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General Election

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211General Election - Page 8 Empty Re: General Election on Thu Nov 21 2019, 13:32

Guest


Guest
@wanderlust wrote:
T.R.O.Y wrote:To revoke article 50 without putting an option to the people is unjustifiable - really not sure why that’s so difficult to follow?
Why is it unjustifiable? Surely that's just going from a position/deal that nobody either wants or voted for to a holding position where there is plenty of time to find out what people really want and work out the best way forward?

Sorry are you suggesting that the plan should be revoke Article 50, debate Brexit then start the withdrawal again?

212General Election - Page 8 Empty Re: General Election on Thu Nov 21 2019, 13:55

xmiles

xmiles
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha
@luckyPeterpiper wrote:In all honesty I believe a second referendum is necessary. I am a "Remain" supporter but that's not why I want this. Since the initial vote more than 200,000 people have turned 18 and now have the right to vote. Since it's my firm belief that the outcome of Brexit will have a far greater effect on our children's generation than our own I think it appropriate that their voice be heard and that the country has the opportunity to state how it feels now rather than how it did in 2016.

Much has changed since then including the fact that Boris Johnson's deal is catastrophically bad for the nation. As to Corbyn's 'deal' it doesn't even exist and there's absolutely no guarantee that the EU would accept it if he was in a position to put it to them OR that Parliament would agree to it if they did.

With no disrespect to lusty or xmiles I think they overestimate just how much time we have on this. I can't see the EU agreeing to yet another delay in Brexit so this is a matter that MUST be dealt with immediately following the Election. Personally I feel the referendum should have 3 options. The Johnson deal, a 'hard' brexit or remain.

One thing is very clear though. This country is divided in a way it probably hasn't been since 1641. If we are to heal those breaches anytime soon the screaming rhetoric and distasteful haranguing of those we disagree with must stop and I think a 2nd referendum may just be the way to do it.

Time is running out and that is why I think Boris's deal should be put to a referendum. Much as I like your suggestion of a 3 way choice I don't think it is practical. Leavers would argue that it splits the leave vote between two options.

I don't understand TROY's position on this. He opposes a vote on Boris's deal but supports a vote on a purely hypothetical Corbyn deal.

213General Election - Page 8 Empty Re: General Election on Thu Nov 21 2019, 14:05

xmiles

xmiles
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha
T.R.O.Y wrote:To revoke article 50 without putting an option to the people is unjustifiable - really not sure why that’s so difficult to follow?

Also don’t know how many times I need to say that I think a soft Brexit is the best option available now to bring people together. Compromise is the only way forward, not the extreme positions of Lib Dem or Tory.

So yes you can say I want to leave the EU if you want.

1. I disagree with you about revoking article 50 and believe a case can be made for it but what I am arguing for is a referendum on Boris's deal.

2. Sadly whether we stay or leave I don't think anything but time is going heal the damage caused by holding this totally needless referendum in 2016.

3. When the people wanting us to leave the EU are led by Boris, Farage, Rees-Mogg, Daily Mail, Telegraph and Sun and supported by Trump and Putin it clearly can't be good for ordinary people in the UK. Wanting to leave the EU is lining up on the same side as these and opposing what 70% of Labour voters wanted.

214General Election - Page 8 Empty Re: General Election on Thu Nov 21 2019, 14:07

Guest


Guest
It's not about opposing one, it's about what I think is a better option.

A labour deal where we stay in the customs union is a deal id rather see implemented.

Really not sure why you're struggling with that.

215General Election - Page 8 Empty Re: General Election on Thu Nov 21 2019, 14:09

xmiles

xmiles
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha
The best option is staying in the EU.

Really not sure why you're struggling with that.

216General Election - Page 8 Empty Re: General Election on Thu Nov 21 2019, 14:10

Guest


Guest
@xmiles wrote:3. When the people wanting us to leave the EU are led by Boris, Farage, Rees-Mogg, Daily Mail, Telegraph and Sun and supported by Trump and Putin it clearly can't be good for ordinary people in the UK. Wanting to leave the EU is lining up on the same side as these and opposing what 70% of Labour voters wanted.

I think this kind of polarisation is a big issue at the moment. You're taking a very complex issue with a range of potential outcomes and making it black and white.

I don't think leaving (under any circumstances) will be good for the UK. But I do think ignoring the vote will also be hugely damaging.

So take the deal which is not as economically damaging, get out and move on. 

Obviously we're not going to agree on this, but I think I've made it perfectly clear why I think that's the best thing to do.

217General Election - Page 8 Empty Re: General Election on Thu Nov 21 2019, 17:45

Angry Dad

Angry Dad
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
200,000 assuming they all vote you're still gonna lose buddy.

218General Election - Page 8 Empty Re: General Election on Thu Nov 21 2019, 21:09

xmiles

xmiles
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha
Is this fair?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50508009

Until donations to political parties are restricted to a reasonable level the Tories will always be financed by rich bastards many of whom are not even British.

219General Election - Page 8 Empty Re: General Election on Fri Nov 22 2019, 08:37

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@xmiles wrote:Is this fair?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50508009

Until donations to political parties are restricted to a reasonable level the Tories will always be financed by rich bastards many of whom are not even British.

Once uncontrolled political donations were used to buy peerages - now they buy policies, we have the corrupt "first past the post" electoral system instead of a proper democracy, we have a media that is allowed to spout propaganda and lies without sanction that has escalated into social media and personal data abuse that it out of control.

Who told you British politics is fair?
It's never been fair.
It's not even democratic.

220General Election - Page 8 Empty Re: General Election on Fri Nov 22 2019, 10:27

gloswhite

gloswhite
Guðni Bergsson
Guðni Bergsson
@xmiles wrote:Is this fair?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50508009

Until donations to political parties are restricted to a reasonable level the Tories will always be financed by rich bastards many of whom are not even British.
'Reasonable' meaning what the labour, and other parties, can afford.  We are being told constantly how many official members there are in the Labour Party, yet it seems nobody has the confidence to donate more than a very small amount. 
Please don't give me the argument that Labour voters are worse off, as there are some very rich Labour donors I'm sure. 
I wouldn't be surprised if they are keeping their money safe knowing that the ludicrous Labour manifesto is going to cost everyone a small fortune.

221General Election - Page 8 Empty Re: General Election on Fri Nov 22 2019, 10:44

Guest


Guest
Labour party members generated over £1 million in small donations in just 10 days at the beginning of November. 

For the many, not the few Glos.

222General Election - Page 8 Empty Re: General Election on Fri Nov 22 2019, 10:47

gloswhite

gloswhite
Guðni Bergsson
Guðni Bergsson
T.R.O.Y wrote:Labour party members generated over £1 million in small donations in just 10 days at the beginning of November. 

For the many, not the few Glos.
Fair enough, most commendable, but not quite sure what it was raised for, as the election cash only comes to £275k. 
Was it for charity? (genuine question)

223General Election - Page 8 Empty Re: General Election on Fri Nov 22 2019, 11:01

xmiles

xmiles
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha
@gloswhite wrote:
@xmiles wrote:Is this fair?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50508009

Until donations to political parties are restricted to a reasonable level the Tories will always be financed by rich bastards many of whom are not even British.
'Reasonable' meaning what the labour, and other parties, can afford.  We are being told constantly how many official members there are in the Labour Party, yet it seems nobody has the confidence to donate more than a very small amount. 
Please don't give me the argument that Labour voters are worse off, as there are some very rich Labour donors I'm sure. 
I wouldn't be surprised if they are keeping their money safe knowing that the ludicrous Labour manifesto is going to cost everyone a small fortune.

Reasonable is a figure that individuals who are not millionaires can afford. A figure of £1000 per annum per individual or company seems reasonable to me. Do you object to this glos?

It would help to stop the endemic corruption of the rich contributing literally millions of pounds to the Tories for services rendered or to be rendered.

224General Election - Page 8 Empty Re: General Election on Fri Nov 22 2019, 20:05

luckyPeterpiper

luckyPeterpiper
Frank Worthington
Frank Worthington
@Angry Dad wrote:200,000 assuming they all vote you're still gonna lose buddy.
Perhaps so AD maybe even probably so but I firmly believe their voices should be heard.

In truth while I voted Remain and still wish we'd won the initial referendum I wasn't particularly surprised by the outcome nor do I have any real problem with it except the campaigns on BOTH sides were full of lies and even worse half-truths that meant far too many people were unable to make a properly informed choice but that's politics for you and likely always will be.

What I am angry about is the half-arsed, completely incompetent bungling by both May and Johnson that's left us with a dreadful 'deal' that's of no tangible benefit to anyone in the UK. I think if the referendum had said "Leave on these terms" vs "Remain" the vote would have gone the other way.

Whatever happens next I am praying that our children and grandchildren don't wind up paying the price for a myopic, 'little england' decision that's been made in haste by people who swallowed the rhetoric of bigots like Farage.

Maybe I'm wrong, perhaps leaving will be good for the UK but I can't see how and it seems a large and growing number of British business and political figures agree with me.

225General Election - Page 8 Empty Re: General Election on Sat Nov 23 2019, 11:17

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@luckyPeterpiper wrote:
@Angry Dad wrote:200,000 assuming they all vote you're still gonna lose buddy.
Perhaps so AD maybe even probably so but I firmly believe their voices should be heard.

In truth while I voted Remain and still wish we'd won the initial referendum I wasn't particularly surprised by the outcome nor do I have any real problem with it except the campaigns on BOTH sides were full of lies and even worse half-truths that meant far too many people were unable to make a properly informed choice but that's politics for you and likely always will be.

What I am angry about is the half-arsed, completely incompetent bungling by both May and Johnson that's left us with a dreadful 'deal' that's of no tangible benefit to anyone in the UK. I think if the referendum had said "Leave on these terms" vs "Remain" the vote would have gone the other way.

Whatever happens next I am praying that our children and grandchildren don't wind up paying the price for a myopic, 'little england' decision that's been made in haste by people who swallowed the rhetoric of bigots like Farage.

Maybe I'm wrong, perhaps leaving will be good for the UK but I can't see how and it seems a large and growing number of British business and political figures agree with me.
The initial referendum was in 1975 and the country voted overwhelmingly (66%) to be part of the EU. It took a 40 year hate campaign from Rupert Murdoch et al and an illegal and dishonest disinformation campaign to overturn the people's will - and yet these folk still argue that once a referendum has happened there should never be another.

226General Election - Page 8 Empty Re: General Election on Sat Nov 23 2019, 12:10

xmiles

xmiles
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha
Logic or common sense have never been an element of the brexit mindset. They prefer ignorance and prejudice.

227General Election - Page 8 Empty Re: General Election on Sat Nov 23 2019, 14:10

okocha

okocha
Andy Walker
Andy Walker
Going back over the years to scrutinise someone's voting record is as irrelevant as giving present-day credence to a warped referendum from nearly four years ago. 
People inevitably change their minds as time passes and makes clear the untruths on which the referendum, for example, was based. I'm always staggered by those who say nothing has encouraged them to change their attitude after four years of debate.
Paul Simon: "Still a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest".

Having watched last night's depressing Leaders' debate, I am forced to feel I can't vote for any of them. How telling it would be if huge numbers of the electorate abstained! It would be a far clearer representation of the current mood of the nation!

228General Election - Page 8 Empty Re: General Election on Sat Nov 23 2019, 14:29

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@okocha wrote:Going back over the years to scrutinise someone's voting record is as irrelevant as giving present-day credence to a warped referendum from nearly four years ago. 
People inevitably change their minds as time passes and makes clear the untruths on which the referendum, for example, was based. I'm always staggered by those who say nothing has encouraged them to change their attitude after four years of debate.
Paul Simon: "Still a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest".

Having watched last night's depressing Leaders' debate, I am forced to feel I can't vote for any of them. How telling it would be if huge numbers of the electorate abstained! It would be a far clearer representation of the current mood of the nation!
...and it would facilitate shooing in a terrible deal with terrible consequences for the country. As mentioned previously, we've never had it so good and yet we're ready to throw it all away.

229General Election - Page 8 Empty Re: General Election on Sat Nov 23 2019, 15:03

xmiles

xmiles
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha
@okocha wrote:Going back over the years to scrutinise someone's voting record is as irrelevant as giving present-day credence to a warped referendum from nearly four years ago. 
People inevitably change their minds as time passes and makes clear the untruths on which the referendum, for example, was based. I'm always staggered by those who say nothing has encouraged them to change their attitude after four years of debate.
Paul Simon: "Still a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest".

Having watched last night's depressing Leaders' debate, I am forced to feel I can't vote for any of them. How telling it would be if huge numbers of the electorate abstained! It would be a far clearer representation of the current mood of the nation!

As WL has already pointed out that will just let Boris force through his terrible deal.

230General Election - Page 8 Empty Re: General Election on Sun Nov 24 2019, 21:28

sunlight

sunlight
Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
If everybody ate only that water-thin soup that Jermey Corbyn has on the benches of parliament on his lunch break there would be no obesity in Britain.

231General Election - Page 8 Empty Re: General Election on Sun Nov 24 2019, 21:52

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@sunlight wrote:If everybody ate only that water-thin soup that Jermey Corbyn has on the benches of parliament on his lunch break there would be no obesity in Britain.
Bring back gruel!
I'm quietly confident Borat will TBH. And as it's meat free it could be sold as an anti global warming measure.

232General Election - Page 8 Empty Re: General Election on Sun Nov 24 2019, 22:00

sunlight

sunlight
Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
@wanderlust wrote:
@sunlight wrote:If everybody ate only that water-thin soup that Jermey Corbyn has on the benches of parliament on his lunch break there would be no obesity in Britain.
Bring back gruel!
I'm quietly confident Borat will TBH. And as it's meat free it could be sold as an anti global warming measure.

Put that one to Greggs Pasties, for their Vegan range. Corbyn would want to pick a pocket or two with taxes.

233General Election - Page 8 Empty Re: General Election on Sun Nov 24 2019, 22:07

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@sunlight wrote:
@wanderlust wrote:
@sunlight wrote:If everybody ate only that water-thin soup that Jermey Corbyn has on the benches of parliament on his lunch break there would be no obesity in Britain.
Bring back gruel!
I'm quietly confident Borat will TBH. And as it's meat free it could be sold as an anti global warming measure.

Put that one to Greggs Pasties, for their Vegan range. Corbyn would want to pick a pocket or two with taxes.
Out of curiosity I tried a Greggs vegan sausage roll last month. For a quid you can get a reasonably tasty tube of vegetable fat.

234General Election - Page 8 Empty Re: General Election on Sun Nov 24 2019, 22:27

sunlight

sunlight
Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
Someone once brought some bags of pasties after going in Geggs ( without warning ) and offered myself a bag. It was a white bag and the content matter had leaked causing the paper bag to be transparent in parts of it in contact with the pastie. I was wondering if I should ring the Police as I suspected She was trying to poison me.

235General Election - Page 8 Empty Re: General Election on Mon Nov 25 2019, 01:54

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Yay! Borat is promising an extra 50,000 NHS nurses! And tighter immigration controls!
Questions anyone?

236General Election - Page 8 Empty Re: General Election on Mon Nov 25 2019, 13:19

Angry Dad

Angry Dad
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
@wanderlust wrote:Yay! Borat is promising an extra 50,000 NHS nurses! And tighter immigration controls!
Questions anyone?
Where are the nurses coming from.

237General Election - Page 8 Empty Re: General Election on Mon Nov 25 2019, 14:47

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Angry Dad wrote:
@wanderlust wrote:Yay! Borat is promising an extra 50,000 NHS nurses! And tighter immigration controls!
Questions anyone?
Where are the nurses coming from.
We have a winner!

238General Election - Page 8 Empty Re: General Election on Mon Nov 25 2019, 21:24

sunlight

sunlight
Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
Because the Nurses have all gone back to Spain and other Countries now that Brexit is about to happen and we havent got many left. A proper mess.

239General Election - Page 8 Empty Re: General Election on Tue Nov 26 2019, 02:16

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@sunlight wrote:Because the Nurses have all gone back to Spain and other Countries now that Brexit is about to happen and we havent got many left. A proper mess.
More to the point, it's yet another undeliverable empty promise with which to put the likes of Rupert Murdoch in control of our country regardless of the cost to ordinary British people, too many of whom are taken in by the web of lies and the anti-European propaganda campaign.

240General Election - Page 8 Empty Re: General Election on Wed Nov 27 2019, 15:05

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

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