Brexit negotiations

Dunkels King wrote:Completely false statement Nat. More than a million BRITISH ex-pats couldn’t vote, and many others who could vote could not get their voting in in time due to other problems with voting from overseas like having been de registered from the UK system. Not only that , what about the sixteen to eighteen year olds. Old enough to work, pay taxes etc but not considered to be old enough to vote in a referendum, which, as pointed out is not a legally binding vote on anything, only an opinion poll, yet they could vote in the Scottish independence referendum. The other point is that if this had been a national election then a 52/48 split would not be accepted as a majority. I am sick of Brexiteers just slagging off Remoaners because “we won in a democratic vote”. It was nothing of the sort. It was a biased campaign turning normal people in to xenophobes overnight, and illegally at that according to the team that investigated the finances of the leave campaign.

DK, why should people who have chosen to leave the UK get a say on its future? When you sell your house you don't get to choose the décor when the new owners move in.

While I agree a 52/48 split wouldn't win an election, the rules were there for all to see before the voting took place. I didn't see anyone moaning about that before the result was in.

Just to be pedantic general elections are determined on the number of 'seats' won and not the percentage of people voting for a particular party.

In the 1951 general election, Winston Churchill's Conservatives won 26 more seats than Clement Attlee's Labour Party despite having received about 250,000 fewer votes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_general_election,_1951

Natasha Whittam wrote:

Dunkels King wrote:Completely false statement Nat. More than a million BRITISH ex-pats couldn’t vote, and many others who could vote could not get their voting in in time due to other problems with voting from overseas like having been de registered from the UK system. Not only that , what about the sixteen to eighteen year olds. Old enough to work, pay taxes etc but not considered to be old enough to vote in a referendum, which, as pointed out is not a legally binding vote on anything, only an opinion poll, yet they could vote in the Scottish independence referendum. The other point is that if this had been a national election then a 52/48 split would not be accepted as a majority. I am sick of Brexiteers just slagging off Remoaners because “we won in a democratic vote”. It was nothing of the sort. It was a biased campaign turning normal people in to xenophobes overnight, and illegally at that according to the team that investigated the finances of the leave campaign.

DK, why should people who have chosen to leave the UK get a say on its future? When you sell your house you don't get to choose the décor when the new owners move in.

While I agree a 52/48 split wouldn't win an election, the rules were there for all to see before the voting took place. I didn't see anyone moaning about that before the result was in.

Because we are still British Citizens and can return at anytime. Some people have moved overseas simply to work, not forever. Next, I live in Germany, but I am not permitted to vote in their Elections because I am not a German citizen. If I was a German Citizen, I could understand your argument, but I am British, and I moved to Germany based on rules that were in place when I moved, and as Brexit affects the people who live in other Countries more than anyone with their feet firmly planted in the UK, we should have been allowed a vote. Actually, Farage was moaning. He said if it was less than a 60/40 split in favour of remain, he would demand another referendum, so once again you are wrong. The reference to selling a house I should pathetic. We are talking here about the futures of millions of British people, who have basically been abandoned so far, having no clue what is going to happen. Meanwhile in the rosy world that is the UK, all you ever see in comments sections of news reports is “we should just leave now”. This from people who clearly either have limited or no knowledge of the fact you can’t do that, and have even less of an idea about what it wil do to the UK.

Sluffy wrote:Just to be pedantic general elections are determined on the number of 'seats' won and not the percentage of people voting for a particular party.

In the 1951 general election, Winston Churchill's Conservatives won 26 more seats than Clement Attlee's Labour Party despite having received about 250,000 fewer votes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_general_election,_1951

No problem. I got that wrong, but you still need a majority of seats then, and 52/48 is not a majority. A lot of people have been conned by Farage and Johnson. I don’t care what is said, they played a Nationalism card. It’s disgraceful the way some people reacted after the result. Telling their neighbors to fuck off back to Poland and such like. That is what this referendum was about for a lot of the people, foreigners taking “their jobs”. I have never heard so much bullshit. Nothing sinks in to some people. The belief that all of a sudden if you get rid of all those “stinking Eastern Europeans” you will be able to get paid 20 quid an hour for working in McDonalds is beyond a joke. Every other comment I read on news comments blames this on Europe. Actually the UK already has one of the highest minimum wages in Europe. Already higher than Germany as an example. If you opt out of EU regulations, expect to get zero hour contracts and an even lower minimum wage.

You should comment more often Dunkels, you talk a lot of sense 

Nat, this is for you: Imagine that someone who was not even an MP banded about the idea that all UK Businesses should donate every single penny of profit to the Government in order to fund the Benefits system. You, as a high powered business woman are not permitted a vote due to an obvious conflict of interests. Then this (non binding) referendum pops up a shock 52/48 result in favor of accepting this ridiculous idea. Are you going to just accept it ? Are you going to complain that it was not fair that you couldn’t have a vote ? Luckily for you, it was only a referendum which is like an opinion poll, so you will probably be relieved that it isn’t pushed through. Yet Brexit is being pushed through, by a Remainer of a all people, without one shit being given about the actual people it will affect most - the ones who didn’t get a chance to vote. By the way, I might live in Germany, but I still pay my NI contributions additionally in the UK and work for a British Company so I “should” have had just as much right to vote as you, as I am just as British as you. Where I live in the EU should have nothing to do with it. The EU regulations state that EU Citizens can live and work where they want in the EU without prejudice. Ironic that Britain prejudiced its own Overseas Citizens on the one thing that affected them more than anyone else.

Norpig wrote:You should comment more often Dunkels, you talk a lot of sense 

Thanks Norpig. Honestly, I think a lot of people who now realize it was a mistake are just saying Brexit means Brexit because they have no idea what Brexit means and think it’s too late now anyway. It is too late, but it’s not too late to protect the rights of us ex-pats who at this time honestly have no idea what we will or will not be able to do in the future. We moved to Germany for a better working life with no intention to stay here forever. My parents who both passed away in the last couple of years had moved to Spain and lived happily there for more than ten years. We also thought about doing that. Probably won’t be possible now. The only thing certain is we won’t be coming back to the UK. It’s been poisoned. When I was first in Germany in the 1980s the Brits were known as the Insel Affes (not sure if it’s spelt right) which means Island Monkeys. Nowadays I know nobody here that would even consider saying that, not even as a joke. The sad thing is, in the UK there are indeed a lot of people with that Island Monkey mentality at the moment.

Natasha Whittam wrote:

Dunkels King wrote:Completely false statement Nat. More than a million BRITISH ex-pats couldn’t vote, and many others who could vote could not get their voting in in time due to other problems with voting from overseas like having been de registered from the UK system. Not only that , what about the sixteen to eighteen year olds. Old enough to work, pay taxes etc but not considered to be old enough to vote in a referendum, which, as pointed out is not a legally binding vote on anything, only an opinion poll, yet they could vote in the Scottish independence referendum. The other point is that if this had been a national election then a 52/48 split would not be accepted as a majority. I am sick of Brexiteers just slagging off Remoaners because “we won in a democratic vote”. It was nothing of the sort. It was a biased campaign turning normal people in to xenophobes overnight, and illegally at that according to the team that investigated the finances of the leave campaign.

DK, why should people who have chosen to leave the UK get a say on its future? When you sell your house you don't get to choose the décor when the new owners move in.

While I agree a 52/48 split wouldn't win an election, the rules were there for all to see before the voting took place. I didn't see anyone moaning about that before the result was in.

......and I know you thrive on being a WUM, but you live in Preston, so why should you be allowed to comment on a Bolton forum ? Oh, because you come from Bolton and support Bolton that’s why. Same principle really.

Whilst I agree with everything else you write DK 52 to 48 is a majority which would require a 2% swing to change it. Taxpaying British citizens working abroad would have swung it if they'd all voted to remain and I have yet to meet one who wouldn't, possibly because they have first hand experience of the importance of global relations. Taxpaying 16 to 18 year olds are also predominantly pro-Remain according to polls but of course that isn't proof. 
No point in arguing about the vote count itself but there is plenty of room to debate:
1. Should the illegality of the Leave campaign negate the referendum?
2. Should the denial of voting rights to sections of the tax paying public negate the referendum?
3. Should the U turns on promises made negate the referendum?
4. Should the wildly varying interpretations of what people actually voted for negate the referendum?
5. Should the fact that it was a referendum and not a vote negate the Government's right to call it a mandate?
6. Should the referendum of 2 years ago continue to be valid in the light of the Government's failure to secure any of the concessions they claimed they could achieve?
7. Should the fact that the Government have changed their interpretation of "what Brexit means" (3 times!) negate the referendum?
8. Now that it is widely known that the EU will not accept the key points on which the Leave campaign fought their corner along with the substantial loss of confidence in both the Government and the process, should the British public - and by that I mean all the British public - have the right to a proper vote?
9. Should the Leave campaigners who misled the British public be investigated and potentially face prosecution?

DK, while I accept a lot of what you say is true, I don't think it's fair that people who have left the UK should be given a vote on what happens to the future of the UK. If you resigned from your job to move to another company, you wouldn't expect to have rights within your old company, even if one day you intended to work for them again.

Dunkels King wrote:I think a lot of people who now realize it was a mistake are just saying Brexit means Brexit

Where are you getting that info from? Because the people I know that voted to leave aren't changing their minds, they're getting pissed off with how the government is handling it granted, but no one is changing their mind.

...and now Boris Johnson has resigned!

Bye bye wanker!

Toerag leadership challenge on the horizon?

Natasha Whittam wrote:DK, while I accept a lot of what you say is true, I don't think it's fair that people who have left the UK should be given a vote on what happens to the future of the UK. 

But they haven't left the UK - they are working abroad to bring foreign money back into the UK coffers.
If they pay UK taxes they should have a say.
Which raises the question as to whether or not the unemployed should have been given a vote.

wanderlust wrote:...and now Boris Johnson has resigned!

Bye bye wanker!

He has his eyes on the top job no doubt. I don't know what is worse, bumbling Boris or that Victorian knobhead Rees-Mogg.

Natasha Whittam wrote:DK, while I accept a lot of what you say is true, I don't think it's fair that people who have left the UK should be given a vote on what happens to the future of the UK. If you resigned from your job to move to another company, you wouldn't expect to have rights within your old company, even if one day you intended to work for them again.

Yeh. I didn’t resign, I was made redundant, and to maintain the standard of living I had no option but to move abroad. I therefore don’t think it’s fair that people on Benefits got a vote, because they are contributing less to the coffers than I am. 

That’s a joke by the way. It doesn’t matter what you think is fair. What matters it what the law says, and the law still entitles me to vote in the UK, except in this instance it was not allowed, so the Government for whatever reason actually denied people their right. Can you be honest for one minute ? What exact difference to you will being in or out of Europe mean ? Will you be better off ? Will you be able to expand your Company easier ? What exactly ? All I know is that More than a Million people who will 100% be affected couldn’t have a say. I don’t care what you think because you just seem hellbent on disagreeing with everyone else’s point of view anyway. I have yet to see or hear anything from anyone that will have a positive affect to the UK by implementing Brexit. Even that arsehole Farage is now saying we should stay in the Common Market etc. The leave campaign was basically a big ego trip for Farage and Johnson. Farage is just one step away from being simply a xenophobic idiot (married to a German and therefore entitled through marriage to live where he wants in Europe) who likes to prod the wasp nest, and Johnson was only in it because he thought he could oust Cameron after the referendum. It’s backfired spectacularly. All this time has passed and still no one has a clue what it really means, and what will happen to those working in other countries. Still, as long as you can get rid of your Polish neighbors who cares if you end up back in the stone ages selling your wonderful goods to the Empire. Airbus and all those other companies, Car manufacturers etc, who directly and indirectly employ more than a million people will be off like a shot. Many other high profile businesses (not yours Nat) that support Brexit do so because their company already produces their products outside the EU (ie China, India, Mexico) so it doesn’t matter to them.

Norpig wrote:

wanderlust wrote:...and now Boris Johnson has resigned!

Bye bye wanker!

He has his eyes on the top job no doubt. I don't know what is worse, bumbling Boris or that Victorian knobhead Rees-Mogg.

Best news I have heard for ages. The Government is in meltdown now. If we thought Bolton Wanderers were having problems at the moment, it’s nothing compared to what’s going on in Westminster. I fully expect Brexit to be delivered now. I imagine it will be something along the lines of the UK leaves the EU but maintains all the same trading contracts by signing up to a deal that costs twice as much as it does at the moment and allows free movement of people from the EU27 to live and work in the UK. UK Citizens will have to pay 20 Euro for a Visa on entry to the EU Countries. The Visa will be valid for one visit only and valid for one Country only. So your EU sponsored “free” interrail ticket will now cost say 200 Euro in Visa costs 

Natasha Whittam wrote:DK, while I accept a lot of what you say is true, I don't think it's fair that people who have left the UK should be given a vote on what happens to the future of the UK. If you resigned from your job to move to another company, you wouldn't expect to have rights within your old company, even if one day you intended to work for them again.

.....ok I will say it like this. I don’t think it’s fair that you should comment on a Bolton Wanderers forum. I know you love Bolton and come from Bolton but you chose to move away to Preston, so it’s not right that you can comment on here, even though the rules of the forum (for that, read EU law relating to voting rights of ex-pats in Elections as an example) say that you can. It’s MY opinion (not, understanding of the law) that you shouldn’t be allowed to post (and now, like many British patriotic idiots would say, fuck off back to Preston), but I do agree (not) with a lot of the things you have said.

Dunkels King wrote:I don’t care what you think

If you don't care what I think why keep replying to my posts?

And now Boris is gone (and good riddance to the big fat liar). Tomorrow Liam Fox?

What a shambles Cameron has left us with.