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How is the Tory government doing?

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61How is the Tory government doing? - Page 3 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Mon Jan 20 2020, 10:56

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@okocha wrote:XM and Wander, very well expressed....but don't forget The Express, Telegraph and Piers in your list....
Frankly I don't give a monkey's about the media other than in the sense that they are damaging our country peddling damaging untruths in order to make money, get kudos from their owners and consolidate brand loyalty from the converted who lap it up without questioning motives because they want to believe it.
My concerns are purely based on the economics of the whole shenanigans in the knowledge that it is the economics that will start to impact people's lives sooner or later.
It's already impacted on Chris Odey's life after he pocketed £220 million the day after the referendum. Perhaps Murdoch sent him round to meet Boris simply to congratulate him? Smile

62How is the Tory government doing? - Page 3 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Mon Jan 20 2020, 13:02

Guest


Guest
I was telling you to give it a rest on the wanting to see our country fail bile.

Fair enough on the rest of your post, but I’ll judge him by his record. And his and this governments record on policy so far is very poor (in my opinion). See my post on the first page for specifics.

63How is the Tory government doing? - Page 3 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Mon Jan 20 2020, 20:51

gloswhite

gloswhite
Guðni Bergsson
Guðni Bergsson
T.R.O.Y wrote:I was telling you to give it a rest on the wanting to see our country fail bile.

Fair enough on the rest of your post, but I’ll judge him by his record. And his and this governments record on policy so far is very poor (in my opinion). See my post on the first page for specifics.
Bit harsh TROY, that's the first time I've actually put it in those terms.

64How is the Tory government doing? - Page 3 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Mon Jan 20 2020, 21:39

Guest


Guest
It’s quite a common response to negative Brexit press in my experience - so apologies if that came across harsh on you personally.

65How is the Tory government doing? - Page 3 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Tue Jan 21 2020, 01:37

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Well the question is a about a year or two premature - we haven't even left the EU yet and won't for at least another year and that will be the main factor in deciding what/how they've done.
Although blaming remainers for "not wanting it to work" does come across as an early excuse for faiilure in the making but time will tell.

66How is the Tory government doing? - Page 3 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Tue Jan 21 2020, 17:13

gloswhite

gloswhite
Guðni Bergsson
Guðni Bergsson
T.R.O.Y wrote:It’s quite a common response to negative Brexit press in my experience - so apologies if that came across harsh on you personally.
Cheers TROY, I am duly mollified  Very Happy

67How is the Tory government doing? - Page 3 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Tue Jan 21 2020, 17:15

gloswhite

gloswhite
Guðni Bergsson
Guðni Bergsson
@wanderlust wrote:
Although blaming remainers for "not wanting it to work" does come across as an early excuse for faiilure in the making but time will tell.
I don't see this Wander. Without the backing of half the country from the outset, its going to be tougher than it needs to be.

68How is the Tory government doing? - Page 3 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Tue Jan 21 2020, 17:53

xmiles

xmiles
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha
@gloswhite wrote:
@wanderlust wrote:
Although blaming remainers for "not wanting it to work" does come across as an early excuse for faiilure in the making but time will tell.
I don't see this Wander. Without the backing of half the country from the outset, its going to be tougher than it needs to be.

Exactly how is it going to be tougher glos? Just because remainers think it will be a disaster doesn't make it a disaster any more than leavers thinking it will be wonderful won't make it wonderful. This isn't Tinkerbell glos. No matter how hard you remainers believe in it, it won't make it happen. Smile

69How is the Tory government doing? - Page 3 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Tue Jan 21 2020, 22:35

Guest


Guest
A Brexit MEP, not a Tory, but still a complete idiot

How is the Tory government doing? - Page 3 EOv_P-KWkAEduE-?format=jpg&name=medium

70How is the Tory government doing? - Page 3 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Wed Jan 22 2020, 01:44

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
T.R.O.Y wrote:A Brexit MEP, not a Tory, but still a complete idiot

How is the Tory government doing? - Page 3 EOv_P-KWkAEduE-?format=jpg&name=medium
Amazing that someone who was told that leaving the EU would be losing control rather taking it back   ( :facepalm: ) before the referendum has suddenly realised the truth of the matter 3 years down the line. Idiot.

Meanwhile, Borat is defeated 4 times in 24 hours as he tries to shuffle his half-cocked ideas through the Lords.

Plus his proposed social media tax has been parked.
And as for his pitch for votes claiming he will "revitalise the North" it seems his own MPs are scuppering the deal. Not a good day for the puppet.

71How is the Tory government doing? - Page 3 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Wed Jan 22 2020, 12:48

okocha

okocha
Andy Walker
Andy Walker
Copy of a previous post on Next Labour Leader thread that should have been on here instead.

Very funny and astute!

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jan/20/useful-fall-guy-a-preview-of-boris-johnsons-minister-ratings

72How is the Tory government doing? - Page 3 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Wed Jan 22 2020, 20:53

gloswhite

gloswhite
Guðni Bergsson
Guðni Bergsson
@xmiles wrote:
@gloswhite wrote:
@wanderlust wrote:
Although blaming remainers for "not wanting it to work" does come across as an early excuse for faiilure in the making but time will tell.
I don't see this Wander. Without the backing of half the country from the outset, its going to be tougher than it needs to be.

Exactly how is it going to be tougher glos? Just because remainers think it will be a disaster doesn't make it a disaster any more than leavers thinking it will be wonderful won't make it wonderful. This isn't Tinkerbell glos.  Smile
Quite simple really. How can a government negotiate with confidence when there are a large number of its population who will continue to do anything to hamper talks, mainly (because they lost the original argument).
How does Tinkerbell come into this? 
Nothing worse than a grown man calling on a flighty fairy to back him up. Very Happy

73How is the Tory government doing? - Page 3 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Wed Jan 22 2020, 20:54

gloswhite

gloswhite
Guðni Bergsson
Guðni Bergsson
Oh, and it will happen, because its already begun  Laughing

74How is the Tory government doing? - Page 3 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Wed Jan 22 2020, 23:01

xmiles

xmiles
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha
@gloswhite wrote:
@xmiles wrote:
@gloswhite wrote:
@wanderlust wrote:
Although blaming remainers for "not wanting it to work" does come across as an early excuse for faiilure in the making but time will tell.
I don't see this Wander. Without the backing of half the country from the outset, its going to be tougher than it needs to be.

Exactly how is it going to be tougher glos? Just because remainers think it will be a disaster doesn't make it a disaster any more than leavers thinking it will be wonderful won't make it wonderful. This isn't Tinkerbell glos.  Smile
Quite simple really. How can a government negotiate with confidence when there are a large number of its population who will continue to do anything to hamper talks, mainly (because they lost the original argument).
How does Tinkerbell come into this? 
Nothing worse than a grown man calling on a flighty fairy to back him up. Very Happy

How exactly are people "hamper[ing] talks"?

You seem to think that merely believing in something, no matter how preposterous, makes it real. Hence the Tinkerbell reference - which I suspect you were able to work out for yourself glos. Smile

75How is the Tory government doing? - Page 3 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Thu Jan 23 2020, 02:04

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@gloswhite wrote:
@xmiles wrote:
@gloswhite wrote:
@wanderlust wrote:
Although blaming remainers for "not wanting it to work" does come across as an early excuse for faiilure in the making but time will tell.
I don't see this Wander. Without the backing of half the country from the outset, its going to be tougher than it needs to be.

Exactly how is it going to be tougher glos? Just because remainers think it will be a disaster doesn't make it a disaster any more than leavers thinking it will be wonderful won't make it wonderful. This isn't Tinkerbell glos.  Smile
Quite simple really. How can a government negotiate with confidence when there are a large number of its population who will continue to do anything to hamper talks, mainly (because they lost the original argument).
With a remit granted by less than a third of the population any negotiation was never going to have the backing of the country, but we all knew that and as pointed out it above it will have no impact whatsoever on the hardnosed negotiators.
Negotiate with confidence?
Has anyone actually said they have any confidence in the negotiations? Europhiles have always said that taking us out of a situation where we already have strong and proven highly beneficial agreements in place is a incredibly stupid risk.
And I don't even recall the Tories/Leavers ever saying there was any guaranteed outcome so that's hardly a recipe for "confidence" anyway.

If anything is going to undermine the confidence of the negotiators it's the ridiculous position we have put ourselves in i.e. with massively reduced influence and buying power, the stench of desperation that comes from having thrown away a strong hand and the America-first attitude of the very people the remainers have bet the house on.

If anyone had actually bothered to listen to the people we are allegedly going to be negotiating with they would know that they think Britain is in cloud cuckoo land and that we have ABSOLUTELY ZERO CHANCE of getting any sort of deals that are remotely as good as the ones we are pissing away.

THAT will undermine any confidence the British negotiators may have, not what the people think.

As an aside, it seems highly pertinent that today Trump alluded to renegotiating the deal between the US and the EU which he thinks is unfair on the US - as clear an indicator of what we can expect e.g. this - and a measure of what a great deal we had before Britain went mad.

Ironically, any new agreement between the US and the EU is likely to be far better than any deal between the US and the UK as we have so much less to negotiate with than our partners in the EU. Why the hell do you think we voted overwhelmingly to join the EU in the first place if not for massively increased negotiating power in a global economy? Even Thatcher recognised it was our only chance of competing with the super-economies of China and the USA.

As for "losing the original argument" - Britain lost and the corporate foreigners who manipulated the outcome will be the only winners. Plus the British puppets and traitors who facilitated it for personal gain. That includes you Borat.

76How is the Tory government doing? - Page 3 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Thu Jan 23 2020, 12:37

gloswhite

gloswhite
Guðni Bergsson
Guðni Bergsson
@wanderlust wrote:
@gloswhite wrote:
@xmiles wrote:
@gloswhite wrote:
@wanderlust wrote:
Although blaming remainers for "not wanting it to work" does come across as an early excuse for faiilure in the making but time will tell.
I don't see this Wander. Without the backing of half the country from the outset, its going to be tougher than it needs to be.

Exactly how is it going to be tougher glos? Just because remainers think it will be a disaster doesn't make it a disaster any more than leavers thinking it will be wonderful won't make it wonderful. This isn't Tinkerbell glos.  Smile
Quite simple really. How can a government negotiate with confidence when there are a large number of its population who will continue to do anything to hamper talks, mainly (because they lost the original argument).
With a remit granted by less than a third of the population any negotiation was never going to have the backing of the country, but we all knew that and as pointed out it above it will have no impact whatsoever on the hardnosed negotiators.
Negotiate with confidence?
Has anyone actually said they have any confidence in the negotiations? Europhiles have always said that taking us out of a situation where we already have strong and proven highly beneficial agreements in place is a incredibly stupid risk.
And I don't even recall the Tories/Leavers ever saying there was any guaranteed outcome so that's hardly a recipe for "confidence" anyway.

If anything is going to undermine the confidence of the negotiators it's the ridiculous position we have put ourselves in i.e. with massively reduced influence and buying power, the stench of desperation that comes from having thrown away a strong hand and the America-first attitude of the very people the remainers have bet the house on.

If anyone had actually bothered to listen to the people we are allegedly going to be negotiating with they would know that they think Britain is in cloud cuckoo land and that we have ABSOLUTELY ZERO CHANCE of getting any sort of deals that are remotely as good as the ones we are pissing away.

THAT will undermine any confidence the British negotiators may have, not what the people think.

As an aside, it seems highly pertinent that today Trump alluded to renegotiating the deal between the US and the EU which he thinks is unfair on the US - as clear an indicator of what we can expect e.g. this - and a measure of what a great deal we had before Britain went mad.

Ironically, any new agreement between the US and the EU is likely to be far better than any deal between the US and the UK as we have so much less to negotiate with than our partners in the EU. Why the hell do you think we voted overwhelmingly to join the EU in the first place if not for massively increased negotiating power in a global economy? Even Thatcher recognised it was our only chance of competing with the super-economies of China and the USA.

As for "losing the original argument" - Britain lost and the corporate foreigners who manipulated the outcome will be the only winners. Plus the British puppets and traitors who facilitated it for personal gain. That includes you Borat.
With a remit granted by less than a third of the population 
As soon as I saw this I thought, 'Here we go again', and I was right. Only, this time its a full-on rant, with nothing new and very much the same, stale, comments. Also, a ridiculous reference to 'Borat' all the time. Have you not noticed yet Wander, that nobody cares that you have a silly name for Boris ?
I don't see the point in going over the same stuff over and over. We know each others views and none of us are going to change, so I'll continue to read , but I no longer see the point in joining your Boris-bashing fests.

77How is the Tory government doing? - Page 3 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Thu Jan 23 2020, 14:42

xmiles

xmiles
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha
@xmiles wrote:
@gloswhite wrote:
@xmiles wrote:
@gloswhite wrote:
@wanderlust wrote:
Although blaming remainers for "not wanting it to work" does come across as an early excuse for faiilure in the making but time will tell.
I don't see this Wander. Without the backing of half the country from the outset, its going to be tougher than it needs to be.

Exactly how is it going to be tougher glos? Just because remainers think it will be a disaster doesn't make it a disaster any more than leavers thinking it will be wonderful won't make it wonderful. This isn't Tinkerbell glos.  Smile
Quite simple really. How can a government negotiate with confidence when there are a large number of its population who will continue to do anything to hamper talks, mainly (because they lost the original argument).
How does Tinkerbell come into this? 
Nothing worse than a grown man calling on a flighty fairy to back him up. Very Happy

How exactly are people "hamper[ing] talks"?  

You seem to think that merely believing in something, no matter how preposterous, makes it real. Hence the Tinkerbell reference - which I suspect you were able to work out for yourself glos. Smile

glos I see that you are not going to reply to WL but I hope you will reply to me. Mine is a genuine enquiry. I really want to know how you think people are able to hamper talks when they have no direct involvement in the talks.

78How is the Tory government doing? - Page 3 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Thu Jan 23 2020, 16:29

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@gloswhite wrote:
@wanderlust wrote:
@gloswhite wrote:
@xmiles wrote:
@gloswhite wrote:
@wanderlust wrote:
Although blaming remainers for "not wanting it to work" does come across as an early excuse for faiilure in the making but time will tell.
I don't see this Wander. Without the backing of half the country from the outset, its going to be tougher than it needs to be.

Exactly how is it going to be tougher glos? Just because remainers think it will be a disaster doesn't make it a disaster any more than leavers thinking it will be wonderful won't make it wonderful. This isn't Tinkerbell glos.  Smile
Quite simple really. How can a government negotiate with confidence when there are a large number of its population who will continue to do anything to hamper talks, mainly (because they lost the original argument).
With a remit granted by less than a third of the population any negotiation was never going to have the backing of the country, but we all knew that and as pointed out it above it will have no impact whatsoever on the hardnosed negotiators.
Negotiate with confidence?
Has anyone actually said they have any confidence in the negotiations? Europhiles have always said that taking us out of a situation where we already have strong and proven highly beneficial agreements in place is a incredibly stupid risk.
And I don't even recall the Tories/Leavers ever saying there was any guaranteed outcome so that's hardly a recipe for "confidence" anyway.

If anything is going to undermine the confidence of the negotiators it's the ridiculous position we have put ourselves in i.e. with massively reduced influence and buying power, the stench of desperation that comes from having thrown away a strong hand and the America-first attitude of the very people the remainers have bet the house on.

If anyone had actually bothered to listen to the people we are allegedly going to be negotiating with they would know that they think Britain is in cloud cuckoo land and that we have ABSOLUTELY ZERO CHANCE of getting any sort of deals that are remotely as good as the ones we are pissing away.

THAT will undermine any confidence the British negotiators may have, not what the people think.

As an aside, it seems highly pertinent that today Trump alluded to renegotiating the deal between the US and the EU which he thinks is unfair on the US - as clear an indicator of what we can expect e.g. this - and a measure of what a great deal we had before Britain went mad.

Ironically, any new agreement between the US and the EU is likely to be far better than any deal between the US and the UK as we have so much less to negotiate with than our partners in the EU. Why the hell do you think we voted overwhelmingly to join the EU in the first place if not for massively increased negotiating power in a global economy? Even Thatcher recognised it was our only chance of competing with the super-economies of China and the USA.

As for "losing the original argument" - Britain lost and the corporate foreigners who manipulated the outcome will be the only winners. Plus the British puppets and traitors who facilitated it for personal gain. That includes you Borat.
With a remit granted by less than a third of the population 
As soon as I saw this I thought, 'Here we go again', and I was right. Only, this time its a full-on rant, with nothing new and very much the same, stale, comments. Also, a ridiculous reference to 'Borat' all the time. Have you not noticed yet Wander, that nobody cares that you have a silly name for Boris ?
I don't see the point in going over the same stuff over and over. We know each others views and none of us are going to change, so I'll continue to read , but I no longer see the point in joining your Boris-bashing fests.
I thought I made some very pertinent points about our negotiating position - if you can call it that - and the key factors that will determine the level of "confidence" the negotiators are likely to have.

79How is the Tory government doing? - Page 3 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Fri Jan 24 2020, 01:30

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Another U turn in Tory pre-election promises as Javid "clarifies" his statement on alignment with EU rules.

In the space of 6 days he's gone from "Britain will be free from EU rules in the future" to "Britain will only diverge from EU rules where it is in the interest of British business" - after being told by British businesses that EU rules are needed in order to secure supply chains.
(It will be interesting to see where the Tory Government thinks it knows more about the "interests of British businesses" than British businesses know themselves)
That surely can't go down well with the Brexiteers who banged on about "freeing us from EU regulations" as a result of Murdoch and Cummings media campaigns?

With the Tories now starting to be faced with the reality of what they were promising in order to retain power, it looks increasingly like we'll still be in the EU in all but name.

80How is the Tory government doing? - Page 3 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Fri Jan 24 2020, 09:02

okocha

okocha
Andy Walker
Andy Walker
And it is now becoming even clearer how much the government bungled HS2 from the very start, at eye-watering expense to the tax-payer. Clear disarray over how to proceed from here. 

Also increasingly clear how foolish it has been for Johnson to rely on Trump's USA for deals or support. See Harry Dunn case and threats of tariffs on British motors.

We need to be taking Trump to task for his denial of climate change and his position on Israel and the Middle East but we won't whilst we still cling to the vain hope that we can do deals with the unprincipled lout who claims impeachment is a hoax and a witch-hunt.

We are now hoping that the EU will treat us kindly. Better get begging, Boris!

81How is the Tory government doing? - Page 3 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Fri Jan 24 2020, 11:20

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@okocha wrote:And it is now becoming even clearer how much the government bungled HS2 from the very start, at eye-watering expense to the tax-payer. Clear disarray over how to proceed from here. 

Also increasingly clear how foolish it has been for Johnson to rely on Trump's USA for deals or support. See Harry Dunn case and threats of tariffs on British motors.

We need to be taking Trump to task for his denial of climate change and his position on Israel and the Middle East but we won't whilst we still cling to the vain hope that we can do deals with the unprincipled lout who claims impeachment is a hoax and a witch-hunt.

We are now hoping that the EU will treat us kindly. Better get begging, Boris!

You need to find a hobby Okocha, something that will calm you and take your mind off Boris & co.

82How is the Tory government doing? - Page 3 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Sun Jan 26 2020, 17:02

sunlight

sunlight
Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
Jacob Rees-Mogg. His company made £103 million profit over the past five years yet paid no corporation tax, as the parent company is based in the Cayman Islands, even though they operate in Great Britain.
No contribution to Hospitals, Schools. Roads, Welfare, Police, Defence etc.
This is why he wants out of the EU before they introduce legislation that would require him to pay tax on this money.
Were you really naive enough to think Brexit, led by some of the richest Tories in the land was for the benefit of Britain?
His family also scrounged a £6.7 million grant to refurbish their 300-bed ancestral home while he voted for the bedroom tax that causes financial hardship for the poor.

83How is the Tory government doing? - Page 3 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Mon Jan 27 2020, 01:46

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Bit of a blow today as India has also gone protectionist and is introducing import tax on a range of goods. Not sure to what extent it affects machinery, plastics and minerals which are our main exports to India but it seems that the wave of nationalism and protectionism is spreading and will impact on trade deals big time.

84How is the Tory government doing? - Page 3 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Mon Jan 27 2020, 02:00

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@sunlight wrote:Jacob Rees-Mogg. His company made £103 million profit over the past five years yet paid no corporation tax, as the parent company is based in the Cayman Islands, even though they operate in Great Britain.
No contribution to Hospitals, Schools. Roads, Welfare, Police, Defence etc.
This is why he wants out of the EU before they introduce legislation that would require him to pay tax on this money.
Were you really naive enough to think Brexit, led by some of the richest Tories in the land was for the benefit of Britain?
His family also scrounged a £6.7 million grant to refurbish their 300-bed ancestral home while he voted for the bedroom tax that causes financial hardship for the poor.
La la la la la....nobody wants to hear it I'm afraid because nobody likes to admit when they've been conned. Boris's personal adviser, who also happens to be Rupert Murdoch's gopher and former son-in-law made £220 million in a single day - the day after the referendum. The real architects of Brexit like this bastard are immune to the consequences and stand to make a considerable profit at the expense of the British people.

We'll see how folk feel when prices rise, jobs are lost and services sold off and cut followed by social unrest and nobody ever admitting they voted for it in the first place. I reckon two years.

85How is the Tory government doing? - Page 3 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Mon Jan 27 2020, 02:24

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Here's an interesting perspective on Boris and the UK hedge funds:

What to do if you are a hedge fund manager down to your last billion? Answer: rig global politics in your favour. If that sounds improbable, remember we are talking about folk capable of shorting the entire Japanese economy in response to a natural disaster. Hedge fund managers are megalomaniacs. It goes with the territory.
*
Hedge fund managers hate conservative central banks and quantitative easing.  Instead, they thrive on market chaos and gyrating asset values they can bet against.  Hence the explicit support of US hedge fund managers for Trump and disruptive Trumpian economics.  For instance, a key funder of both Trump and Steven Bannon’s Breitbart News is Robert Mercer, sometime co-CEO of Renaissance Technologies, a $60 billion computer-powered hedge fund.  Mercer was also a major investor in Cambridge Analytica, the company at the heart of the scandal over misuse of user data collected from Facebook.
Next, hedge fund managers have a particular hatred of the EU because of its drive to put US and UK funds under greater regulation – hedge funds are relatively small in the eurozone countries.  The EU’s new Alternative Investment Fund Managers Directive has severely limited hedge fund operations while letting the banks off relatively scot free.  As a result, continental European banks have been able to nab clients (and their money) away from US and UK hedge funds. For this development, the hedge funds blame (rightly) the influence of the big German and French banks on member state governments, the European Central Bank and (above all) the European Commission.
*
A major proponent of this line is Sir Paul Marshall, the pro-Brexit co-founder of Marshall Wace, one of Europe’s leading hedge funds.  Marshall argues that in France the ruling “énarques” (graduates of the elite Ecole Nationale d’Administration) are stuck in a revolving door between jobs in the big banks and jobs in government or the EU. According to Marshall, the result is that énarques like President Macron protect the interests of the big European banks.  Marshall, by the way, was a prominent Lib Dem, but he donated £100,000 to the Leave campaign.  Recently he made a bob or two out of shorting Carillion shares, helping put the company out of business.
The antipathy of UK hedge funds to EU regulation means it is no surprise that prominent fund managers such as Crispin Odey and Michael Hintze support a hard Brexit and fund Boris.  Brexit is not a cry for help from the English underclass.  It is a carefully stage-managed campaign by global finance capital in the form of the hedge funds.  It is being orchestrated out of hedge fund self-interest and the greed of billionaires.  Boris Johnson is their front man.

(article written before Boris was put into Downing St)

Check out the many articles on how hedge funds are currently on a campaign to short British High St chains e.g. Debenhams and methodically putting them out of business.

86How is the Tory government doing? - Page 3 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Mon Jan 27 2020, 09:45

gloswhite

gloswhite
Guðni Bergsson
Guðni Bergsson
@wanderlust wrote:
@gloswhite wrote:
@wanderlust wrote:
@gloswhite wrote:
@xmiles wrote:
@gloswhite wrote:
@wanderlust wrote:
Although blaming remainers for "not wanting it to work" does come across as an early excuse for faiilure in the making but time will tell.
I don't see this Wander. Without the backing of half the country from the outset, its going to be tougher than it needs to be.

Exactly how is it going to be tougher glos? Just because remainers think it will be a disaster doesn't make it a disaster any more than leavers thinking it will be wonderful won't make it wonderful. This isn't Tinkerbell glos.  Smile
Quite simple really. How can a government negotiate with confidence when there are a large number of its population who will continue to do anything to hamper talks, mainly (because they lost the original argument).
With a remit granted by less than a third of the population any negotiation was never going to have the backing of the country, but we all knew that and as pointed out it above it will have no impact whatsoever on the hardnosed negotiators.
Negotiate with confidence?
Has anyone actually said they have any confidence in the negotiations? Europhiles have always said that taking us out of a situation where we already have strong and proven highly beneficial agreements in place is a incredibly stupid risk.
And I don't even recall the Tories/Leavers ever saying there was any guaranteed outcome so that's hardly a recipe for "confidence" anyway.

If anything is going to undermine the confidence of the negotiators it's the ridiculous position we have put ourselves in i.e. with massively reduced influence and buying power, the stench of desperation that comes from having thrown away a strong hand and the America-first attitude of the very people the remainers have bet the house on.

If anyone had actually bothered to listen to the people we are allegedly going to be negotiating with they would know that they think Britain is in cloud cuckoo land and that we have ABSOLUTELY ZERO CHANCE of getting any sort of deals that are remotely as good as the ones we are pissing away.

THAT will undermine any confidence the British negotiators may have, not what the people think.

As an aside, it seems highly pertinent that today Trump alluded to renegotiating the deal between the US and the EU which he thinks is unfair on the US - as clear an indicator of what we can expect e.g. this - and a measure of what a great deal we had before Britain went mad.

Ironically, any new agreement between the US and the EU is likely to be far better than any deal between the US and the UK as we have so much less to negotiate with than our partners in the EU. Why the hell do you think we voted overwhelmingly to join the EU in the first place if not for massively increased negotiating power in a global economy? Even Thatcher recognised it was our only chance of competing with the super-economies of China and the USA.

As for "losing the original argument" - Britain lost and the corporate foreigners who manipulated the outcome will be the only winners. Plus the British puppets and traitors who facilitated it for personal gain. That includes you Borat.
With a remit granted by less than a third of the population 
As soon as I saw this I thought, 'Here we go again', and I was right. Only, this time its a full-on rant, with nothing new and very much the same, stale, comments. Also, a ridiculous reference to 'Borat' all the time. Have you not noticed yet Wander, that nobody cares that you have a silly name for Boris ?
I don't see the point in going over the same stuff over and over. We know each others views and none of us are going to change, so I'll continue to read , but I no longer see the point in joining your Boris-bashing fests.
I thought I made some very pertinent points about our negotiating position - if you can call it that - and the key factors that will determine the level of "confidence" the negotiators are likely to have.
To be fair, you did. I had an off day, where all this negativity was just getting me down.

87How is the Tory government doing? - Page 3 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Mon Jan 27 2020, 10:00

gloswhite

gloswhite
Guðni Bergsson
Guðni Bergsson
@xmiles wrote:
@xmiles wrote:
@gloswhite wrote:
@xmiles wrote:
@gloswhite wrote:
@wanderlust wrote:
Although blaming remainers for "not wanting it to work" does come across as an early excuse for faiilure in the making but time will tell.
I don't see this Wander. Without the backing of half the country from the outset, its going to be tougher than it needs to be.

Exactly how is it going to be tougher glos? Just because remainers think it will be a disaster doesn't make it a disaster any more than leavers thinking it will be wonderful won't make it wonderful. This isn't Tinkerbell glos.  Smile
Quite simple really. How can a government negotiate with confidence when there are a large number of its population who will continue to do anything to hamper talks, mainly (because they lost the original argument).
How does Tinkerbell come into this? 
Nothing worse than a grown man calling on a flighty fairy to back him up. Very Happy

How exactly are people "hamper[ing] talks"?  

You seem to think that merely believing in something, no matter how preposterous, makes it real. Hence the Tinkerbell reference - which I suspect you were able to work out for yourself glos. Smile

glos I see that you are not going to reply to WL but I hope you will reply to me. Mine is a genuine enquiry. I really want to know how you think people are able to hamper talks when they have no direct involvement in the talks.
If you look back to the negotiations, and how the EU refused to budge, you will see that they were able to pile on pressure because they were aware of how much of the UK public were against any change, (also advised by that duplicitous scrote, Blair). They know many of those people are still prepared to demonstrate, protest, and will try to influence the upcoming trade negotiations. (Such as the proposed US trade deal). 
I'm not talking just about the public but also the companies who will want to influence things in their favour. There is a very short window for the settlement of any trade deal, and I believe that many companies will still try to be disruptive in their efforts to get what they believe is a good deal for them. This is fair enough, but I think some of this will be driven by the rancour of the previous situations, and such a division will force any team to negotiate with a weakened hand.

88How is the Tory government doing? - Page 3 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Mon Jan 27 2020, 11:51

xmiles

xmiles
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha
I don't agree with your logic on this glos but thanks for the reply.

Where I do agree with you is that the rancour has not gone away. Hardly surprising when the wishes of the 48% of people who voted are completely ignored and the brexit being delivered is nothing like the brexit promised during the referendum campaign.

89How is the Tory government doing? - Page 3 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Mon Jan 27 2020, 11:59

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@gloswhite wrote:If you look back to the negotiations, and how the EU refused to budge, you will see that they were able to pile on pressure because they were aware of how much of the UK public were against any change, (also advised by that duplicitous scrote, Blair). They know many of those people are still prepared to demonstrate, protest, and will try to influence the upcoming trade negotiations. (Such as the proposed US trade deal). 
I'm not talking just about the public but also the companies who will want to influence things in their favour. There is a very short window for the settlement of any trade deal, and I believe that many companies will still try to be disruptive in their efforts to get what they believe is a good deal for them. This is fair enough, but I think some of this will be driven by the rancour of the previous situations, and such a division will force any team to negotiate with a weakened hand.
I think you've hit on the crux of the problem Glos, albeit with a different interpretation of the scenario than the one I and others would consider accurate.
Absolutely nothing was promised to the electorate by the Leave campaign.
What they actually said was they'd scrap existing trade deals and arrangements - that much they could guarantee.
As for replacing those deals, they promised ZERO.
It may have been ASSUMED by people who voted leave that the UK would be able to get favourable or indeed better trade deals, but that assumption is based on a gross overestimation of Britain's current economic strength and bargaining power.
We have enjoyed economic strength and bargaining power internationally as part of the EU, but to coin an analogy, when the baby wildebeeste are separated from their herd they are easing pickings for the predators.
In this scenario, the EU has to protect itself (and thereby becomes a predator itself) and once we decided to cut ourselves off, they were always going to negotiate hard for the interest of their own members - regardless of what the British electorate may or may not have been perceived to have been thinking.
Varadkar made it fairly clear just today.

Just to look at it from their perspective for once, it could equally be argued that it was the UK negotiators who "refused to budge" - perhaps because they had made promises they weren't able to keep.

90How is the Tory government doing? - Page 3 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? on Mon Jan 27 2020, 12:58

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@xmiles wrote:Where I do agree with you is that the rancour has not gone away. Hardly surprising when the wishes of the 48% of people who voted are completely ignored and the brexit being delivered is nothing like the brexit promised during the referendum campaign.

For your own sanity please let it go.

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