
Frank Worthington
Frank Worthington
Dunkels my feeling on the ex-pat issue is this. You chose to live and work outside the UK and I suspect will continue to do so after Brexit. Plus of course there are many ex-pats who retire to Spain or France or some other warmer climate. I don't begrudge anyone the right to do what they feel they need to in order to benefit themselves and their families. On the contrary I think it must have been a difficult decision to go to a foreign country and stay there.

But on the subject of Brexit I felt and still feel that only UK residents should have voted. Just as I was denied a vote in the Scottish referendum because I live and work in England despite having been born in Glasgow.

As to the other posters on here assuming that everyone wants a no-deal exit I would say they're so far off the mark it's laughable. I am and remain (pun intended) a committed supporter of our membership in the EU. I accept we're leaving but I'm absolutely certain it will be a disaster for this country. Those like Nat who seem to think it means we'll suddenly become some sort of superpower in our own right or that we'll somehow become 'free' are at best deluding themselves and at worst they're complete idiots.

A no-deal exit is a certainty for reasons I've already stated several times and if anyone thinks that will be good for Britain I would say you need professional help.

30 Re: Brexit negotiations on Sat Sep 22 2018, 15:21

Dunkels King

avatar
Nicolas Anelka
Nicolas Anelka
@luckyPeterpiper wrote:Dunkels my feeling on the ex-pat issue is this. You chose to live and work outside the UK and I suspect will continue to do so after Brexit. Plus of course there are many ex-pats who retire to Spain or France or some other warmer climate. I don't begrudge anyone the right to do what they feel they need to in order to benefit themselves and their families. On the contrary I think it must have been a difficult decision to go to a foreign country and stay there.

But on the subject of Brexit I felt and still feel that only UK residents should have voted. Just as I was denied a vote in the Scottish referendum because I live and work in England despite having been born in Glasgow.

As to the other posters on here assuming that everyone wants a no-deal exit I would say they're so far off the mark it's laughable. I am and remain (pun intended) a committed supporter of our membership in the EU. I accept we're leaving but I'm absolutely certain it will be a disaster for this country. Those like Nat who seem to think it means we'll suddenly become some sort of superpower in our own right or that we'll somehow become 'free' are at best deluding themselves and at worst they're complete idiots.

A no-deal exit is a certainty for reasons I've already stated several times and if anyone thinks that will be good for Britain I would say you need professional help.

As previously stated by me, I lost my job in the UK. The ONLY job I could take that kept me on a similar wage at that time was in Germany. I work in a fairly specialized industry so my options were limited, especially as this all came about as a result of 9/11. I have no intention to retire in Germany. We wanted to retire in Spain, but now even that could become an issue. Don't get me wrong, I understand some people have really good reasons for wanting Brexit. Unfortunately, many many people voted in a political way because they were disgruntled with the Government rather than anything to do with Europe, and many many others voted to leave because they believed the gutter press about things like the whole of Turkey will move to England WHEN they are FOR SURE going to be allowed to join the EU, and the fact that we pay for everything in Europe (according to The Daily Mail anyway). There was an area near Cardiff that has seen more than 400 miliion Quid pumped in to it for regeneration all from the EU money. Even the local Councils said it was 10 times more than they could ever have provided, but the area still voted leave with one local being interviewed (stood in front of the multi million pound training facility paid by the EU, and by the fast dual carriageway link to the City of Cardiff paid by the EU) saying "what have they ever done for us". You can't make it up. Anyway, I won't discuss this anymore. I can understand your feelings reference Scotland aswell. Interestingly, 16-18 year olds could vote in that one, yet in the Brexit Referendum it was not permitted, despite, like I said before, it being the younger generations that will suffer the consequences of this cluster fuck.

One last thing reference who should have been allowed a vote. In total 6 million people directly affected couldn't vote. That's 3 million ex-pats and 3 million EU Citizens already working in the UK, and we/they are directly affected, unlike many millions who this will have absolutely no effect on whatsoever, who got to vote on the futures of people like me.

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