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Club Future - Administration or bust?

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301Club Future - Administration or bust? - Page 11 Empty Re: Club Future - Administration or bust? on Fri Mar 15 2019, 16:27

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:Thanks for that summary Sluffy.

Some serious work and time spent on that.

We seem to be in a bit of a flux!!

Plenty more happening today.

Lot's of headline 'bad' news already but stuff going on apparently in private.

I'll try to do another summary again late this evening my time permitting.

302Club Future - Administration or bust? - Page 11 Empty Re: Club Future - Administration or bust? on Fri Mar 15 2019, 16:34

wanderlust


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
So the deal is off.

Somehow I just knew Anderson would snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

303Club Future - Administration or bust? - Page 11 Empty Re: Club Future - Administration or bust? on Fri Mar 15 2019, 16:44

karlypants

karlypants
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
A bit like brexit this!

Let the club go bust and have done with it!!!

304Club Future - Administration or bust? - Page 11 Empty Re: Club Future - Administration or bust? on Fri Mar 15 2019, 16:46

Boggersbelief

Boggersbelief
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:A bit like brexit this!

Let the club go bust and have done with it!!!

Let the club go bust.. what

305Club Future - Administration or bust? - Page 11 Empty Re: Club Future - Administration or bust? on Fri Mar 15 2019, 16:58

wanderlust


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:A bit like brexit this!

Let the club go bust and have done with it!!!

Let the club go bust.. what
The accounts have been shown to people outside of Anderson's circle and Anderson is involved in the negotiations which have gone from "sold in principle" to "no deal" in a week. 
Can't believe Anderson would put his own money in the club so barring a miracle intervention from someone capable of persuading Anderson to get real, I think going bust would be his preferred option. Club was worth over £40 million when he took over.

306Club Future - Administration or bust? - Page 11 Empty Re: Club Future - Administration or bust? on Fri Mar 15 2019, 17:21

Norpig

Norpig
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
I had a feeling this would happen! Will Eddie Davies estate now not step in and take over? Would that before or after HMRC put us into administration?

307Club Future - Administration or bust? - Page 11 Empty Re: Club Future - Administration or bust? on Fri Mar 15 2019, 17:24

Cajunboy

Cajunboy
Andy Walker
Andy Walker
SHIT, more FLUX!!!

308Club Future - Administration or bust? - Page 11 Empty Re: Club Future - Administration or bust? on Fri Mar 15 2019, 17:27

Boggersbelief

Boggersbelief
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
I’m just questioning what Karl said, a supposed Bolton fan wanting the club to go bust

309Club Future - Administration or bust? - Page 11 Empty Re: Club Future - Administration or bust? on Fri Mar 15 2019, 17:29

Norpig

Norpig
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
I don't think KP really wants us to go bust, he probably means lets just go into administration and start again.

310Club Future - Administration or bust? - Page 11 Empty Re: Club Future - Administration or bust? on Fri Mar 15 2019, 17:33

Cajunboy

Cajunboy
Andy Walker
Andy Walker
Anything but ANDERSON.

311Club Future - Administration or bust? - Page 11 Empty Re: Club Future - Administration or bust? on Fri Mar 15 2019, 17:48

karlypants

karlypants
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:I’m just questioning what Karl said, a supposed Bolton fan wanting the club to go bust

It’s called throwing your toys out of the pram. :biggrin:

312Club Future - Administration or bust? - Page 11 Empty Re: Club Future - Administration or bust? on Fri Mar 15 2019, 17:53

wanderlust


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
What now?

Liquidation more likely than administration as we can't afford it? Ron billionaire or another new buyer in the wings still waiting for Anderson to go? Burnden Leisure ceases to exist and we are reborn in the lower leagues a la Glasgow Rangers?

313Club Future - Administration or bust? - Page 11 Empty Re: Club Future - Administration or bust? on Fri Mar 15 2019, 18:29

Boggersbelief

Boggersbelief
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Anderson can’t afford the wages let alone admin. The Davies family aren’t gonna let the club liquidate either. 

Basran stepping away is a ploy to force Anderson’s hand. KA doesn’t have many more cards left to play, it will be over soon.

314Club Future - Administration or bust? - Page 11 Empty Re: Club Future - Administration or bust? on Fri Mar 15 2019, 19:09

Hipster_Nebula

Hipster_Nebula
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Let's hope it's liquidation. I don't think the points deduction that comes with admin is going to do us favours.

315Club Future - Administration or bust? - Page 11 Empty Re: Club Future - Administration or bust? on Fri Mar 15 2019, 21:42

maconman


Mario Jardel
Mario Jardel
I apologise if I am repeating myself but I never did understand why Ken borrowed £5m from Eddie for the benefit of the club. So the Club now owns Ken £5m and Ken owns Eddie £5m. I can only believe that there was something devious behind it.

316Club Future - Administration or bust? - Page 11 Empty Re: Club Future - Administration or bust? on Fri Mar 15 2019, 23:01

wessy

wessy
Andy Walker
Andy Walker
Liquidation means the end of Bolton Wanderers? or am i missing something. Not interested in BWFC 2019 i want my club to survive this. And in so doing keep it's history.

317Club Future - Administration or bust? - Page 11 Empty Re: Club Future - Administration or bust? on Sat Mar 16 2019, 00:43

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
What we've learned today.

Depends on what you believe on the internet but let us start with what we think we know -

Basran Consortium calls off deal
BBC Radio Manchester Sports reports that Forest Green owner Vince commences court action against us.
HMRC winder due on Wednesday - amount outstanding £1.2 million.
No change of ownership whilst Winder on going.
Only payment of Winder can be made by  owners of the club which still in the hands of KA (Inner Circle Investments) even though he has defaulted on Eddie Davies personal loan to him for which he put up as collateral the ownership shares.
Whatever happens KA owes Eddie Davies/Moonshine circa £8 million.
There appears to be something like £16m of secured creditors that are owed money from the club (James, Warburton, KA(?), the bank, others?) and something like £13 million of unsecured (HMRC, police, Business Rates, Heathcote, etc).
The EFL through its 'golden share' in all clubs in the league will not permit Administration taking place without the means ALL secured creditors being paid in full and all unsecured creditors paid a minimum of 25% - so whoever wants Administration needs to have something like £20 million, plus £1.5 million per month to finance the club during Admin.  KA hasn't got anything like that.  
Basran was trying to but the club by funding the money KA needs to clear off the lien on the shares (about £8 million) and come to deals with all the other creditors - seems they couldn't find enough to afford that (at least at this stage of the saga), even with James (and probably Warburton) not pushing for their secured debts.
If nothing changes at the £1.2m HMRC Winder isn't paid on Wednesday - it's liquidation.

However it needn't end that way - and almost certainly won't.

It is more likely that someone will buy the debt owed by KA to Eddie from Moonshift (probably for much less than the £8 million outstanding.  This will mean KA will still need to find £8 million to pay the new owner of his debt (as that amount won't change).  This will probably be done on the day before or even the morning of, the Winder.
A formal bid for the company will then be announced and thus delay the Winder.
Finally a formal notification to KA that in 14 days his shares will be redeemed due to default on the loan.
I do have one or two loose ends I can't quite tie up about this but no doubt things will be made clearer in due course.

I think that is how I've understood correctly most of what I've read.

Onwards and upwards still.

318Club Future - Administration or bust? - Page 11 Empty Re: Club Future - Administration or bust? on Sat Mar 16 2019, 02:27

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:I apologise if I am repeating myself but I never did understand why Ken borrowed £5m from Eddie for the benefit of the club. So the Club now owns Ken £5m and Ken owns Eddie £5m. I can only believe that there was something devious behind it.

In simple terms only one thing as changed - the clubs ownership is now held by Eddie's estate rather than Anderson - until KA can pay the debt back.

Eddie's estate can now sell the debt on to someone else, who can foreclose on the debt and force KA out of the club.

319Club Future - Administration or bust? - Page 11 Empty Re: Club Future - Administration or bust? on Sat Mar 16 2019, 08:25

T.R.O.Y


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
What a mess, but no surprise nobody wants to buy a club losing money that owes as much as we do. What possible ROI is there?

320Club Future - Administration or bust? - Page 11 Empty Re: Club Future - Administration or bust? on Sat Mar 16 2019, 11:30

terenceanne

terenceanne
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf
As I have said before.....any business person looking at the finances of football would run for the hills. As investments you would be better off buying a chain of chip shops. If it's true that the consortium has backed out then they probably finally realized that millions would need to be pumped in and no profit to be made anytime in the near future if ever.
The answer....we need a billionaire who wants a toy and is prepared to piss away the pocket change needed for us to move forward. In the absence of that person stepping forward.....looks like a pad lock is going on the front door to me.

321Club Future - Administration or bust? - Page 11 Empty Re: Club Future - Administration or bust? on Sat Mar 16 2019, 11:37

observer


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:As I have said before.....any business person looking at the finances of football would run for the hills. As investments you would be better off buying a chain of chip shops. If it's true that the consortium has backed out then they probably finally realized that millions would need to be pumped in and no profit to be made anytime in the near future if ever.
The answer....we need a billionaire who wants a toy and is prepared to piss away the pocket change needed for us to move forward. In the absence of that person stepping forward.....looks like a pad lock is going on the front door to me.
By the way, what happened to KA's statement that the club would make a profit this year?

322Club Future - Administration or bust? - Page 11 Empty Re: Club Future - Administration or bust? on Sat Mar 16 2019, 11:43

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:What a mess, but no surprise nobody wants to buy a club losing money that owes as much as we do. What possible ROI is there?

I don't know.  I keep asking that question but never seem to get a convincing reply back.

I think the answer probably sits outside our understanding of business and more about corporate investors, hedge funds and the like, buying and selling debt and how to make returns from it.

Clearly though people do want to buy the club - I only hope they want it for the right reasons.

323Club Future - Administration or bust? - Page 11 Empty Re: Club Future - Administration or bust? on Sat Mar 16 2019, 11:44

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:As I have said before.....any business person looking at the finances of football would run for the hills. As investments you would be better off buying a chain of chip shops. If it's true that the consortium has backed out then they probably finally realized that millions would need to be pumped in and no profit to be made anytime in the near future if ever.
The answer....we need a billionaire who wants a toy and is prepared to piss away the pocket change needed for us to move forward. In the absence of that person stepping forward.....looks like a pad lock is going on the front door to me.
By the way, what happened to KA's statement that the club would make a profit this year?

He's said that the next set of accounts due at the end of the month will show a small profit - is that what you mean Obs?

324Club Future - Administration or bust? - Page 11 Empty Re: Club Future - Administration or bust? on Sat Mar 16 2019, 11:49

wanderlust


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:As I have said before.....any business person looking at the finances of football would run for the hills. As investments you would be better off buying a chain of chip shops. If it's true that the consortium has backed out then they probably finally realized that millions would need to be pumped in and no profit to be made anytime in the near future if ever.
The answer....we need a billionaire who wants a toy and is prepared to piss away the pocket change needed for us to move forward. In the absence of that person stepping forward.....looks like a pad lock is going on the front door to me.
By the way, what happened to KA's statement that the club would make a profit this year?
I'm not sure they're letting Anderson write the accounts any more so he won't be able to bump a mountain of expenditure into a different time period to try to give the appearance of him doing a decent job.

Still waiting to see what he's personally taken out of the club in his time with us, but I think we already have an indication of his incompetence as a "businessman" and his disregard for BWFC.

325Club Future - Administration or bust? - Page 11 Empty Re: Club Future - Administration or bust? on Sat Mar 16 2019, 11:51

observer


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:As I have said before.....any business person looking at the finances of football would run for the hills. As investments you would be better off buying a chain of chip shops. If it's true that the consortium has backed out then they probably finally realized that millions would need to be pumped in and no profit to be made anytime in the near future if ever.
The answer....we need a billionaire who wants a toy and is prepared to piss away the pocket change needed for us to move forward. In the absence of that person stepping forward.....looks like a pad lock is going on the front door to me.
By the way, what happened to KA's statement that the club would make a profit this year?

He's said that the next set of accounts due at the end of the month will show a small profit - is that what you mean Obs?

"I expect to show this year a profit, albeit a small one, whereas most clubs are out there losing millions of pounds," he told BBC Radio Manchester.

If in fact, he has brought the club into profit, then the question is why no one wants to buy a profitable club.  Perhaps KA left out debt service of the loans in the equation? That would certainly skew the statement that might put off a potential purchaser.

326Club Future - Administration or bust? - Page 11 Empty Re: Club Future - Administration or bust? on Sat Mar 16 2019, 12:34

wanderlust


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:As I have said before.....any business person looking at the finances of football would run for the hills. As investments you would be better off buying a chain of chip shops. If it's true that the consortium has backed out then they probably finally realized that millions would need to be pumped in and no profit to be made anytime in the near future if ever.
The answer....we need a billionaire who wants a toy and is prepared to piss away the pocket change needed for us to move forward. In the absence of that person stepping forward.....looks like a pad lock is going on the front door to me.
By the way, what happened to KA's statement that the club would make a profit this year?

He's said that the next set of accounts due at the end of the month will show a small profit - is that what you mean Obs?
"I expect to show this year a profit, albeit a small one, whereas most clubs are out there losing millions of pounds," he told BBC Radio Manchester.


If in fact, he has brought the club into profit, then the question is why no one wants to buy a profitable club.  Perhaps KA left out debt service of the loans in the equation? That would certainly skew the statement that might put off a potential purchaser.
I imagine - in fact I was told last year -  that Anderson has been less than honest with the accounts, suppliers, fans, creditors and potential investors at the time so it would be unsurprising if he's still at it. 

If there is a credible buyer in the wings they could still step in at the last minute buy the debt and could stop the winding up order. If Anderson hands over his shares I'm sure Moonshift would or could have a big hand in the sale process, indeed be a vehicle for it, but unfortunately to some extent the ball is still in Anderson's court. That said there is considerable mounting pressure on him now. 

If not beforehand, the HMRC winding up order will be D Day for us one way or the other.

327Club Future - Administration or bust? - Page 11 Empty Re: Club Future - Administration or bust? on Sat Mar 16 2019, 14:29

Cajunboy

Cajunboy
Andy Walker
Andy Walker
We seem to be at a  very sad sobering moment for our club.

I feel quite stunned that our future  looks so bleak.

328Club Future - Administration or bust? - Page 11 Empty Re: Club Future - Administration or bust? on Mon Mar 18 2019, 11:10

wanderlust


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
A few people have mentioned that Anderson's debt to the Davies family is £8 million, £5 million of which is secured against club assets. Does anyone know any details of this? - I'm just trying to work out what would be required to save the club.
Does it mean that ED loaned him 8 from the off but Anderson only put 5 of it into the club and kept 3 back? Or did ED give him the 3 on a different occasion?
Did Anderson pay the wages out of the 3?
If a potential saviour buys Anderson's debt does it mean they'd only have to buy the £5 million and the 3 would be Anderson's problem?

The more I find out about the arrangements, the more it seems to me that the decision to be liquidated - or not - is still very much in Anderson's hands i.e. it would be up to him to decide which course of action would have the least impact on his personal finances.

Your guidance appreciated.

329Club Future - Administration or bust? - Page 11 Empty Re: Club Future - Administration or bust? on Mon Mar 18 2019, 11:22

rammywhite

rammywhite
Frank Worthington
Frank Worthington
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:A few people have mentioned that Anderson's debt to the Davies family is £8 million, £5 million of which is secured against club assets. Does anyone know any details of this? - I'm just trying to work out what would be required to save the club.
Does it mean that ED loaned him 8 from the off but Anderson only put 5 of it into the club and kept 3 back? Or did ED give him the 3 on a different occasion?
Did Anderson pay the wages out of the 3?
If a potential saviour buys Anderson's debt does it mean they'd only have to buy the £5 million and the 3 would be Anderson's problem?

The more I find out about the arrangements, the more it seems to me that the decision to be liquidated - or not - is still very much in Anderson's hands i.e. it would be up to him to decide which course of action would have the least impact on his personal finances.

Your guidance appreciated.

Why ask Lusty when no-one on here, despite what they claim has a clue what's going on. Its all speculation with all the real facts held confidentially.
Some of the real financial data might emerge eventually, but everything on here seems  to me to be invention, hearsay and rumour

330Club Future - Administration or bust? - Page 11 Empty Re: Club Future - Administration or bust? on Mon Mar 18 2019, 12:12

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:A few people have mentioned that Anderson's debt to the Davies family is £8 million, £5 million of which is secured against club assets. Does anyone know any details of this? - I'm just trying to work out what would be required to save the club.
Does it mean that ED loaned him 8 from the off but Anderson only put 5 of it into the club and kept 3 back? Or did ED give him the 3 on a different occasion?
Did Anderson pay the wages out of the 3?
If a potential saviour buys Anderson's debt does it mean they'd only have to buy the £5 million and the 3 would be Anderson's problem?

The more I find out about the arrangements, the more it seems to me that the decision to be liquidated - or not - is still very much in Anderson's hands i.e. it would be up to him to decide which course of action would have the least impact on his personal finances.

Your guidance appreciated.

Guidance from me would be appreciated would it - considering you've rubbished (often abusively) everything I've posted on Anderson's tenure for the last three years?

As I've posted several times a secured loan understood to be for £5 million is shown as a charge against assets at Companies House.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

A bloke who randomly turned up on the internet just over a week ago (by the name of Howard) states that another £3 million is owed by KA to Eddie.  He first said it was secured but when challenged changed his narrative to being unsecured.  The bottom line though was that Moonshift would not settle with KA unless they got £8 million from him.

That's not to say Moonshift would not settle for less from someone other than KA and sell the debt on.  It could even be for less than the secured amount of £5 million if they wished to take a discount simply to remove themselves from the position they are currently holding over the lien on the club ownership.

Moonshift however would still have loans (unsecured?) against the clubs assets.  I seemed to have read in the past that they now stand at £10 million after various write offs by Eddie, but don't know how factual that is.  Maybe they amount to just the £3 million that is mentioned above as part of the £8 million - I don't know.

I doubt very much Anderson as much of a say over liquidation.  He can't sell the club until he's cleared the lien on ownership shares with Moonshift and he can't stave off HMRC £1.2m winder petition unless he pays it off.  It's basically out of his hands either way - unless he wants to dip his hand into his own pocket - if so does he have the money to do so?

If I was a betting man I would put my money on someone buying the club share ownership debt at the last minute (as creditors would be more willing to agree deals if they thought there was a growing possibility that they might be worse off if the club was to be liquidated), then give Anderson a 14 day notice off taking ownership due to his default on repayment.

I guess their plan might be to acquire ownership of the club with reduced /or all debts, settled, with assets in excess of cost paid to do so, then sell on (or break up and asset strip?).  Just be speculating though.

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