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2018 Budget

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31 Re: 2018 Budget on Tue Oct 30 2018, 17:25

Angry Dad

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
@Natasha Whittam wrote:I agree that the budget doesn't go nearly far enough but no government, Tory or Labour, will ever be brave enough to make the tough decisions that actually make things fairer.

1) Stop making the NHS "free for everyone". Make all those people having treatment for conditions they brought on themselves PAY FOR THEIR FUCKING TREATMENT. If some obese person wants a gastric band, make them pay for it. If someone smoked 80 fags a day or drank 20 pints every night, don't be wasting resources on them. If they want help, make them pay. Also, while clearly not their own fault, couples who want IVF should be paying. Not having children is not a sickness or disease. There are people with cancer not getting the drugs they need because couples are getting £5,000 per cycle for IVF.

2) Stop paying for people to have children. Stop handing out child benefit, stop handing out free nursery places. We seem to have reached a situation where people have kids and then expect the taxpayer to pay for them. If you want a kid, then fucking pay for him or her.

These two obvious changes would transform the budget for the NHS, universal credit, mental health etc. I can't imagine any decent, sane person not agreeing with me. 25 stone Janice with 4 kids from Crawley, probably not so much.
I like it.

32 Re: 2018 Budget on Tue Oct 30 2018, 18:00

karlypants

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@wanderlust wrote:
@Norpig wrote:An end to austerity, that made me laugh! Tell that to the hundreds of thousands of people struggling with Universal credit and using foodbanks.
They, along with the homeless and mental health sufferers don't exist in Toryland. The Police, Local Councils, NHS workers and Teachers are already lined up to be sacrificed next to keep their millionaire backers happy in their foreign homes.

:clap: :clap:

33 Re: 2018 Budget on Tue Oct 30 2018, 18:47

T.R.O.Y


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
@Angry Dad wrote:
@Natasha Whittam wrote:I agree that the budget doesn't go nearly far enough but no government, Tory or Labour, will ever be brave enough to make the tough decisions that actually make things fairer.

1) Stop making the NHS "free for everyone". Make all those people having treatment for conditions they brought on themselves PAY FOR THEIR FUCKING TREATMENT. If some obese person wants a gastric band, make them pay for it. If someone smoked 80 fags a day or drank 20 pints every night, don't be wasting resources on them. If they want help, make them pay. Also, while clearly not their own fault, couples who want IVF should be paying. Not having children is not a sickness or disease. There are people with cancer not getting the drugs they need because couples are getting £5,000 per cycle for IVF.

2) Stop paying for people to have children. Stop handing out child benefit, stop handing out free nursery places. We seem to have reached a situation where people have kids and then expect the taxpayer to pay for them. If you want a kid, then fucking pay for him or her.

These two obvious changes would transform the budget for the NHS, universal credit, mental health etc. I can't imagine any decent, sane person not agreeing with me. 25 stone Janice with 4 kids from Crawley, probably not so much.
I like it.

Don't disagree with some of your issues in point 1 - however I doubt making those changes would have a major impact on NHS finances.

However you're wrong on point 2 - there is a clear and negative impact in getting rid of child benefits, poverty affects education, chances of getting a job later in life and their health - all of which have a future impact on their likelihood to become a productive member of society and not be a drain on the state either through ill health or lack of productivity. You're not going to be able to limit the amount of children people have (look to China for reference).

34 Re: 2018 Budget on Tue Oct 30 2018, 19:17

xmiles

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
@T.R.O.Y wrote:
@Angry Dad wrote:
@Natasha Whittam wrote:I agree that the budget doesn't go nearly far enough but no government, Tory or Labour, will ever be brave enough to make the tough decisions that actually make things fairer.

1) Stop making the NHS "free for everyone". Make all those people having treatment for conditions they brought on themselves PAY FOR THEIR FUCKING TREATMENT. If some obese person wants a gastric band, make them pay for it. If someone smoked 80 fags a day or drank 20 pints every night, don't be wasting resources on them. If they want help, make them pay. Also, while clearly not their own fault, couples who want IVF should be paying. Not having children is not a sickness or disease. There are people with cancer not getting the drugs they need because couples are getting £5,000 per cycle for IVF.

2) Stop paying for people to have children. Stop handing out child benefit, stop handing out free nursery places. We seem to have reached a situation where people have kids and then expect the taxpayer to pay for them. If you want a kid, then fucking pay for him or her.

These two obvious changes would transform the budget for the NHS, universal credit, mental health etc. I can't imagine any decent, sane person not agreeing with me. 25 stone Janice with 4 kids from Crawley, probably not so much.
I like it.

Don't disagree with some of your issues in point 1 - however I doubt making those changes would have a major impact on NHS finances.

However you're wrong on point 2 - there is a clear and negative impact in getting rid of child benefits, poverty affects education, chances of getting a job later in life and their health - all of which have a future impact on their likelihood to become a productive member of society and not be a drain on the state either through ill health or lack of productivity. You're not going to be able to limit the amount of children people have (look to China for reference).

I have a lot of sympathy with point 1 but doubt that it would be practical to implement in full. Charging for IVF and non-medical plastic surgery might be possible but what politician would advocate it?

Far more practical would be either a revaluation of council tax bands so people in large houses paid a realistic amount or even better a mansion tax. Most rich people pay very little tax.

35 Re: 2018 Budget on Tue Oct 30 2018, 19:30

okocha

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Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
[size=17]British government debt has gone up, not down, despite the cuts, from 52.3% of GDP in 2009 to 85.6% this year.  Austerity has failed massively and this budget certainly doesn't even pretend to address the problem adequately. Police, schools and local councils have every right to be aggrieved when potholes are considered more important. 
Meanwhile we continue with HS2 and big spending on updating nuclear weapons. Notice....not a word on climate change issues. The Nasty Party ploughs on with making the wealthy richer whereas the poor are given paltry tax cuts. The bedroom tax was kinder than Universal Credit![/size]

36 Re: 2018 Budget on Tue Oct 30 2018, 19:50

Natasha Whittam

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@T.R.O.Y wrote:Don't disagree with some of your issues in point 1 - however I doubt making those changes would have a major impact on NHS finances.

Obesity costs the NHS at least 6 billion quid a year. Smoking related illnesses cost the NHS 2.7 billion quid a year. Even IVF costs the NHS £400m per year. Those are massive figures....imagine an NHS with an extra 9 billion quid a year. Tell me that wouldn't make a huge difference to cancer patients and people with other serious illnesses.

@T.R.O.Y wrote:However you're wrong on point 2 - there is a clear and negative impact in getting rid of child benefits, poverty affects education, chances of getting a job later in life and their health - all of which have a future impact on their likelihood to become a productive member of society and not be a drain on the state either through ill health or lack of productivity. You're not going to be able to limit the amount of children people have (look to China for reference).

Of course there are problems associated with such a radical plan. But if there was no state help for people who have kids it would certainly put some people off. We need to move away from a culture of hand outs. Help should be there for people who fall on hard times, not to help bring even more lives into an over populated world.

37 Re: 2018 Budget on Tue Oct 30 2018, 20:03

T.R.O.Y


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
Fair enough but if those numbers are accurate it’s still less than 10% of the annual budget - but I take your point it would make a big difference.

You’ve missed my second point though, there’s a long term economic benefit of having a more equal society and supporting those in need, you shouldn’t consider it a drain.

38 Re: 2018 Budget on Tue Oct 30 2018, 20:12

Natasha Whittam

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@T.R.O.Y wrote:You’ve missed my second point though, there’s a long term economic benefit of having a more equal society and supporting those in need, you shouldn’t consider it a drain.

I don't think it's a drain if people are genuinely deserving of help. But having a kid shouldn't automatically give you access to a range of benefits.

So Mary is 18, left home, nowhere to live so gets herself pregnant in order to get a flat and access to benefits. However, if there were no homes/benefits available to people who have a kid don't you think Mary would think twice before having a child?

39 Re: 2018 Budget on Tue Oct 30 2018, 20:36

T.R.O.Y


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
No I think people are fucking idiots. But punishing their children is immoral and increases the likelihood of that child becoming a drain on the economy in future.

40 Re: 2018 Budget on Wed Oct 31 2018, 08:42

Norpig

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Once you start charging for services on the NHS it will start a slide to full blown privatisation which cannot be allowed to happen. In some areas IVF isn't allowed on the NHS already which is worse i think as penalises couples who live in the "wrong" areas.

41 Re: 2018 Budget on Wed Oct 31 2018, 09:03

xmiles

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
Totally opposed to any more privatisation of the NHS but there are some procedures like IVF which are not medically required, they are matters of choice. In addition there are time wasters who call 999 or go to A&E or GPs when they don't need to.

However the fundamental problem remains this government's criminal underfunding of the NHS over the past 8 years. We have one of the lowest levels of doctors, nurses and hospital beds per head of population in the western world and sadly too few people realise this.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwi3r_rdqLDeAhVlDsAKHZgOCJ8QFjAAegQIBxAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nationalhealthexecutive.com%2FHealth-Care-News%2Fnhs-has-one-of-lowest-levels-of-doctors-and-nurses-in-western-world&usg=AOvVaw0eapqr6Q5qaoY7GZFgigiM

42 Re: 2018 Budget on Wed Oct 31 2018, 09:26

Natasha Whittam

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Norpig wrote:Once you start charging for services on the NHS it will start a slide to full blown privatisation which cannot be allowed to happen.

It doesn't have to be. It's quite clear what diseases are self-inflicted. Don't you think it's wrong that some cancer patients are being denied expensive drugs in one room, and down the hall someone is having £10k or £15k spent on their IVF treatment.

There shouldn't be a postcode lottery, it should simply be "we pay for this" and "we don't pay for that", same all over the UK.

It baffles me that anyone would think this isn't a fair way of helping the NHS.

43 Re: 2018 Budget on Wed Oct 31 2018, 09:28

Natasha Whittam

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@xmiles wrote:However the fundamental problem remains this government's criminal underfunding of the NHS over the past 8 years.

Oh get a grip, the NHS has been underfunded for decades. Don't make out this is simply a Tory issue.

44 Re: 2018 Budget on Wed Oct 31 2018, 09:33

Norpig

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
But what happens when the patients with self inflicted illnesses refuse to pay for treatment and then become seriously ill? Do you turn round and say no we can't treat you? They will still end up being seen by the NHS one way or another.

I do agree about cancer treatments but generally drugs are only refused funding because they are hideously expensive and may only prolong life by a matter of months.

As for IVF, its a very emotive issue. Do we really want to say to people desperate to have children that sorry you're going to have to pay?  I think the NHS pay for 3 cycles then after that you have to fund yourself.

45 Re: 2018 Budget on Wed Oct 31 2018, 09:36

xmiles

avatar
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
@Natasha Whittam wrote:
@xmiles wrote:However the fundamental problem remains this government's criminal underfunding of the NHS over the past 8 years.

Oh get a grip, the NHS has been underfunded for decades. Don't make out this is simply a Tory issue.


You are completely wrong. Under Labour funding increased but since 2010 it has declined in real terms. Just look at the FACTS for once. Here for example:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwj1kZ_vr7DeAhWBJMAKHc2NBhEQFjAAegQICBAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nuffieldtrust.org.uk%2Fnews-item%2F70-years-of-nhs-spending&usg=AOvVaw1UZlXx-A2WlJIYtckwZAwy

46 Re: 2018 Budget on Wed Oct 31 2018, 09:41

Natasha Whittam

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
I am completely right, this has been an issue my whole lifetime.

47 Re: 2018 Budget on Wed Oct 31 2018, 09:45

Natasha Whittam

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Norpig wrote:But what happens when the patients with self inflicted illnesses refuse to pay for treatment and then become seriously ill? Do you turn round and say no we can't treat you?

That's exactly what I would do. Yes, it would be tough but eventually people might get the message that the NHS isn't going to bail you out if you continue to abuse your body.

@Norpig wrote:As for IVF, its a very emotive issue. Do we really want to say to people desperate to have children that sorry you're going to have to pay?  I think the NHS pay for 3 cycles then after that you have to fund yourself.  

Yes it's a sensitive issue, and I feel for those people, but the NHS is in crisis and some tough decisions need to be made. We can't keep going through life being scared to make tough decisions that might upset a small group of people.

48 Re: 2018 Budget on Wed Oct 31 2018, 09:52

xmiles

avatar
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
@Natasha Whittam wrote:I am completely right, this has been an issue my whole lifetime.

No you are completely wrong. You obviously haven't even looked at any factual evidence. Just for once in your life look at some FACTS.

49 Re: 2018 Budget on Wed Oct 31 2018, 09:58

Natasha Whittam

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@xmiles wrote:No you are completely wrong. You obviously haven't even looked at any factual evidence. Just for once in your life look at some FACTS.

Just because you post a link doesn't make it a fact.

You're blinkered in virtually everything you do by Tory hatred.

50 Re: 2018 Budget on Wed Oct 31 2018, 10:03

Natasha Whittam

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

51 Re: 2018 Budget on Wed Oct 31 2018, 10:35

xmiles

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
@Natasha Whittam wrote:
@xmiles wrote:No you are completely wrong. You obviously haven't even looked at any factual evidence. Just for once in your life look at some FACTS.

Just because you post a link doesn't make it a fact.

You're blinkered in virtually everything you do by Tory hatred.

Have you even read it? It is a report from the Nuffield Trust, an independent health think tank. It demonstrates quite clearly that the Tories have seriously underfunded the NHS since 2010 compared to the much higher levels of funding provided by Labour.

You are so obsessed by point scoring that you won't even bother to look at factual evidence which undermines your whole argument.

52 Re: 2018 Budget on Wed Oct 31 2018, 10:41

xmiles

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo

Neither party has provided sufficient detail about how they would fund this money.

This doesn't in any way remove the fact that that the Tories have underfunded the NHS since 2010 in contrast to the higher levels of funding previously provided by Labour.

53 Re: 2018 Budget on Wed Oct 31 2018, 14:33

observer


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
@wanderlust wrote:
@Norpig wrote:An end to austerity, that made me laugh! Tell that to the hundreds of thousands of people struggling with Universal credit and using foodbanks.
They, along with the homeless and mental health sufferers don't exist in Toryland. The Police, Local Councils, NHS workers and Teachers are already lined up to be sacrificed next to keep their millionaire backers happy in their foreign homes.
Sounds like Trump Village... tax breaks for the uber wealthy and cuts to Medicaid, Medicare and Social Security.

54 Re: 2018 Budget on Thu Nov 01 2018, 15:30

gloswhite

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Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha
It doesn't matter. According to some, were going to end up a Third World country after Brexit, and nobody will have anything.

55 Re: 2018 Budget on Fri Nov 02 2018, 02:34

wanderlust

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@gloswhite wrote:It doesn't matter. According to some, were going to end up a Third World country after Brexit, and nobody will have anything.
Not sure who you are quoting there Glos - source? As far as I can tell most Brexit critics have simply said we will be a poorer country in terms of the big economies and that the country will move towards having a low wage/high employment economy with a bigger gap between the rich and the poor and reduced public services which Government stats show is happening already. 
Whether that leads to public unrest and further economic decline in a few years time remains to be seen, but I haven't heard anyone taking the longer term view yet. Who is it?

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