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How is the Tory government doing?

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421How is the Tory government doing? - Page 15 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:07 pm

okocha

okocha
Andy Walker
Andy Walker
John Crace in the Guardian today:

 "FDR had spent 40% of US GDP on a whole load of job creation schemes, while Boris was stumping up the princely sum of 0.2% of UK GDP. Or £5bn of old money that had already been promised in the March budget.
As so often with Boris, his whole speech was based on a lie. He was acting as if he was announcing something new when the money had already been accounted for. You can get away with recycling old columns for the Daily Telegraph, but you quickly get found out as prime minister."

422How is the Tory government doing? - Page 15 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:47 pm

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@gloswhite wrote:Regarding the appointment of a politician with no Security experience as a Head of National Security is ludicrous. Knowledge and understanding of the subject is built up over many years. 
I believe this is another maneuver by Cummings to trim or shape the Civil Service, but this time he's got it very wrong, and whats disappointing is that Boris has rubber stamped it. 
No wonder the polls are showing Keir Starmer is more popular than the PM at the moment.

To be fair Frost was a high ranking Civil Servant and probably is able to head that role given the required help and advice from the civil servants who will be working with him in his 'ambassador' role.

He's certainly nobodies fool that's for sure.

Frost joined the Foreign Office in 1987, and shortly after was posted to the British High Commission in Nicosia where he learned Greek and was responsible for covering Greek Cypriot politics and the Cyprus problem. In 1993, he was posted to the UK Representation to the EU in Brussels as First Secretary for Economic and Financial Affairs, where he worked on issues such as the EU Budget, the economic and financial implications of enlargement to Central Europe, and the Euro. He was then posted to the UK Mission to the United Nations in New York, where he covered Human Rights and Social and Economic Affairs.[8]

Frost returned to London to be successively the Private Secretary to the Head of the Diplomatic Service, Sir John (now Lord) Kerr, and Deputy Head of the European Union External Department, covering international trade policy issues and relations with the Balkans and Eastern Europe.[8]

Frost was promoted Economic Counsellor to the British Embassy, Paris in 2001, where he was responsible for reporting and lobbying on all aspects of French economic and commercial life, together with its EU policy. He returned to London to be Head of the EU (Internal) Department and then Director for the European Union in the Foreign Office. In this period he led work on a range of economic and social issues, notably the resistance to the initial Working Time Directive, and the negotiation on the EU's multi-annual Budget framework. He was part of the UK's leadership team during its EU Presidency in 2005.[8]

From May 2006 until October 2008, Frost was the British Ambassador to Denmark and was appointed Companion of the Order of St Michael and St George in the 2006 Birthday Honours. He was then Director for Strategy and Policy Planning in the Foreign Office from October 2008 to October 2010, before being seconded to the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills where he served three years as Director for Europe, Trade, and International Affairs, Britain's most senior trade policy official

Frost left HM Diplomatic Service in 2013 to become CEO of the Scotch Whisky Association, a major trade association.[11] Following the appointment of Boris Johnson as Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, Frost was taken on as HM Foreign Secretary's special adviser in November 2016,[13][14] serving until Johnson left post in July 2018.[8]

In early 2019, Frost became CEO of the London Chamber of Commerce and Industry.[15] He has also served as a public commentator on the European Union, global economic and commercial issues, and multilateral diplomacy, as a member of the Advisory Council of the EU think tank Open Europe,[8] and as an advisor on Brexit to the devolved Scottish Government in Edinburgh.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Frost_(British_diplomat)

I doubt that the person he's taking over from, Sir Mark Sewill had any greater relevant experience to be National Security Advisor than Frost has.

The only difference being Frost is no longer employed as a civil servant and Sir Mark was when he served in that role.

423How is the Tory government doing? - Page 15 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Yesterday at 12:15 am

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Looks like he'll know what to do if we are invaded by Greece, America, France or Scotland then. Promising.

424How is the Tory government doing? - Page 15 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Yesterday at 1:46 am

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@wanderlust wrote:Looks like he'll know what to do if we are invaded by Greece, America, France or Scotland then. Promising.

What are you on about???

..dunno..

Anyone?

425How is the Tory government doing? - Page 15 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Yesterday at 8:36 am

okocha

okocha
Andy Walker
Andy Walker
@Sluffy wrote:

What are you on about???

..dunno..

Anyone?
Theresa May clearly knows Frost's lack of experience and competence.
 Pinning Gove yesterday was the first time I've been impressed by her.

426How is the Tory government doing? - Page 15 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Yesterday at 9:03 am

T.R.O.Y.


Nicolas Anelka
Nicolas Anelka
@okocha wrote:Theresa May clearly knows Frost's lack of experience and competence.
 Pinning Gove yesterday was the first time I've been impressed by her.

Agreed, Frost's complete lack of security experience just goes to show this government are more interested in loyalty to Brexit policy than anything else. Even their fellow MPs can see it, it's worrying and i fear we are going down the route of Trump's America with this government.

427How is the Tory government doing? - Page 15 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Yesterday at 11:44 am

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@okocha wrote:It's all about control: Deliberately put in place a cabinet made up of entirely Brexit-supporting ministers; attempt to control and vilify sections of the press, whilst Boris sways the Telegraph through his regular column; threaten and blacken the name of the BBC; pick and choose who can interview ministers (no Piers or Ch4 or Andrew Neil); attempt to (illegally) prorogue parliament; favour Tory donors; smear the judiciary; pressurise the police; reform the civil service, ousting the top man who happens to be a remainer and replacing him with a man Cummings can manipulate....etc

More like a dictatorship every day ...
Had to chuckle when i read this as it's exactly the kind if thing I would write - and indeed have been writing.
I can only put that down to us both attending the same raving loony left revolutionary Trotskyist educational establishment.

428How is the Tory government doing? - Page 15 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Yesterday at 12:15 pm

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@T.R.O.Y. wrote:
@okocha wrote:Theresa May clearly knows Frost's lack of experience and competence.
 Pinning Gove yesterday was the first time I've been impressed by her.

Agreed, Frost's complete lack of security experience just goes to show this government are more interested in loyalty to Brexit policy than anything else. Even their fellow MPs can see it, it's worrying and i fear we are going down the route of Trump's America with this government.

Can you tell me what if any expertise Frost predecessor Sir Mark Sewill had about National Security being that his whole career was as a civil servant?

I'll save you looking it up - he didn't have any.

He, like Frost, are simply the appointed 'head' of that service and will be fully briefed by the real 'experts'.

As a career public servant myself of thirty years I don't particularly like the way things seem to be going at Whitehall but at the end of the day career public servants simply supply the expertise and knowledge for the elected government of the day to base their decisions on, then enact those decisions.

The facts and expertise given to Sewill and now Frost will still be the same and no doubt the decisions by the government will continue to still be the same also, so I doubt much will change in that respect if you had Sewill, Frost or you or I as National Security Advisor.

I suspect the appointment of Frost is much more to do to with reorganising/restructuring how the various arms of National Security work and cooperate with each other than just a 'reward' for one of Boris 'Brexit' mates.

429How is the Tory government doing? - Page 15 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Yesterday at 12:46 pm

gloswhite

gloswhite
Guðni Bergsson
Guðni Bergsson
Can't agree Sluffy. Having lived in Cyprus for over 8 years, I can assure you he did nothing there, and it can't be too difficult going to the EU negotiations and just saying 'No' (OK, that's a simplification).
If you look at his career, you will see that as a good diplomat he's ascended to the top level, and very much like spinning plates, he's managed to stay in the upper echelon. I doubt its all by what he's achieved, more likely who he knows plays a big part. His career is dedicated to him staying at the top, nothing else.
Regards Sedwill, I watched a report on the box that quite clearly stated his working with, sometimes for, the intelligence community, which he had done so for some years.
I can top your public service career, having put in a total of 45 years. In that time I've been in  situations where I've seen how these people work, and to give this post to someone who is a good diplomat doesn't address the situation fully. He will come in, listen to advisors, make crucial decisions, which will be more of a political bent than previously it would seem, and then will leave to join his merry-go-round of appointments and promotions, just a mere 3 years or so later. Quite possibly putting the intelligence community in a position which may take a while to get back to where it was.

430How is the Tory government doing? - Page 15 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Yesterday at 12:52 pm

T.R.O.Y.


Nicolas Anelka
Nicolas Anelka
@gloswhite wrote:Can't agree Sluffy. Having lived in Cyprus for over 8 years, I can assure you he did nothing there, and it can't be too difficult going to the EU negotiations and just saying 'No' (OK, that's a simplification).
If you look at his career, you will see that as a good diplomat he's ascended to the top level, and very much like spinning plates, he's managed to stay in the upper echelon. I doubt its all by what he's achieved, more likely who he knows plays a big part. His career is dedicated to him staying at the top, nothing else.
Regards Sedwill, I watched a report on the box that quite clearly stated his working with, sometimes for, the intelligence community, which he had done so for some years.
I can top your public service career, having put in a total of 45 years. In that time I've been in  situations where I've seen how these people work, and to give this post to someone who is a good diplomat doesn't address the situation fully. He will come in, listen to advisors, make crucial decisions, which will be more of a political bent than previously it would seem, and then will leave to join his merry-go-round of appointments and promotions, just a mere 3 years or so later. Quite possibly putting the intelligence community in a position which may take a while to get back to where it was.

From what I've read Sedwill's worked with MI5, NATO, served in the Security Coordination Department for the FCO and was director of FCO in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Quite clear experience in security and intelligence to me.

I understand Cummings wants to reform the civil service, but i don't understand what the end goal is to be honest.

431How is the Tory government doing? - Page 15 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Yesterday at 1:12 pm

gloswhite

gloswhite
Guðni Bergsson
Guðni Bergsson
I think he's trying to make it more of a political animal, presumably to support the government. Seems to forget that the Civil Service has always remained impartial, and that is where its strength and character come from.

432How is the Tory government doing? - Page 15 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Yesterday at 1:24 pm

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@gloswhite wrote:Can't agree Sluffy. Having lived in Cyprus for over 8 years, I can assure you he did nothing there, and it can't be too difficult going to the EU negotiations and just saying 'No' (OK, that's a simplification).
If you look at his career, you will see that as a good diplomat he's ascended to the top level, and very much like spinning plates, he's managed to stay in the upper echelon. I doubt its all by what he's achieved, more likely who he knows plays a big part. His career is dedicated to him staying at the top, nothing else.
Regards Sedwill, I watched a report on the box that quite clearly stated his working with, sometimes for, the intelligence community, which he had done so for some years.
I can top your public service career, having put in a total of 45 years. In that time I've been in  situations where I've seen how these people work, and to give this post to someone who is a good diplomat doesn't address the situation fully. He will come in, listen to advisors, make crucial decisions, which will be more of a political bent than previously it would seem, and then will leave to join his merry-go-round of appointments and promotions, just a mere 3 years or so later. Quite possibly putting the intelligence community in a position which may take a while to get back to where it was.

I respect your comments Glos but Sedwill, Frost and myself are career public 'administrators' and I believe you are more a public service 'expert/specialist' in your field.

You are right in the sense that success in any career is due to a number of factors, one of which is usually adaptability and acceptance of change.

I honestly doubt Sedwill is any more an expert/specialist in National Defence than Frost and we have no idea why Frost left the CS in the first place, maybe he could see his path to the top blocked by 'dead men's shoes' and decided to test himself in the private sector instead, never the less I don't doubt the man to be very capable no matter what were the reasons he was appointed for.

Sedwill didn't even last three years in that post but 'heads' tend to come and go but the service still continues much in the same vein whoever is in charge at the time.

My guess is that there is a belief that things will have to change whether we like them to or not, flowing from Brexit and one area that does seem to be effected is National Security in terms of no longer being a part of the EU National Security group and that some information and cooperation will no longer be accessible/shared with us anymore.

That will have ramifications which will need to be addressed internally by the numerous National Security bodies we have and how they work/share information amongst themselves, and how they can fill in the 'gaps' of the areas that will now be 'shut off' from us.

I reckon Frost is more the change agent to bring this about rather than someone who is a dedicated expert/specialist in National Security whose sole job is to keep us safe in our beds as we sleep.

That's my take on it rather than the social media type 'conspiracy' theory about it just being a job as a reward to one of Johnson's mates.



433How is the Tory government doing? - Page 15 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Yesterday at 1:27 pm

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Sluffy wrote:

Can you tell me what if any expertise Frost predecessor Sir Mark Sewill had about National Security being that his whole career was as a civil servant?

I'll save you looking it up - he didn't have any.

He, like Frost, are simply the appointed 'head' of that service and will be fully briefed by the real 'experts'.

As a career public servant myself of thirty years I don't particularly like the way things seem to be going at Whitehall but at the end of the day career public servants simply supply the expertise and knowledge for the elected government of the day to base their decisions on, then enact those decisions.

The facts and expertise given to Sewill and now Frost will still be the same and no doubt the decisions by the government will continue to still be the same also, so I doubt much will change in that respect if you had Sewill, Frost or you or I as National Security Advisor.

I suspect the appointment of Frost is much more to do to with reorganising/restructuring how the various arms of National Security work and cooperate with each other than just a 'reward' for one of Boris 'Brexit' mates.
I get the point you're making but Sedwill had 3 separate and distinct roles: Cabinet Secretary, National Security Adviser and Head of the Civil Service. 
I totally agree that expertise gained in each of those areas and the resources they provide would benefit the others.
But for me the point is not about handouts for Brexiteers even though we've seen many examples of that in Boris's appointments and the awarding of government contracts to supporters.
The Head of Civil Service is traditionally the PM's most senior adviser - which makes sense as whoever is in that role will be supported with all the information gleaned from the entire establishment. Traditionally, that person would have precedence over e.g. Dominic Cummings - and that's why he was forced out and replaced with a yes man - IMHO


As for Sedwill's security experience, he 
* served in the Security Coordination Department in the Gulf War Emergency     Unit until 1991
*represented NATO in Afghanistan working with the American Generals McChrystal and Petraeus
* was a UN weapons inspector
* had placements in Pakistan, Egypt and was Ambassador to Afghanistan
* became FO Deputy Director for the Middle East and North Africa
* was International Director of the UK Border Agency
* was Private Secretary in the run up and preparations for the Gulf War
* is President of the Special Forces Club

Think the guy knows a thing or two about national security.

434How is the Tory government doing? - Page 15 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Yesterday at 1:44 pm

T.R.O.Y.


Nicolas Anelka
Nicolas Anelka
It should be pointed out that it’s no ‘social media conspiracy theory’ that Cummings and Boris want their own people in the civil service. It’s a matter of public record, Cumming has blogged about it extensively in the past.

435How is the Tory government doing? - Page 15 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Yesterday at 1:50 pm

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@T.R.O.Y. wrote:
@gloswhite wrote:Can't agree Sluffy. Having lived in Cyprus for over 8 years, I can assure you he did nothing there, and it can't be too difficult going to the EU negotiations and just saying 'No' (OK, that's a simplification).
If you look at his career, you will see that as a good diplomat he's ascended to the top level, and very much like spinning plates, he's managed to stay in the upper echelon. I doubt its all by what he's achieved, more likely who he knows plays a big part. His career is dedicated to him staying at the top, nothing else.
Regards Sedwill, I watched a report on the box that quite clearly stated his working with, sometimes for, the intelligence community, which he had done so for some years.
I can top your public service career, having put in a total of 45 years. In that time I've been in  situations where I've seen how these people work, and to give this post to someone who is a good diplomat doesn't address the situation fully. He will come in, listen to advisors, make crucial decisions, which will be more of a political bent than previously it would seem, and then will leave to join his merry-go-round of appointments and promotions, just a mere 3 years or so later. Quite possibly putting the intelligence community in a position which may take a while to get back to where it was.

From what I've read Sedwill's worked with MI5, NATO, served in the Security Coordination Department for the FCO and was director of FCO in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Quite clear experience in security and intelligence to me.

I understand Cummings wants to reform the civil service, but i don't understand what the end goal is to be honest.

You might be right but I still believe as a career civil servant (and ending up as the head of it!) he's more likely to be a specialist 'administrator' rather than a specialist 'expert' in the field of intelligence/national defence.

As for the goal, I've tried to put forward what I thinks happening in this respect in my post above and in general I speculate that Cummings et al are looking to bring about a rethink of how things are done (because that's how they have always been done - and served us well up to now - type thinking).

You listened to the blog with Ian Evatt and what he was saying is that the 'mould' in football at our level was to have big hard centre backs, who boot the ball up to a big tall striker whose chance of winning the ball and keeping it is 50:50 and the rest of the team to defend the ball coming back at them.  His thinking is to get players who can play out from the back, invite the opposition to come up the field to try and win it back (thus creating space behind them) and exploit that space to score goals and win games.

Maybe Cunnings thinking is along the same lines, namely the CS needs to be rethought and that the old thinking may no longer is what works in a more 'instantaneous' world we now live in and new ways and thinking are the best and required way forward?

Maybe some of the internal 'empires' /entrenched beliefs that have been built over the years have led to blockages, inefficiencies, infighting, whatever and is preventing the elected government of the day to put it's polices in place as quickly as they wish?

I think that at least is a more reasonable view of what may be happening than the nutjobs who believe all this is being done because Putin/Murdock/whoever are pulling the strings for their own benefit, which they clearly fervently believe.

436How is the Tory government doing? - Page 15 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Yesterday at 1:55 pm

okocha

okocha
Andy Walker
Andy Walker
Frost is appointed as a brexiteer that Cummings and Boris can count on for the advice they want to hear, whereas Sedwill is more of a remainer who had begun to be seen as an obstacle to Cummings' drive to revolutionise the civil service to fit his ideology. 
Whilst they have such a massive majority, this government will take the opportunity to do whatever they like in order to ensure their political will endures.
Mrs. May's informed speech that pierced Gove yesterday spoke volumes as regards the respective capabilities of Frost and Sedwill.

437How is the Tory government doing? - Page 15 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Yesterday at 2:10 pm

T.R.O.Y.


Nicolas Anelka
Nicolas Anelka
@Sluffy wrote:
You might be right 
No, I am right. He does have relevant experience, you claimed he didn't.

@Sluffy wrote:I think that at least is a more reasonable view of what may be happening than the nutjobs who believe all this is being done because Putin/Murdock/whoever are pulling the strings for their own benefit, which they clearly fervently believe.

Not sure who is claiming it's a conspiracy, only place I've heard this is from you (clearly an attempt to mock/discredit anyone who doesn't agree with your viewpoint).

It's a perfectly legitimate question to be asking.

438How is the Tory government doing? - Page 15 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Yesterday at 2:21 pm

gloswhite

gloswhite
Guðni Bergsson
Guðni Bergsson
You might be right but I still believe as a career civil servant (and ending up as the head of it!) he's more likely to be a specialist 'administrator' rather than a specialist 'expert' in the field of intelligence/national defence. 

Thats the point Sluffy, if you want a horse to change direction, you don't start by chopping its head off, and replacing it with a look-alike. 

Cummings has chosen a particularly sensitive, and difficult, area to use as his first plaything in his latest endeavor, unsurprisingly, but there's so much at stake in. this particular field.

439How is the Tory government doing? - Page 15 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Yesterday at 2:29 pm

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Just an aside but I find it somewhat ironic that a Government that was elected on the Brexit - "just get it done" platform has just offered up to 3 million Hong Kong nationals British citizenship.
Can't see that going down well with a section of their supporters.
Moreover, it will piss off the Chinese who we are supposed to be setting up a trade deal with.

440How is the Tory government doing? - Page 15 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Yesterday at 2:30 pm

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@T.R.O.Y. wrote:
@Sluffy wrote:
You might be right 
No, I am right. He does have relevant experience, you claimed he didn't.

@Sluffy wrote:I think that at least is a more reasonable view of what may be happening than the nutjobs who believe all this is being done because Putin/Murdock/whoever are pulling the strings for their own benefit, which they clearly fervently believe.

Not sure who is claiming it's a conspiracy, only place I've heard this is from you (clearly an attempt to mock/discredit anyone who doesn't agree with your viewpoint).

It's a perfectly legitimate question to be asking.

Here we go again.

I accept that Sedwill has worked in that field but I would expect his role to be as an administrator rather than an expert.

I've headed public sector departments but I've certainly not been an expert/specialist of those departments and my role was to see that they worked effectively, efficiently and economically and not to be an expert there.

And have you never read any of Wanderlust's 'work' pre-ban, or never ventured on to Facebook, Twitter and other social media???

441How is the Tory government doing? - Page 15 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Yesterday at 2:47 pm

T.R.O.Y.


Nicolas Anelka
Nicolas Anelka
Looks like someone with plenty of experience in his field, think we can all now agree on that and move on.

Would I prefer someone with experience in the role? Yes. 

So is it a valid question to ask? Again, yes.

442How is the Tory government doing? - Page 15 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Yesterday at 2:48 pm

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Sluffy wrote:
I've headed public sector departments but I've certainly not been an expert/specialist of those departments and my role was to see that they worked effectively, efficiently and economically and not to be an expert there.
The Foreign Office is somewhat different from the local council. Their diplomatic role is also an intelligence gathering role - they have spies and everything. Given that he was liasing directly with the US army generals I suspect it would have been a failure of duty not to know what was going on.
See your general point re helicopter view but the roles are not comparable.

443How is the Tory government doing? - Page 15 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Yesterday at 2:48 pm

gloswhite

gloswhite
Guðni Bergsson
Guðni Bergsson
it won't go down well Wander, but two things, firstly were keeping our promise, and secondly the Chinese are openly bullying other countries that disagree with them, e.g. Australia, and we mustn't just roll over to whatever they want.

444How is the Tory government doing? - Page 15 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Yesterday at 3:28 pm

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@gloswhite wrote:it won't go down well Wander, but two things, firstly were keeping our promise, and secondly the Chinese are openly bullying other countries that disagree with them, e.g. Australia, and we mustn't just roll over to whatever they want.
...as are the Yanks and the Russkis - can't trust any of them but we have to trade with someone to survive. We probably need to get in bed with a massive procurer that can compete with those nutters in this crazy world. Might make sense to sort out a partnership with a procurer geographically closer too, in order to minimise logistical problems......the EU perhaps?

445How is the Tory government doing? - Page 15 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Yesterday at 3:28 pm

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@wanderlust wrote:
@Sluffy wrote:
I've headed public sector departments but I've certainly not been an expert/specialist of those departments and my role was to see that they worked effectively, efficiently and economically and not to be an expert there.
The Foreign Office is somewhat different from the local council. Their diplomatic role is also an intelligence gathering role - they have spies and everything. Given that he was liasing directly with the US army generals I suspect it would have been a failure of duty not to know what was going on.
See your general point re helicopter view but the roles are not comparable.

At the end of the day the 'experts' or 'administrators' (like myself) are reporting to elected 'politicians' who certainly are not experts in the various disciplines but who make their decisions based on their mandate they've been elected on and/or the basis that their manifesto was the one that won them the election and thus their mandate to govern.

This certainly doesn't mean that we have the cleverest or smartest people making the decisions that may well effect everyone, or even that the independent and expertise information given to them - whether by an expert or administrator of that department (both at a local or national level) will be accepted or even acted upon.

That's the system we have.

The politicians who have climbed their way to the top by whatever means they have are quite entitled to administer the country and reform it's institutions in anyway it sees fit until they lose office, usually by an election or in more extreme instances by being overthrown.

Johnson as the legitimate authority and power (both within his party and from the country) to do what he wishes - even if that means doing things in a way that have never been done before such as having a personal advisor having more influence than a Head of the CS and dismantling/restructuring or whatever his plans are for Whitehall and putting a non CS as his National Security Advisor.

You may not like it, I may not like it but that's allowed within the rules of the game that is being played.

Take politics (and religion) away from the world and I think it will be a much better place to live in. Until that happens and of course it never will, we have to all play the game the best we can.

It's as simple as that to me and a failed former PM criticising the appointment isn't going to cut much ice with anyone who can do anything about it much really.

I truly doubt the country as become less secure with Frost in post rather than Sedwill - it's all about internal reform of the CS than anything else.

446How is the Tory government doing? - Page 15 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Yesterday at 3:32 pm

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
I don't think anyone has questioned the legitimacy of the appointment. People have merely alluded to the motivation to do it.

447How is the Tory government doing? - Page 15 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Yesterday at 3:40 pm

T.R.O.Y.


Nicolas Anelka
Nicolas Anelka
@wanderlust wrote:I don't think anyone has questioned the legitimacy of the appointment. People have merely alluded to the motivation to do it.

Exactly.

448How is the Tory government doing? - Page 15 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Yesterday at 4:12 pm

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@T.R.O.Y. wrote:
@wanderlust wrote:I don't think anyone has questioned the legitimacy of the appointment. People have merely alluded to the motivation to do it.

Exactly.

I though we all knew that already???

If we know that and you accept the legitimacy to do so then why worry/fret/complain/throw your toys out the pram/whatever, about it as neither you, I, nor anyone else can do anything about it until the next elections come around.

Fight the battles you can win.

Ian Evatt type thinking!




(Although I think Sun Tzu wrote about it in his book The Art of War a bit before him).

449How is the Tory government doing? - Page 15 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Yesterday at 4:14 pm

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Schopenhauer and Sun Tzu! What's happening on Nuts?

450How is the Tory government doing? - Page 15 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Yesterday at 4:17 pm

T.R.O.Y.


Nicolas Anelka
Nicolas Anelka
@Sluffy wrote:

I though we all knew that already???

If we know that and you accept the legitimacy to do so then why worry/fret/complain/throw your toys out the pram/whatever, about it as neither you, I, nor anyone else can do anything about it until the next elections come around.

Fight the battles you can win.

Ian Evatt type thinking!




(Although I think Sun Tzu wrote about it in his book The Art of War a bit before him).

I have a vote, I can directly effect the next election. Not sure what your point is.

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