Brexit negotiations

There should be a second referendum for the simple reason that, at the time of the first, the clear majority of British people did not understand Brexit and the idea of leaving the EU was based on false pretence. If the government wasn't sure on the process and what Brexit meant then how could the public be expected to?

Now that everyone has had the opportunity to better educate themselves (after having it rammed down our throats for the past 2 and a half years) and finally understands what they're actually voting for, surely now is the time to take it to the vote.

xmiles wrote:If brexit is such a great thing surely people will vote for it again if there is a second referendum. However brexiteers are scared to hold a second vote because they are worried people might just understand exactly what is on offer.

You might be right, a second vote may go the other way. But that really isn't the point as you well know.

We had a vote, a clear result was given, that is the end of the story.

Here's an idea... there should be 5 multiple choice questions on the subject at the top of the voting slip. Answer these questions correctly and your vote counts. Get them wrong and your vote doesn't count because you're too stupid to bother finding out what you're actually voting for. Seems fair to me.

You seem to be suggesting that less well educated people might be inclined to vote brexit fin.

finlaymcdanger wrote:There should be a second referendum for the simple reason that, at the time of the first, the clear majority of British people did not understand Brexit and the idea of leaving the EU was based on false pretence. If the government wasn't sure on the process and what Brexit meant then how could the public be expected to?

Now that everyone has had the opportunity to better educate themselves (after having it rammed down our throats for the past 2 and a half years) and finally understands what they're actually voting for, surely now is the time to take it to the vote.

I agree.
Furthermore, it should have been stipulated that anything less than a 60-40 split would have ensured the status quo.
The Brexiteers were sold a lie, and are coming to understand the consequences.
Brexit doesn't mean Brexit. It means chaos.

I'm not sure how it will affect slipper imports, but it's got me worried.

Time to stockpile slippers bonce. The latest plans from the EU don't seem to cover slipper exports.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46617152

xmiles wrote:You seem to be suggesting that less well educated people might be inclined to vote brexit fin.

Is that how it sounds? 

No. I'm just saying that I think the public should have been better educated, not lied to, and therefore protected from committing to a future they didn't (and still don't) understand. Having a rudimentary understanding of what you're voting for should be a requirement to my mind.

finlaymcdanger wrote:

xmiles wrote:You seem to be suggesting that less well educated people might be inclined to vote brexit fin.

Is that how it sounds? 

No. I'm just saying that I think the public should have been better educated, not lied to, and therefore protected from committing to a future they didn't (and still don't) understand. Having a rudimentary understanding of what you're voting for should be a requirement to my mind.

I completely agree. Both campaigns were a travesty.

Dunkels King wrote:

Hipster_Nebula wrote:Because the result of the first vote will have been ignored?

Quite simple really.

If you did that in a general election I take it you'd be fine with it?

In a General Election a 52/48 split would not count as a majority. In a General Election the ex-pats denied a vote in the referendum would have got to vote. Fuck "democracy". It's a joke. People voted for something that was an imposibility to start with, but Farage and Johnson papered over that fact by spinning lie after lie.

Yes you're right no one ever lies in a general election campaign.

Some good news for brexit fans - Corbyn has confirmed that he would continue to pursue Brexit if Labour won a snap general election in 2019. This despite the fact that Labour voters overwhelmingly support remain.

I’m still undecided on a second referendum, were it to reverse the decision what would that say for democracy? Imagine the backlash.

Negotiating a good deal would be my favoured choice.

Since when has giving people a vote been undemocratic?

Only since brexit fans have been framing the debate in this way. The right wing media is very good at framing debate in this way.

To quote wki: The framing effect is an example of cognitive bias, in which people react to a particular choice in different ways depending on how it is presented; e.g. as a loss or as a gain. People tend to avoid risk when a positive frame is presented but seek risks when a negative frame is presented.

I’m not saying it would be undemocratic, in my view the referendum should never have happened - maybe that’s undemocratic?

But for me the fact it did happen means the result should be respected and upheld. Just not in the way the Tories want it too. Keeping close ties with the EU and limiting the economic impact would respect both sides.

I don't see how any deal at all will actually be done. Since the 27 parliaments of all the other EU states must ratify any deal unanimously it seems at best highly unlikely that any deal that even appears to be good for the UK will be shot down instantly. After all there are plenty of reasons why countries like Poland, Italy, Spain and Greece to name but a few might not want to do anything that appears to help us.

We can't find a better deal with the red lines Teresa May set down, but they were a nonsense when she did and a nonsense now - it was probably her biggest mistake trying to justify herself to leavers by advocating a hard Brexit. Had we spent the last 2 years chasing a Norway type deal though we'd probably have got one by now.

Interesting article on the BBC today dispelling the lie that "the EU needs us more than we need them". Looking at the trade figures, we're risking far more than the other 2 countries combined.
No wonder they won't roll over.

They are well aware that they have strength in numbers.

Don’t think we can blame the EU for sticking to the terms they expressed before the referendum. Our position changed, there’s never has.