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Club debt rises to £163.8 million!!!

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wanderlust
xmiles
Banks of the Croal
scottjames30
rammywhite
observer
Soul Kitchen
Hipster_Nebula
terenceanne
NickFazer
karlypants
bwfc71
Natasha Whittam
BoltonTillIDie
aaron_bwfc
Copper Dragon
doffcocker
Jack Russell
Culcheth_White
Reebok Trotter
Norpig
Sluffy
Triumph
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Copper Dragon

Copper Dragon
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo

Parachute payments last for four years after relegation, or they did do.

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Copper Dragon wrote:Parachute payments last for four years after relegation, or they did do.

On a reducing basis though.

Did you see how much of the expenditure was spent on asset acquisition? That's a P & L hit but in reality it's swapping cash for assets so not really a loss on the Balance Sheet unless they devalue overnight.

Anyone notice what the business is actually worth? That might give some realistic perspective on the relative importance of parachute payments etc - which I suspect are not that important in the scheme of things.

Looking at the P & L in isolation is usually meaningless so if anyone can tell me what the business is valued at I'd be grateful.

We could for example spend £ gazillions acquiring Google which would show up on the P & L accounts as a loss of £ gazillions - but we'd own Google! (which would turn us a profit and have a rising resale value and the business would still be worth £ gazillions only represented as assets rather than cash)

Copper Dragon

Copper Dragon
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo

wanderlust wrote:
Copper Dragon wrote:Parachute payments last for four years after relegation, or they did do.

On a reducing basis though.


I know.

We received two payments at £16 million and two payments at £8 million.

Reebok Trotter

Reebok Trotter
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

We have still got a parachute payment to come for next season.

Guest


Guest

Just heard on Five Live that last season Utd got £60m for winning the Prem.

This season, under the new TV deal, the team that finishes 20th will get more than that.

Fucking ridiculous.

Norpig

Norpig
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Thanks Rammy and BWFC71, even a financial fuckwit like me could understand (most of) that!

BoltonTillIDie

BoltonTillIDie
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Came across this on t'internet - thought it summed up our wastefulness very well


By now, fans of Bolton Wanderers will have had the entirely sobering experience of reading about the club’s annual financial statement. “How did we rack up such a massive debt” is the question usually asked, although it might be slightly longer due to a couple of swear words in there.
The latest yearly deficit is a staggering £50.7 million. Sadly, it isn’t a one off. Figures since 2007, when the loss making sequence began are listed below.
(£ million)
YearLossDebt
201350.7163.8
201222.1136.5
201126.1110.6
201035.493.1
200913.264.0
20088.153.5
20072.143.0
A satisfactory explanation as to why such losses have been incurred has never been forthcoming from the Reebok, although a look over the accounts from the past few years does yield interesting information. One obvious factor is wages.
Between 2009 and 2010 there was a whopping £14 million increase and one of nearly £9 million between 2007 and 2008. At the time Gary Megson was being credited (mainly by Gary Megson) with reducing expenditure in that respect.
The claim that these sums were justified by the increase in TV revenue doesn’t wash either. By 2010 wage payments were outstripping Sky’s contribution by £16.5 million.
Another factor is player movements. Bolton may be a trading club, but they’re a bit rubbish at it.
Granted, profits have been made on some sales. Kevin Nolan £4 million; Ali Al Habsi £4 million; Danny Ward £1 million (including add ons); Chris Basham £500,000; Gary Cahill £2 million, but given his status and transfer inflation during during a four year stint at the Reebok, that represents a significant failure. He was though, the only player signed by Megson to be sold for a surplus.
The most successful sell-on was Nicolas Anelka, who was acquired for £8 million and left for £15 million, with £2.6 million of that returned to club owner Eddie Davies as a ‘player success fee.’
The list of players on who losses were or will be made is longer. Some of the individuals below are still at the club. In that case, a projected leaving value of zero has been assumed. Some might see that as overly pessimistic, but do you think that Chris Eagles or Zat Knight will attract transfer fees when they can be had for free at the end of the season? That’ll be a no, then.
£million
PlayerSigned byCostSold ForLoss
Johann ElmanderGary Megson8.208.2
Gretar SteinssonGary Megson3.503.5
Danny ShittuGary Megson2.202.2
Matt TaylorGary Megson3.52.11.4
Zat KnightGary Megson4.504.5
Mark ConnollyGary Megson101
Sam RickettsGary Megson2.202.2
Chris Eagles and Tyrone MearsOwen Coyle303
Marvin SordellOwen Coyle3.503.5
David N’GogOwen Coyle404
Marcos AlonsoOwen Coyle2.302.3
El Hadji DioufSam Allardyce4.52.22.3
Heidar Helguson (£2.2 million with add ins)Sammy Lee101
Total Loss39.1
Then there are the signings (mainly loans) that didn’t incur a transfer fee, but commanded big wages. Jack Wilshere and Daniel Sturridge have been judged as successful. Others can’t be, such as Sébastien Puygrenier, Ebi Smolarek, Ariza Makukula. Vladimír Weiss, Dedryck Boyata, Gaël Kakuta, Christian Wilhelmsson, Ryo Miyaichi, Tuncay Sanli, Benik Afobe and Riga Mustapha.
Wilhelmsson was paid £1.75 million for a season in which he barely set foot on the pitch whilst Riga reportedly pocketed £20,000 a week for over a season.
It is perhaps the signing of Danny Shittu that best sums up the cack handed, amateur, incompetent way that Bolton Wanderers has been run over the past half dozen years. Scout Les Padfield, worked for Gary Megson when he was manager at West Brom, then in the second tier of English football. Padfield recommended Shittu to the club after seeing him play for Charlton reserves, reasoning that he would be useful at that level. Megson didn’t agree.
“I went to see your lad Shittu, last night,” said the Ginger One.
“And?”
“You must be having a laugh. He had a mare. Looks like a real liability.”*
A few years later, Megson signed Shittu – for Premier League Bolton. His first judgement was correct. The big Nigerian played in ten league games before being released from his contract two years later.

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Guest


Guest

Breadman wrote:Just heard on Five Live that last season Utd got £60m for winning the Prem.

This season, under the new TV deal, the team that finishes 20th will get more than that.

Fucking ridiculous.

Ye just heard the same thing, absolute madness and goes to show what's at stake, as Paul Lambert was saying it's all about survival for most teams these days.

After a few years the clubs in the premier league will be so far ahead financially it's difficult to imagine a championship team getting up and staying up.

scottjames30

scottjames30
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

BoltonTillIDie wrote:Came across this on t'internet - thought it summed up our wastefulness very well


By now, fans of Bolton Wanderers will have had the entirely sobering experience of reading about the club’s annual financial statement. “How did we rack up such a massive debt” is the question usually asked, although it might be slightly longer due to a couple of swear words in there.
The latest yearly deficit is a staggering £50.7 million. Sadly, it isn’t a one off. Figures since 2007, when the loss making sequence began are listed below.
(£ million)
YearLossDebt
201350.7163.8
201222.1136.5
201126.1110.6
201035.493.1
200913.264.0
20088.153.5
20072.143.0
A satisfactory explanation as to why such losses have been incurred has never been forthcoming from the Reebok, although a look over the accounts from the past few years does yield interesting information. One obvious factor is wages.
Between 2009 and 2010 there was a whopping £14 million increase and one of nearly £9 million between 2007 and 2008. At the time Gary Megson was being credited (mainly by Gary Megson) with reducing expenditure in that respect.
The claim that these sums were justified by the increase in TV revenue doesn’t wash either. By 2010 wage payments were outstripping Sky’s contribution by £16.5 million.
Another factor is player movements. Bolton may be a trading club, but they’re a bit rubbish at it.
Granted, profits have been made on some sales. Kevin Nolan £4 million; Ali Al Habsi £4 million; Danny Ward £1 million (including add ons); Chris Basham £500,000; Gary Cahill £2 million, but given his status and transfer inflation during during a four year stint at the Reebok, that represents a significant failure. He was though, the only player signed by Megson to be sold for a surplus.
The most successful sell-on was Nicolas Anelka, who was acquired for £8 million and left for £15 million, with £2.6 million of that returned to club owner Eddie Davies as a ‘player success fee.’
The list of players on who losses were or will be made is longer. Some of the individuals below are still at the club. In that case, a projected leaving value of zero has been assumed. Some might see that as overly pessimistic, but do you think that Chris Eagles or Zat Knight will attract transfer fees when they can be had for free at the end of the season? That’ll be a no, then.
£million
PlayerSigned byCostSold ForLoss
Johann ElmanderGary Megson8.208.2
Gretar SteinssonGary Megson3.503.5
Danny ShittuGary Megson2.202.2
Matt TaylorGary Megson3.52.11.4
Zat KnightGary Megson4.504.5
Mark ConnollyGary Megson101
Sam RickettsGary Megson2.202.2
Chris Eagles and Tyrone MearsOwen Coyle303
Marvin SordellOwen Coyle3.503.5
David N’GogOwen Coyle404
Marcos AlonsoOwen Coyle2.302.3
El Hadji DioufSam Allardyce4.52.22.3
Heidar Helguson (£2.2 million with add ins)Sammy Lee101
Total Loss39.1
Then there are the signings (mainly loans) that didn’t incur a transfer fee, but commanded big wages. Jack Wilshere and Daniel Sturridge have been judged as successful. Others can’t be, such as Sébastien Puygrenier, Ebi Smolarek, Ariza Makukula. Vladimír Weiss, Dedryck Boyata, Gaël Kakuta, Christian Wilhelmsson, Ryo Miyaichi, Tuncay Sanli, Benik Afobe and Riga Mustapha.
Wilhelmsson was paid £1.75 million for a season in which he barely set foot on the pitch whilst Riga reportedly pocketed £20,000 a week for over a season.
It is perhaps the signing of Danny Shittu that best sums up the cack handed, amateur, incompetent way that Bolton Wanderers has been run over the past half dozen years. Scout Les Padfield, worked for Gary Megson when he was manager at West Brom, then in the second tier of English football. Padfield recommended Shittu to the club after seeing him play for Charlton reserves, reasoning that he would be useful at that level. Megson didn’t agree.
“I went to see your lad Shittu, last night,” said the Ginger One.
“And?”
“You must be having a laugh. He had a mare. Looks like a real liability.”*
A few years later, Megson signed Shittu – for Premier League Bolton. His first judgement was correct. The big Nigerian played in ten league games before being released from his contract two years later.

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O dear Gartside.

Norpig

Norpig
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

The Wilhemsson and Riga figures made me very angry, what a waste of money they both were, no wonder we are in the shit

Guest


Guest

Wow.....that makes for some truly depressing reading.

And confirms what a complete fucking idiot Gartside is.

That's almost criminal negligence on his part and he should be removed immediately.

scottjames30

scottjames30
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

What has Gartside been doing for the last few years?

Copper Dragon

Copper Dragon
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo

scottjames30 wrote:What has Gartside been doing for the last few years?



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scottjames30

scottjames30
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Are we the most debt ridden club in the Championship?

135Club debt rises to £163.8 million!!! - Page 7 Empty Manny Road's take on club losses Thu Jan 02 2014, 21:05

doffcocker

doffcocker
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo

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karlypants

karlypants
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

scottjames30 wrote:Are we the most debt ridden club in the Championship?
We must be!

Keegan

Keegan
Admin

Only five clubs have suffered losses over a year like we have! In, like, ever!

https://forum.boltonnuts.co.uk

rammywhite

rammywhite
Frank Worthington
Frank Worthington

observer wrote:
rammywhite wrote:This is going to be long and boring to some- but its about the clubs latest Accounts. I've been through them this morning with a fine tooth comb - and there are a lot of interesting things in there. Forgive me if this is a bit technical- but I'll make it as easy as I can.
 I'll give you just a few:

1) It cost us £2.3 m to get rid of Coyle and his mates

2) It has cost us £2.7 m in wages to loan some of our players out 

3 As regards whether we'll continue- the best evidence for me is that the auditor (Deloitte) makes no reference to any going concern issues at all in their auditors Report. They gave a clean report. Deloitte are no mugs (I worked for one of their competitors KPMG for years) - and they will have looked at this very carefully as its so easy to get sued if they get it wrong.

4) However the Directors go on at great length about the business as a 'going concern' in three places in the Accounts. They are clearly concerned and have drawn up serious looking contingency plans if we hit the cash flow skids

5)Gartside has seen his remuneration fall from over £800k to just over £400k. He's sharing our pain!!

6)There has to be a real issue about the FFP rules. A few years ago Portsmouth tried it on by separating loans between the football club and their holding company and the FA would have none of it. Look where they are now. Gartsides main tactic would be securitisation of season ticket sales- selling future receipts that we pay (probably for the next 5 years) to a finance company- and recognising much of the income now. Highly suspicious- Glasgow Rangers tried it- and look how much good it did them

7) Ownership of the club is really murky ( as BWFC71 correctly points out). Note 33 says its 95% owned by Fildraw- a Bermudan company. I've tried this morning to get data on them and failed- but I'll keep on trying.
However the loans are made by Moonshift which Eddy clearly owns ( with a beneficial interest- so there's something murky there). But Gartside says in the Directors Report that Eddy is the 'principal' shareholder in Burnden Leisure!!
I smell a rat here and I think we might still be in trouble. The accounts state that all plans are based on promotion in 13/14- so this season has already been written off  by the Board.

I could go on with about 20 more significant points from the accounts but I suspect you're bored already.

But, talking professionally, there are a lot of things in the Accounts which are hair raising.
Unlike what happens on the pitch.
Lecture over- but I for one have concerns about the future
So Rammy... what is the bottom line?  If you were trying to shelter monies and run a football club, what is most advantageous?  Where would you show the greatest loss for tax purposes?  What is the real bottom line for the football club taking out the one time costs of the buy-outs?  Do you think from these numbers that there is a chance that the club can break even when the last of the Coyle contracts (Knightmare, N'gog, etc) are off the books?  Hence, can the club break even, staying in the championship, for 2013-14?

I understand this may be difficult with the wheeling and dealing in the island country laden corporate world, but taking out the land holdings, the large contracts, etc, can this club break even next season when the parachute payments are gone?

What's going to happen? I think you'd need a crystal ball as there is so much financial information that isn't stated in the Accounts as it isn't part of the minimum disclosure requirements. Businesses tell us what the law demands and no more.
Just think that the interest on the outstanding debt was about twice the gate receipts! That speaks volumes.
As for the future , on the good side Deloitte saw no reason to qualify their 'true and fair' view with any issues about the business being a going concern. And Barclays have agreed an on going borrowing facility to support the club in the short term. That loan of course will be interest bearing.
Eddy's agreement to restructure his massive loan will also help in the short term ,but in the longer term there are no guarantees- and these loans will need to be repaid at some stage- unless he writes them off. I can't see that happening.
In the short term the real concern is the ongoing losses that are incurred every season. There is no cash in the club and so any prospects of expensive player acquisitions are futile. We have few players who could command a substantial transfer fee- so in terms of the playing squad I think the cupboard is bare.
The Boards strategy must be to attempt promotion next season (this season has already been written off) and get the substantial Premiership payments for perhaps a year or two to pay off the debt.
In my vue any attempt to stay up would be a disaster as it costs a fortune to be there. Look at the amounts being bandied about at the minute for mediocre European players. Tan gave Mackay £35m to spend- what do you get for that nowadays- next to nothing.
So promotion would be at best temporary to get the dosh and then get relegated again with a substantial set of cash balances. to allow the club some medium term stability.
All this stuff about hotels is hot air. Its a single out of town retail hotel which will make a small contribution to overall financial surpluses. The grandiose plans for a huge retail development( currently held up by Council objections) will take years to build before they generate revenue- and will need huge borrowings to complete. If it happens then BWFC will be a minor part of an asset management company called Burnden Leisure.
So- in the short term (perhaps a couple of seasons) we'll struggle through probably with the current mediocrity that we see on the pitch. In reality don't expect any game changing additions. If they do get promoted it means a few more years of success. Personally I can't see them getting anywhere near promotion, and if they don't ,then expect a general spiral downwards to acceptance of what we are now- a rather poor championship side.
We burnt our boats under Megson and Coyle- it didn't work and we now have to accept a dose of realism. Unless Freedman can unearth half a dozen whizz kids from places that no other managers know about and can build a new team that can perform successfully think from a financial perspective  we're where we belong to be.
I have suspicions that we are here for the long haul, but with substantial financial problems on the horizon.

I genuinely hope that I'm wrong.

Norpig

Norpig
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

i feel thouroughly depressed after reading that Rammy! Again all well explained and in language a financial retard like myself can follow!

White84


Andy Walker
Andy Walker

A lot of the ginger twats signings Shittu £2.2 million played 10 games before being released years later.Anyway read on.Looks like Danns is gonna sign.

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