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General Election

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61General Election - Page 3 Empty Re: General Election on Wed Nov 06 2019, 08:38

xmiles

xmiles
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
@wanderlust wrote:
Are you really suggesting that a vague promise and a shady cover up are better than the great deal already in the bag and our future influence as a member of the world's third largest trading bloc with the purchasing power that brings?
I certainly wouldn't be sacrificing that for chlorinated chicken, higher prices, a devalued currency, a defunct NHS and widespread unemployment.

You just don't believe in brexit enough and it will be your fault if brexit turns out badly.

As the brexit fans on this site no longer reply (apologies to glos who does sometimes Smile ) I have posted their reply for them. Smile

62General Election - Page 3 Empty Re: General Election on Wed Nov 06 2019, 09:11

okocha

okocha
Andy Walker
Andy Walker
Just in the last couple of days the Tories have: made appalling comments about Grenfell victims, slyly doctored a video to produce fake news on Labour, tried to defend a scandal involving the Welsh Secretary.....Even when confronted with facts, Tory spokesmen/women try to deny the truth. (For once in my life I applaud Piers for tearing Tory Party Chairman, James Cleverley, to pieces this morning!)

All the above adds to shameful language, illegal behaviour, lack of diplomacy, undermining of the judiciary, distortion of the truth, uncaring attitudes to suffering  etc. etc.

I want to be able to vote for a party with principles and worthy values, not a sly, manipulative set of hoodwinkers. Don't be taken in by their lies.

63General Election - Page 3 Empty Re: General Election on Wed Nov 06 2019, 09:25

xmiles

xmiles
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
@okocha wrote:Just in the last couple of days the Tories have: made appalling comments about Grenfell victims, slyly doctored a video to produce fake news on Labour, tried to defend a scandal involving the Welsh Secretary.....Even when confronted with facts, Tory spokesmen/women try to deny the truth. (For once in my life I applaud Piers for tearing Tory Party Chairman, James Cleverley, to pieces this morning!)

All the above adds to shameful language, illegal behaviour, lack of diplomacy, undermining of the judiciary, distortion of the truth, uncaring attitudes to suffering  etc. etc.

I want to be able to vote for a party with principles and worthy values, not a sly, manipulative set of hoodwinkers. Don't be taken in by their lies.

:agree:

64General Election - Page 3 Empty Re: General Election on Wed Nov 06 2019, 10:35

Angry Dad

Angry Dad
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
@okocha wrote:Just in the last couple of days the Tories have: made appalling comments about Grenfell victims, slyly doctored a video to produce fake news on Labour, tried to defend a scandal involving the Welsh Secretary.....Even when confronted with facts, Tory spokesmen/women try to deny the truth. (For once in my life I applaud Piers for tearing Tory Party Chairman, James Cleverley, to pieces this morning!)

All the above adds to shameful language, illegal behaviour, lack of diplomacy, undermining of the judiciary, distortion of the truth, uncaring attitudes to suffering  etc. etc.

I want to be able to vote for a party with principles and worthy values, not a sly, manipulative set of hoodwinkers. Don't be taken in by their lies.
Like Labour?????

65General Election - Page 3 Empty Re: General Election on Wed Nov 06 2019, 10:47

wanderlust


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Funny how they keep dragging out the argument that another referendum is a case of "just keep having them until you get the result you want"...

In the first EU referendum (and by the Leave campaign's argument should have been the ONLY referendum) the electorate voted overwhelmingly to be members of the EU 67% to 32%.

The second referendum in 2016 narrowly overturned that under highly suspicious circumstances and with our own Government blatantly continuing to suppress the facts about how it was achieved.

If we can have a second referendum, why not a third - especially as opinion now seems to have turned against it?

Curious to see where the Leave logic of "you can't keep going until you get the result you want" stands when in fact the second referendum in 2016 exemplified that very point.

66General Election - Page 3 Empty Re: General Election on Wed Nov 06 2019, 12:13

xmiles

xmiles
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
@okocha wrote:Just in the last couple of days the Tories have: made appalling comments about Grenfell victims, slyly doctored a video to produce fake news on Labour, tried to defend a scandal involving the Welsh Secretary.....Even when confronted with facts, Tory spokesmen/women try to deny the truth. (For once in my life I applaud Piers for tearing Tory Party Chairman, James Cleverley, to pieces this morning!)

All the above adds to shameful language, illegal behaviour, lack of diplomacy, undermining of the judiciary, distortion of the truth, uncaring attitudes to suffering  etc. etc.

I want to be able to vote for a party with principles and worthy values, not a sly, manipulative set of hoodwinkers. Don't be taken in by their lies.

And you can add this to the list:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-50302173

67General Election - Page 3 Empty Re: General Election on Wed Nov 06 2019, 12:59

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Anyone voting Green?

68General Election - Page 3 Empty Re: General Election on Wed Nov 06 2019, 13:04

Hipster_Nebula

Hipster_Nebula
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@xmiles wrote:He probably wouldn't need to if the rich paid their fair share of tax.

Yes. Now we need to decide what is meant by "rich" and "fair."

Considering the top 1pc already pay nearly 30pc of all tax intake.

Corbyn is the best person to decide no doubt.

69General Election - Page 3 Empty Re: General Election on Wed Nov 06 2019, 13:27

xmiles

xmiles
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
@Hipster_Nebula wrote:
@xmiles wrote:He probably wouldn't need to if the rich paid their fair share of tax.

Yes. Now we need to decide what is meant by "rich" and "fair."

Considering the top 1pc already pay nearly 30pc of all tax intake.

Corbyn is the best person to decide no doubt.

I agree that I have simplified matters and that we do need to define those terms. One disturbing fact is the increasing inequality in this country and the massive increase in the incomes and wealth of the very rich compared to everyone else. There is an interesting short article here: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=11&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiX57WX1tXlAhVVtXEKHdPlA3YQFjAKegQIAhAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fmoney%2F2019%2Fmar%2F09%2Factually-the-rich-pay-lots-of-tax-but-on-income-not-their-wealth&usg=AOvVaw3zaEelMktfPddA1gfCfP6z

70General Election - Page 3 Empty Re: General Election on Wed Nov 06 2019, 14:36

T.R.O.Y


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
Thatchers top rate of tax was 60% between 80 and 89. Another Stalinist.

71General Election - Page 3 Empty Re: General Election on Wed Nov 06 2019, 15:19

wanderlust


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@boltonbonce wrote:Anyone voting Green?
If we had a fairer PR system I'd be happy to vote Green but we are stuck with this parliamentary carve-up we laughingly call democracy.

In 2017 the Greens got 1.8% of the vote but only 0.065 % of the seats - by comparison the Tories got 42% of the vote but 49% of the seats!.

Lib Dems are also discriminated against by the current system - they got 7.4% of the vote but only 1.8% of the seats. Under a "one man one vote" system they should have had 48 seats not 12 - but apparently a Tory's vote is worth more than anyone else's.

It would be a wasted vote in my area anyway.

72General Election - Page 3 Empty Re: General Election on Wed Nov 06 2019, 16:36

okocha

okocha
Andy Walker
Andy Walker
In their election campaign so far the Tories have:

Defended a Tory who deliberately collapsed a rape trial
Defended a Tory who said poor people should be put down
Defended two Tories who blamed Grenfell on the dead victims
Released a doctored "fake news" video of an opposition MP
Buried a report into Russian funding of the Tory party
Etc.

73General Election - Page 3 Empty Re: General Election on Wed Nov 06 2019, 17:06

Cajunboy

Cajunboy
Andy Walker
Andy Walker
@boltonbonce wrote:Anyone voting Green?
I think I may have to do.

I can't defend the rest of the arseholes.

74General Election - Page 3 Empty Re: General Election on Wed Nov 06 2019, 18:42

Angry Dad

Angry Dad
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
@okocha wrote:In their election campaign so far the Tories have:

Defended a Tory who deliberately collapsed a rape trial
Defended a Tory who said poor people should be put down
Defended two Tories who blamed Grenfell on the dead victims
Released a doctored "fake news" video of an opposition MP
Buried a report into Russian funding of the Tory party
Etc.
Any chance of commenting on the shit the labour party get up to or does their shit smell of roses to you.

75General Election - Page 3 Empty Re: General Election on Wed Nov 06 2019, 21:37

T.R.O.Y


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
List it out yourself if you’re that arsed.

76General Election - Page 3 Empty Re: General Election on Wed Nov 06 2019, 22:31

xmiles

xmiles
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
Somehow I don't think he will bother. Laughing

77General Election - Page 3 Empty Re: General Election on Thu Nov 07 2019, 00:47

wanderlust


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Angry Dad wrote:
@okocha wrote:In their election campaign so far the Tories have:

Defended a Tory who deliberately collapsed a rape trial
Defended a Tory who said poor people should be put down
Defended two Tories who blamed Grenfell on the dead victims
Released a doctored "fake news" video of an opposition MP
Buried a report into Russian funding of the Tory party
Etc.
Any chance of commenting on the shit the labour party get up to or does their shit smell of roses to you.
The report they have buried isn't about funding the Tory Party - it's about interfering with British elections most notably manipulating voters in the second EU referendum (Brexit) as it's in Russia's interest for us to split from the EU. Yes folks - Brexit is partly the super rich controlling the Government and part Commie plot. Mugged on both sides.

The last Labour party "scandal" was when Tom Watson backed the investigation into paedophiles after that weird bloke made the false claims - not that Watson knew they were false at the time. Other than that.....nada.

78General Election - Page 3 Empty Re: General Election on Thu Nov 07 2019, 07:48

Hipster_Nebula

Hipster_Nebula
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
The fake news video got far too much attention.

The other stuff is indefensible so I won't even try.

Politicians on twitter deliberately mislead every day. For e.g when that report came out that the Boris deal MIGHT leave us worse off SNP were all over it.

They all tweeted that his deal WILL leave us worse off.

Lies but no 24 hour news coverage about it. Same with the lib dem bar charts. Swinson got away with one 2 minute interview on them and they continue to pump them out. 

It's an election this kind of thing is to be expected but the media should scrutinise equally.

79General Election - Page 3 Empty Re: General Election on Thu Nov 07 2019, 08:26

wanderlust


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Hipster_Nebula wrote:

Politicians on twitter deliberately mislead every day. For e.g when that report came out that the Boris deal MIGHT leave us worse off SNP were all over it.

They all tweeted that his deal WILL leave us worse off.
Didn't see much about leaving Europe MIGHT give the NHS £350 million, MIGHT give 75 million Turks the right to enter the UK etc but ALL sides agree that leaving Europe will leave us worse off at least in the short to medium term. Even Farage and JRM came out with the line that we'd be worse off but qualified it by saying that eventually we'd recover so it would be worth it in the long run.

80General Election - Page 3 Empty Re: General Election on Thu Nov 07 2019, 08:57

Hipster_Nebula

Hipster_Nebula
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
So you agree with me. That's a first.

81General Election - Page 3 Empty Re: General Election on Thu Nov 07 2019, 10:07

gloswhite

gloswhite
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha
This election looks as though its going to be a nasty, and dirty one, that will combine some truth, lots of exaggeration, and even more misleading comments and lies. This is from all parties, however large or small.
It'll be a shame if we all believe, or not, every comment made as it will show that we are being taken in by the bullshit which may include the odd fact. Personally, I only believe what the leavers say ( Wink ). I know its rubbish from all the parties, and recognise that the process of GE is slowly moving on to its own conclusion, irrespective of who says or promises what, like a giant mudslide.
As I said earlier, its on with the bullshit deflectors, and just sit and wait. I try not to get wound up by all of this, but have to admit its like a drug needing me to keep up with it all. 
I see the Green party have declared that they will spend £100bn pounds on whatever. I wonder where that will come from. Liberals have promised £50bn. Labours plans have been costed at anything from £billions to £trillions. And so it goes on. 
Roll on December 13th when we can breathe a sigh of relief, one way or another, and look forward to Christmas.

82General Election - Page 3 Empty Re: General Election on Thu Nov 07 2019, 10:29

wanderlust


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@gloswhite wrote:
I see the Green party have declared that they will spend £100bn pounds on whatever. I wonder where that will come from. Liberals have promised £50bn. Labours plans have been costed at anything from £billions to £trillions. And so it goes on. 
The Green party have specifically said they will cancel Trident to save £110 billion.
The Lib Dems have said they will cancel Brexit and spend the £50 billion that saves (the Remain bonus) on public services etc.
Labour have said they will raise taxes to pay for the spending.
The Tories have said they will increase expenditure whilst cutting taxes and pay for it by further borrowing so that the next generation will have to worry about the interest and repayments on our national debt.

83General Election - Page 3 Empty Re: General Election on Thu Nov 07 2019, 11:35

gloswhite

gloswhite
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha
A national debt that is at its lowest for 17 years, and a tool used by all governments'
I see that the speech being given by John McDonell in Liverpool this morning pledges £250Bn. Apparently, this is on top of earlier promises, and, according to the commentator, the final bill will come to £400 Bn. All paid for by the richest 5% of the country, and the average man in the street doesn't need to worry about a thing.  Laughing Laughing Laughing
Be honest, does anyone really believe this?

84General Election - Page 3 Empty Re: General Election on Thu Nov 07 2019, 13:16

wanderlust


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@gloswhite wrote:A national debt that is at its lowest for 17 years, and a tool used by all governments'
General Election - Page 3 Ukgs_chartDp11t

French national debt under a trillion.
German national debt:
General Election - Page 3 Germany-government-debt-to-gdp



Last edited by wanderlust on Thu Nov 07 2019, 13:22; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Just the facts to spoli a good argument :))

85General Election - Page 3 Empty Re: General Election on Thu Nov 07 2019, 13:20

Norpig

Norpig
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
I read earlier that both main parties see that the historically low interest rates mean that they are both going to borrow much more if they get into power. Trouble is who owns the magic money tree now?

86General Election - Page 3 Empty Re: General Election on Thu Nov 07 2019, 13:22

Hipster_Nebula

Hipster_Nebula
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@gloswhite wrote:A national debt that is at its lowest for 17 years, and a tool used by all governments'
I see that the speech being given by John McDonell in Liverpool this morning pledges £250Bn. Apparently, this is on top of earlier promises, and, according to the commentator, the final bill will come to £400 Bn. All paid for by the richest 5% of the country, and the average man in the street doesn't need to worry about a thing.  Laughing Laughing Laughing
Be honest, does anyone really believe this?

Yes of course! 

If the rich paid their fair share of tax everyone in the world would be rich. 

And then everyone in the UK would be paying the top rate of tax. Thus the economy would be booming.

87General Election - Page 3 Empty Re: General Election on Thu Nov 07 2019, 13:42

wanderlust


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Personally I don't think Labour's spending plans have been costed properly but it's hard to tell as they've kept very quiet about it apart from taxing the super rich.
That said there are a few super rich who could do with a bit of taxing. I was just reading about Crispin Odey - remember him? He's the guy who is in Rupert Murdoch's pocket (former son-in-law) who was sent to Downing Street to tell Boris what to do. Apparently as one of the architects of Brexit, he personally made £220 million by betting against the pound - the very pound he and his cronies devalued. I for one would like to see that back - along with the billions that the other hedge funders and asset managers who instigated Brexit for personal gain made.

What Labour have said is that their £60 billion outlay on the warm homes programme will save £169 billion on reduced energy costs but I don't see how that filters through to the Government. They also said that the tax increase on the top 5% of earners would directly pay for bolstering the NHS and social care including the new "National Care Service" for the over 65s - I'm all for that.
Labour's main costs would be in renationalising the railways and energy companies - but that's difficult to cost given market values. No doubt those services are crap but could they do any better?
All good ideas IMO but are they really do-able?

88General Election - Page 3 Empty Re: General Election on Thu Nov 07 2019, 13:44

gloswhite

gloswhite
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha
@Hipster_Nebula wrote:
@gloswhite wrote:A national debt that is at its lowest for 17 years, and a tool used by all governments'
I see that the speech being given by John McDonell in Liverpool this morning pledges £250Bn. Apparently, this is on top of earlier promises, and, according to the commentator, the final bill will come to £400 Bn. All paid for by the richest 5% of the country, and the average man in the street doesn't need to worry about a thing.  Laughing Laughing Laughing
Be honest, does anyone really believe this?

Yes of course! 

If the rich paid their fair share of tax everyone in the world would be rich. 

And then everyone in the UK would be paying the top rate of tax. Thus the economy would be booming.
I like the logic Very Happy
I'm assuming that the Labour Party will get all the money from the billionaires in the first year or so, because after that, they will all bugger off to another country, and take all their money and investments with them. 
I regard such an approach as having the same foresight as Lemmings.

89General Election - Page 3 Empty Re: General Election on Thu Nov 07 2019, 14:37

Hipster_Nebula

Hipster_Nebula
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Labour always say they will raise the living wage to £10. Good idea but why only 10.

Why don't they make it £300ph and then everyone will be rich.

90General Election - Page 3 Empty Re: General Election on Thu Nov 07 2019, 15:15

wanderlust


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Hipster_Nebula wrote:Labour always say they will raise the living wage to £10. Good idea but why only 10.

Why don't they make it £300ph and then everyone will be rich.
...but a loaf of bread will be £40.

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