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2018 Budget

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xmiles
wanderlust
Angry Dad
boltonbonce
Cajunboy
bwfc71
rammywhite
karlypants
Natasha Whittam
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312018 Budget - Page 3 Empty Re: 2018 Budget Tue Oct 30 2018, 17:25

Angry Dad

Angry Dad
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff

Natasha Whittam wrote:I agree that the budget doesn't go nearly far enough but no government, Tory or Labour, will ever be brave enough to make the tough decisions that actually make things fairer.

1) Stop making the NHS "free for everyone". Make all those people having treatment for conditions they brought on themselves PAY FOR THEIR FUCKING TREATMENT. If some obese person wants a gastric band, make them pay for it. If someone smoked 80 fags a day or drank 20 pints every night, don't be wasting resources on them. If they want help, make them pay. Also, while clearly not their own fault, couples who want IVF should be paying. Not having children is not a sickness or disease. There are people with cancer not getting the drugs they need because couples are getting £5,000 per cycle for IVF.

2) Stop paying for people to have children. Stop handing out child benefit, stop handing out free nursery places. We seem to have reached a situation where people have kids and then expect the taxpayer to pay for them. If you want a kid, then fucking pay for him or her.

These two obvious changes would transform the budget for the NHS, universal credit, mental health etc. I can't imagine any decent, sane person not agreeing with me. 25 stone Janice with 4 kids from Crawley, probably not so much.
I like it.

322018 Budget - Page 3 Empty Re: 2018 Budget Tue Oct 30 2018, 18:00

karlypants

karlypants
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

wanderlust wrote:
Norpig wrote:An end to austerity, that made me laugh! Tell that to the hundreds of thousands of people struggling with Universal credit and using foodbanks.
They, along with the homeless and mental health sufferers don't exist in Toryland. The Police, Local Councils, NHS workers and Teachers are already lined up to be sacrificed next to keep their millionaire backers happy in their foreign homes.

:clap: :clap:

332018 Budget - Page 3 Empty Re: 2018 Budget Tue Oct 30 2018, 18:47

Guest


Guest

Angry Dad wrote:
Natasha Whittam wrote:I agree that the budget doesn't go nearly far enough but no government, Tory or Labour, will ever be brave enough to make the tough decisions that actually make things fairer.

1) Stop making the NHS "free for everyone". Make all those people having treatment for conditions they brought on themselves PAY FOR THEIR FUCKING TREATMENT. If some obese person wants a gastric band, make them pay for it. If someone smoked 80 fags a day or drank 20 pints every night, don't be wasting resources on them. If they want help, make them pay. Also, while clearly not their own fault, couples who want IVF should be paying. Not having children is not a sickness or disease. There are people with cancer not getting the drugs they need because couples are getting £5,000 per cycle for IVF.

2) Stop paying for people to have children. Stop handing out child benefit, stop handing out free nursery places. We seem to have reached a situation where people have kids and then expect the taxpayer to pay for them. If you want a kid, then fucking pay for him or her.

These two obvious changes would transform the budget for the NHS, universal credit, mental health etc. I can't imagine any decent, sane person not agreeing with me. 25 stone Janice with 4 kids from Crawley, probably not so much.
I like it.

Don't disagree with some of your issues in point 1 - however I doubt making those changes would have a major impact on NHS finances.

However you're wrong on point 2 - there is a clear and negative impact in getting rid of child benefits, poverty affects education, chances of getting a job later in life and their health - all of which have a future impact on their likelihood to become a productive member of society and not be a drain on the state either through ill health or lack of productivity. You're not going to be able to limit the amount of children people have (look to China for reference).

342018 Budget - Page 3 Empty Re: 2018 Budget Tue Oct 30 2018, 19:17

xmiles

xmiles
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha

T.R.O.Y wrote:
Angry Dad wrote:
Natasha Whittam wrote:I agree that the budget doesn't go nearly far enough but no government, Tory or Labour, will ever be brave enough to make the tough decisions that actually make things fairer.

1) Stop making the NHS "free for everyone". Make all those people having treatment for conditions they brought on themselves PAY FOR THEIR FUCKING TREATMENT. If some obese person wants a gastric band, make them pay for it. If someone smoked 80 fags a day or drank 20 pints every night, don't be wasting resources on them. If they want help, make them pay. Also, while clearly not their own fault, couples who want IVF should be paying. Not having children is not a sickness or disease. There are people with cancer not getting the drugs they need because couples are getting £5,000 per cycle for IVF.

2) Stop paying for people to have children. Stop handing out child benefit, stop handing out free nursery places. We seem to have reached a situation where people have kids and then expect the taxpayer to pay for them. If you want a kid, then fucking pay for him or her.

These two obvious changes would transform the budget for the NHS, universal credit, mental health etc. I can't imagine any decent, sane person not agreeing with me. 25 stone Janice with 4 kids from Crawley, probably not so much.
I like it.

Don't disagree with some of your issues in point 1 - however I doubt making those changes would have a major impact on NHS finances.

However you're wrong on point 2 - there is a clear and negative impact in getting rid of child benefits, poverty affects education, chances of getting a job later in life and their health - all of which have a future impact on their likelihood to become a productive member of society and not be a drain on the state either through ill health or lack of productivity. You're not going to be able to limit the amount of children people have (look to China for reference).

I have a lot of sympathy with point 1 but doubt that it would be practical to implement in full. Charging for IVF and non-medical plastic surgery might be possible but what politician would advocate it?

Far more practical would be either a revaluation of council tax bands so people in large houses paid a realistic amount or even better a mansion tax. Most rich people pay very little tax.

352018 Budget - Page 3 Empty Re: 2018 Budget Tue Oct 30 2018, 19:30

okocha

okocha
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf

[size=17]British government debt has gone up, not down, despite the cuts, from 52.3% of GDP in 2009 to 85.6% this year.  Austerity has failed massively and this budget certainly doesn't even pretend to address the problem adequately. Police, schools and local councils have every right to be aggrieved when potholes are considered more important. 
Meanwhile we continue with HS2 and big spending on updating nuclear weapons. Notice....not a word on climate change issues. The Nasty Party ploughs on with making the wealthy richer whereas the poor are given paltry tax cuts. The bedroom tax was kinder than Universal Credit![/size]

362018 Budget - Page 3 Empty Re: 2018 Budget Tue Oct 30 2018, 19:50

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

T.R.O.Y wrote:Don't disagree with some of your issues in point 1 - however I doubt making those changes would have a major impact on NHS finances.

Obesity costs the NHS at least 6 billion quid a year. Smoking related illnesses cost the NHS 2.7 billion quid a year. Even IVF costs the NHS £400m per year. Those are massive figures....imagine an NHS with an extra 9 billion quid a year. Tell me that wouldn't make a huge difference to cancer patients and people with other serious illnesses.

T.R.O.Y wrote:However you're wrong on point 2 - there is a clear and negative impact in getting rid of child benefits, poverty affects education, chances of getting a job later in life and their health - all of which have a future impact on their likelihood to become a productive member of society and not be a drain on the state either through ill health or lack of productivity. You're not going to be able to limit the amount of children people have (look to China for reference).

Of course there are problems associated with such a radical plan. But if there was no state help for people who have kids it would certainly put some people off. We need to move away from a culture of hand outs. Help should be there for people who fall on hard times, not to help bring even more lives into an over populated world.

372018 Budget - Page 3 Empty Re: 2018 Budget Tue Oct 30 2018, 20:03

Guest


Guest

Fair enough but if those numbers are accurate it’s still less than 10% of the annual budget - but I take your point it would make a big difference.

You’ve missed my second point though, there’s a long term economic benefit of having a more equal society and supporting those in need, you shouldn’t consider it a drain.

382018 Budget - Page 3 Empty Re: 2018 Budget Tue Oct 30 2018, 20:12

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

T.R.O.Y wrote:You’ve missed my second point though, there’s a long term economic benefit of having a more equal society and supporting those in need, you shouldn’t consider it a drain.

I don't think it's a drain if people are genuinely deserving of help. But having a kid shouldn't automatically give you access to a range of benefits.

So Mary is 18, left home, nowhere to live so gets herself pregnant in order to get a flat and access to benefits. However, if there were no homes/benefits available to people who have a kid don't you think Mary would think twice before having a child?

392018 Budget - Page 3 Empty Re: 2018 Budget Tue Oct 30 2018, 20:36

Guest


Guest

No I think people are fucking idiots. But punishing their children is immoral and increases the likelihood of that child becoming a drain on the economy in future.

402018 Budget - Page 3 Empty Re: 2018 Budget Wed Oct 31 2018, 08:42

Norpig

Norpig
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Once you start charging for services on the NHS it will start a slide to full blown privatisation which cannot be allowed to happen. In some areas IVF isn't allowed on the NHS already which is worse i think as penalises couples who live in the "wrong" areas.

412018 Budget - Page 3 Empty Re: 2018 Budget Wed Oct 31 2018, 09:03

xmiles

xmiles
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha

Totally opposed to any more privatisation of the NHS but there are some procedures like IVF which are not medically required, they are matters of choice. In addition there are time wasters who call 999 or go to A&E or GPs when they don't need to.

However the fundamental problem remains this government's criminal underfunding of the NHS over the past 8 years. We have one of the lowest levels of doctors, nurses and hospital beds per head of population in the western world and sadly too few people realise this.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwi3r_rdqLDeAhVlDsAKHZgOCJ8QFjAAegQIBxAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nationalhealthexecutive.com%2FHealth-Care-News%2Fnhs-has-one-of-lowest-levels-of-doctors-and-nurses-in-western-world&usg=AOvVaw0eapqr6Q5qaoY7GZFgigiM

422018 Budget - Page 3 Empty Re: 2018 Budget Wed Oct 31 2018, 09:26

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Norpig wrote:Once you start charging for services on the NHS it will start a slide to full blown privatisation which cannot be allowed to happen.

It doesn't have to be. It's quite clear what diseases are self-inflicted. Don't you think it's wrong that some cancer patients are being denied expensive drugs in one room, and down the hall someone is having £10k or £15k spent on their IVF treatment.

There shouldn't be a postcode lottery, it should simply be "we pay for this" and "we don't pay for that", same all over the UK.

It baffles me that anyone would think this isn't a fair way of helping the NHS.

432018 Budget - Page 3 Empty Re: 2018 Budget Wed Oct 31 2018, 09:28

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

xmiles wrote:However the fundamental problem remains this government's criminal underfunding of the NHS over the past 8 years.

Oh get a grip, the NHS has been underfunded for decades. Don't make out this is simply a Tory issue.

442018 Budget - Page 3 Empty Re: 2018 Budget Wed Oct 31 2018, 09:33

Norpig

Norpig
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

But what happens when the patients with self inflicted illnesses refuse to pay for treatment and then become seriously ill? Do you turn round and say no we can't treat you? They will still end up being seen by the NHS one way or another.

I do agree about cancer treatments but generally drugs are only refused funding because they are hideously expensive and may only prolong life by a matter of months.

As for IVF, its a very emotive issue. Do we really want to say to people desperate to have children that sorry you're going to have to pay?  I think the NHS pay for 3 cycles then after that you have to fund yourself.

452018 Budget - Page 3 Empty Re: 2018 Budget Wed Oct 31 2018, 09:36

xmiles

xmiles
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha

Natasha Whittam wrote:
xmiles wrote:However the fundamental problem remains this government's criminal underfunding of the NHS over the past 8 years.

Oh get a grip, the NHS has been underfunded for decades. Don't make out this is simply a Tory issue.


You are completely wrong. Under Labour funding increased but since 2010 it has declined in real terms. Just look at the FACTS for once. Here for example:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwj1kZ_vr7DeAhWBJMAKHc2NBhEQFjAAegQICBAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nuffieldtrust.org.uk%2Fnews-item%2F70-years-of-nhs-spending&usg=AOvVaw1UZlXx-A2WlJIYtckwZAwy

462018 Budget - Page 3 Empty Re: 2018 Budget Wed Oct 31 2018, 09:41

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

I am completely right, this has been an issue my whole lifetime.

472018 Budget - Page 3 Empty Re: 2018 Budget Wed Oct 31 2018, 09:45

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Norpig wrote:But what happens when the patients with self inflicted illnesses refuse to pay for treatment and then become seriously ill? Do you turn round and say no we can't treat you?

That's exactly what I would do. Yes, it would be tough but eventually people might get the message that the NHS isn't going to bail you out if you continue to abuse your body.

Norpig wrote:As for IVF, its a very emotive issue. Do we really want to say to people desperate to have children that sorry you're going to have to pay?  I think the NHS pay for 3 cycles then after that you have to fund yourself.  

Yes it's a sensitive issue, and I feel for those people, but the NHS is in crisis and some tough decisions need to be made. We can't keep going through life being scared to make tough decisions that might upset a small group of people.

482018 Budget - Page 3 Empty Re: 2018 Budget Wed Oct 31 2018, 09:52

xmiles

xmiles
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha

Natasha Whittam wrote:I am completely right, this has been an issue my whole lifetime.

No you are completely wrong. You obviously haven't even looked at any factual evidence. Just for once in your life look at some FACTS.

492018 Budget - Page 3 Empty Re: 2018 Budget Wed Oct 31 2018, 09:58

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

xmiles wrote:No you are completely wrong. You obviously haven't even looked at any factual evidence. Just for once in your life look at some FACTS.

Just because you post a link doesn't make it a fact.

You're blinkered in virtually everything you do by Tory hatred.

502018 Budget - Page 3 Empty Re: 2018 Budget Wed Oct 31 2018, 10:03

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

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