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Bolton Nuts » BWFC » Wandering Minds » Brexit Watch

Brexit Watch

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Ten Bobsworth
Hipster_Nebula
gloswhite
okocha
Cajunboy
Natasha Whittam
Angry Dad
Norpig
Sluffy
sunlight
karlypants
boltonbonce
wanderlust
xmiles
18 posters

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241Brexit Watch - Page 9 Empty Re: Brexit Watch Thu Oct 07 2021, 12:14

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Of today's looming Brexit crises (international payments not being processed, Intel discounting Britain as the site for their new megaplant etc) surprisingly it's the fishing row that carries the immediate threat to consumers as Macron has suggested that if Boris doesn't start playing nicely re fishing permits he may stop exporting energy to the UK as we are a net importer.

242Brexit Watch - Page 9 Empty Re: Brexit Watch Thu Oct 07 2021, 13:10

Whitesince63


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
The problem is, thanks to joining the EU and especially with Blair allowing in hordes of Eastern European’s to keep wages low, we’ve now achieved exactly what he wanted. We are a low wage society whilst the likes of Poland Rumania and Lithuania have improved their economy making it unnecessary for these people to now come here. Sadly the damage is done so it’s no surprise that after returning back home HGV drivers, Care Workers, Fruit pickers, tradesmen et al don’t want to return to the UK.

Good I say because we now need to stop relying on these people and start accepting that we need to raise standards, wages and infrastructure to encourage our own people to do these jobs, as they did perfectly well before we ever joined the stinking EU in the 50’s.

Of course things will be tough. Much labour has returned home and the EU, totally as expected, are applying every tactic they can to punish the UK for daring to leave their club. Many of the things we import from them we can produce here or purchase elsewhere but it will take time to build supply chains. Hopefully the reliance on our near neighbours will increasingly reduce and as they gradually deteriorate with their expensive and bureaucratic over regulations, we can prosper from the new economies we will deal with.

243Brexit Watch - Page 9 Empty Re: Brexit Watch Thu Oct 07 2021, 23:15

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Whitesince63 wrote:The problem is, thanks to joining the EU and especially with Blair allowing in hordes of Eastern European’s to keep wages low, we’ve now achieved exactly what he wanted. We are a low wage society whilst the likes of Poland Rumania and Lithuania have improved their economy making it unnecessary for these people to now come here. Sadly the damage is done so it’s no surprise that after returning back home HGV drivers, Care Workers, Fruit pickers, tradesmen et al don’t want to return to the UK.

Good I say because we now need to stop relying on these people and start accepting that we need to raise standards, wages and infrastructure to encourage our own people to do these jobs, as they did perfectly well before we ever joined the stinking EU in the 50’s.

Of course things will be tough. Much labour has returned home and the EU, totally as expected, are applying every tactic they can to punish the UK for daring to leave their club. Many of the things we import from them we can produce here or purchase elsewhere but it will take time to build supply chains. Hopefully the reliance on our near neighbours will increasingly reduce and as they gradually deteriorate with their expensive and bureaucratic over regulations, we can prosper from the new economies we will deal with.
Good points well made. Most of them won't come back simply because we now insist on a passport and none of them have one - because they've never needed one to travel and work throughout Europe.

Question is will the idle British be forced into doing jobs that most think are beneath them?

One point though: It was the British people that voted to join the EU - by a massive majority - because of the god awful mess our independent country was in. Europe saved us.
It's a bit disingenuous to blame Blair given that pro European Tories like Heath and Thatcher sucked it up - until it was politically expedient to do a U turn.

Anyhoo, if EU membership is responsible for low wages in Britain, why are wages so high in Europe?

244Brexit Watch - Page 9 Empty Re: Brexit Watch Tue Oct 12 2021, 20:03

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

245Brexit Watch - Page 9 Empty Re: Brexit Watch Wed Oct 13 2021, 13:48

okocha

okocha
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-58898117

 It is claimed that our country can't be trusted on trade deals. Quelle surprise!

246Brexit Watch - Page 9 Empty Re: Brexit Watch Wed Oct 13 2021, 13:58

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Politician can't be trusted shocker!

I've never heard anyone say that before.

:facepalm:

247Brexit Watch - Page 9 Empty Re: Brexit Watch Thu Oct 14 2021, 01:09

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Natasha Whittam wrote:Politician can't be trusted shocker!

I've never heard anyone say that before.

:facepalm:
Pretty sure I haven't heard a representative of a foreign government say in public specifically that the British government can't be trusted to uphold a deal they've signed up to before.

Anyhow as more energy companies crash, is it becoming more likely that the Tories will adopt a program of re-nationalising core services i.e. survive by adopting a traditional socialist policy? Did it with a railway company the other week so it could be on the cards.

248Brexit Watch - Page 9 Empty Re: Brexit Watch Thu Oct 14 2021, 17:27

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
This is getting serious.

"A Harry Potter wand used to be £20, now it's going to be £35-£40. All of the shops are running out of stock."

249Brexit Watch - Page 9 Empty Re: Brexit Watch Fri Oct 15 2021, 01:01

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Brexit Watch - Page 9 R.7529d713c7f8bd6fb4f6139b1cf9dcee?rik=ivlKfYOhXZz4NA&riu=http%3a%2f%2fwww.trueactivist.com%2fwp-content%2fuploads%2f2015%2f10%2fdailyexpressspoof1

Thank goodness for Brexit.

250Brexit Watch - Page 9 Empty Re: Brexit Watch Sun Oct 17 2021, 12:41

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Business insolvencies have hit new high in the last 6 months.

According to the Bank of England, higher borrowing is to blame for putting more businesses at risk.
It said: “The increase in debt – though moderate in aggregate – has likely led to increases in the number and scale of more vulnerable businesses.
As the economy recovers and government support, including restrictions on winding up orders, falls away, business insolvencies are expected to increase from historically low levels.”
Last month, it emerged that Brexit-related trade barriers have risen to £2.2 billion in UK businesses costs in the first half of this year.
An additional £600 million in costs hit British importers since January according to HMRC data. The cause has been identified as Brexit, because the taxes were not required for EU imports when the Britain was in the single market."

Meanwhile, Frost  - from his holiday location in Spain - has demanded that the EU completely rewrite the NI protocol agreement.

Despite Johnson lauding the deal he signed up to as "a great deal for Britain" it would seem that the government are now seeking confrontation with the EU in order to provide a scapegoat for their own failings.

251Brexit Watch - Page 9 Empty Re: Brexit Watch Mon Oct 18 2021, 12:35

Whitesince63


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
@wanderlust wrote:Business insolvencies have hit new high in the last 6 months.

According to the Bank of England, higher borrowing is to blame for putting more businesses at risk.
It said: “The increase in debt – though moderate in aggregate – has likely led to increases in the number and scale of more vulnerable businesses.
As the economy recovers and government support, including restrictions on winding up orders, falls away, business insolvencies are expected to increase from historically low levels.”
Last month, it emerged that Brexit-related trade barriers have risen to £2.2 billion in UK businesses costs in the first half of this year.
An additional £600 million in costs hit British importers since January according to HMRC data. The cause has been identified as Brexit, because the taxes were not required for EU imports when the Britain was in the single market."

Meanwhile, Frost  - from his holiday location in Spain - has demanded that the EU completely rewrite the NI protocol agreement.

Despite Johnson lauding the deal he signed up to as "a great deal for Britain" it would seem that the government are now seeking confrontation with the EU in order to provide a scapegoat for their own failings.

As usual wander, like most remain voters you only pick out the bits that show Brexit negatively. You could easily have mentioned that inward investment into the UK is at its highest ever level, the AUCUS deal or the new trade deals that we’ve done outside the EU, or the projections that the City of London would be trashed by moves by business to the EU were completely unfounded as more European companies open offices within the square mile.

Everybody can accept and indeed expected business with Europe to decline early on as businesses adapt to new regulations and the obvious punishment tactics from the EU came into effect. Boris did sign the agreement which again everybody at the time new was a bad deal but it was essential Brexit was completed ASAP. That said, there was within the agreement scope to discuss problem areas and amend them and in fact every contract or agreement has that facility. Like it or not we have left the EU and it does no good keep looking for negative factors whilst ignoring the huge possibilities our new freedoms present us with. Unless we all accept where we are and try to make the best of it we won’t get anywhere. 😉

252Brexit Watch - Page 9 Empty Re: Brexit Watch Mon Oct 18 2021, 15:00

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Whitesince63 wrote:As usual wander, like most remain voters you only pick out the bits that show Brexit negatively. You could easily have mentioned that inward investment into the UK is at its highest ever level, the AUCUS deal or the new trade deals that we’ve done outside the EU, or the projections that the City of London would be trashed by moves by business to the EU were completely unfounded as more European companies open offices within the square mile.

Everybody can accept and indeed expected business with Europe to decline early on as businesses adapt to new regulations and the obvious punishment tactics from the EU came into effect. Boris did sign the agreement which again everybody at the time new was a bad deal but it was essential Brexit was completed ASAP. That said, there was within the agreement scope to discuss problem areas and amend them and in fact every contract or agreement has that facility. Like it or not we have left the EU and it does no good keep looking for negative factors whilst ignoring the huge possibilities our new freedoms present us with. Unless we all accept where we are and try to make the best of it we won’t get anywhere. 😉

:clap:

Top post. Brexit is far from perfect but the long term benefits will massively outweigh the short term negatives. Huge change always brings challenges.

253Brexit Watch - Page 9 Empty Re: Brexit Watch Mon Oct 18 2021, 16:14

T.R.O.Y.


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
@Whitesince63 wrote:As usual wander, like most remain voters you only pick out the bits that show Brexit negatively. You could easily have mentioned that inward investment into the UK is at its highest ever level, the AUCUS deal or the new trade deals that we’ve done outside the EU, or the projections that the City of London would be trashed by moves by business to the EU were completely unfounded as more European companies open offices within the square mile.

Everybody can accept and indeed expected business with Europe to decline early on as businesses adapt to new regulations and the obvious punishment tactics from the EU came into effect. Boris did sign the agreement which again everybody at the time new was a bad deal but it was essential Brexit was completed ASAP. That said, there was within the agreement scope to discuss problem areas and amend them and in fact every contract or agreement has that facility. Like it or not we have left the EU and it does no good keep looking for negative factors whilst ignoring the huge possibilities our new freedoms present us with. Unless we all accept where we are and try to make the best of it we won’t get anywhere. 😉

Rubbish post.

1. Why are you championing AUKUS?
2. Why are you presenting the impact on City of London as a positive?
"440 firms in the banking and finance industry in the UK that have responded to Brexit by relocating part of their business, moving some staff, or setting up new entities in the EU. Banks have moved or are moving more than £900bn in assets from the UK to the EU, and insurance firms and asset managers have transferred more than £100bn in assets and funds."
3. Which trade deals? Have they filled the gap of the EU or have the potential too? No.
4. Everyone knew it was a bad deal, do you really need me to post evidence of pundits and Tories alike praising it as a brilliant deal? Give over.

We are stuck with Brexit for now, but don't sit there pretending it's been anything but a disaster. Delusions of Brexiteers like you are what took us to a hard Brexit and what are keeping us in the shit.

We could have left the EU without doing this, none of this was necessary. I blame the politicians for lying to you in the first place, but now you have the evidence stop deluding yourself.

254Brexit Watch - Page 9 Empty Re: Brexit Watch Mon Oct 18 2021, 16:18

Norpig

Norpig
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Genuine question and not try to wind up people, but was Brexit worth it if it causes Northern Ireland to go back to the bad old days? Its in the news regularly that the Unionists are far from happy with the sea border and all the extra checks its caused.

Shouldn't the Good Friday agreement have been taken into more consideration when Brexit was being voted on?



Last edited by Norpig on Mon Oct 18 2021, 16:24; edited 1 time in total

255Brexit Watch - Page 9 Empty Re: Brexit Watch Mon Oct 18 2021, 16:23

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Put simply.

Brexit Watch - Page 9 Cutting_the_branch_300_wht

256Brexit Watch - Page 9 Empty Re: Brexit Watch Mon Oct 18 2021, 16:35

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@T.R.O.Y. wrote:
We are stuck with Brexit for now, but don't sit there pretending it's been anything but a disaster. Delusions of Brexiteers like you are what took us to a hard Brexit and what are keeping us in the shit.

We could have left the EU without doing this, none of this was necessary. I blame the politicians for lying to you in the first place, but now you have the evidence stop deluding yourself.

Brexit Watch - Page 9 Bolton-s-disallowed-goal-against-everton-in-1997-988737850

257Brexit Watch - Page 9 Empty Re: Brexit Watch Mon Oct 18 2021, 16:39

T.R.O.Y.


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
You just rated the worst ever post on here as 'top', your credit round here has slipped.

258Brexit Watch - Page 9 Empty Re: Brexit Watch Mon Oct 18 2021, 16:46

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@T.R.O.Y. wrote:You just rated the worst ever post on here as 'top', your credit round here has slipped.

It was a top post because it was a bit of positivity.

This is a football forum, do I really need to read the same post rehashed day after day after day?

You don't like or agree with Brexit. I get it. No need to labour the point.

259Brexit Watch - Page 9 Empty Re: Brexit Watch Mon Oct 18 2021, 16:54

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

260Brexit Watch - Page 9 Empty Re: Brexit Watch Mon Oct 18 2021, 17:14

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Whitesince63 wrote:

As usual wander, like most remain voters you only pick out the bits that show Brexit negatively. You could easily have mentioned that inward investment into the UK is at its highest ever level, the AUCUS deal or the new trade deals that we’ve done outside the EU, or the projections that the City of London would be trashed by moves by business to the EU were completely unfounded as more European companies open offices within the square mile.

Everybody can accept and indeed expected business with Europe to decline early on as businesses adapt to new regulations and the obvious punishment tactics from the EU came into effect. Boris did sign the agreement which again everybody at the time new was a bad deal but it was essential Brexit was completed ASAP. That said, there was within the agreement scope to discuss problem areas and amend them and in fact every contract or agreement has that facility. Like it or not we have left the EU and it does no good keep looking for negative factors whilst ignoring the huge possibilities our new freedoms present us with. Unless we all accept where we are and try to make the best of it we won’t get anywhere. 😉
PS: According to my troll I'm not a remain voter BTW :rofl:

...but if I were I'd say I respect your opinion but a couple of points of order:

1. Brexit isn't done.
The government is trying to tear up the "great deal for the UK" NI agreement that they signed up to, the "agreement" on fisheries is under dispute and there are a whole host of other arrangements that the Tories are reneging on - with the EU, their former partners in crime the DUP and the people that voted for them.
To quote the pig farmer on Woman's Hour "I voted for Brexit for people to be more patriotic, but I didn't vote for this" (Killing he stock before it gets to market) Pig ignorance I guess but TBF they never actually said what Brexit was did they? Apart from Brexit.
2. The "trade deals" they promised would be easy as "falling off a log".
Where to begin? USA? No chance. Australia? For the first time in history they've conceded open access to the UK farmer's market and opened up the UK to cheaper foreign goods that UK farmers won't be able to compete with. Worse still they're preparing to roll over for the likes of Argentina and other major agricultural producers - whilst simultaneously excluding non-UK workers who have been critical to growing, harvesting, packing, processing and delivering our food. Exporters are facing unprecedented costs, importers and manufacturers too and the wheels are coming off the economy - which despite what you say is still smaller than it was before the pandemic and is growing slower than other developed nations. Just today, the IMF have downgraded our forecast.
It's an absolute train wreck and it will hit everyone sooner or later.
3. City of London
Financial output has fallen and tax revenues from the City of London are forecast to continue falling by £5 billion this year. what are you talking about?
4.
White wrote:it does no good keep looking for negative factors whilst ignoring the huge possibilities our new freedoms present us with. Unless we all accept where we are and try to make the best of it we won’t get anywhere

New freedoms? Name one.

Freedom to live on an island with more new Covid cases than the rest of Europe combined? Freedom to have less choice in the shops? Freedom to join a five year waiting list for medical attention? Freedom to pay more for everything? Freedom to do without stuff I can no longer get or can't be delivered? Freedom to have to fill in a mountain of paperwork every time I go on holiday? Freedom to watch the less fortunate members of our society increasingly struggle? 

Why "accept where we are and try to make the best of it"? That makes no sense whatsoever. The country is going to pot so your suggestion is to sit by and let it happen? Really?

If I wanted to try to make the best of it I'd join a protest about it as part of my freedom of public assembly - but hang on - aren't the Tories currently trying to push through a bill to remove that freedom?

Wake up and smell the coffee man. It's a disaster and as soon as people man up and accept they were lied to, the sooner we can get on with the job of getting the country back on track.



Last edited by wanderlust on Mon Oct 18 2021, 17:23; edited 2 times in total

261Brexit Watch - Page 9 Empty Re: Brexit Watch Mon Oct 18 2021, 17:19

T.R.O.Y.


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
@Natasha Whittam wrote:

It was a top post because it was a bit of positivity.

This is a football forum, do I really need to read the same post rehashed day after day after day?

You don't like or agree with Brexit. I get it. No need to labour the point.

Key part of my post was the end and shows how the situation has changed massively, the disaster is no longer 'project fear' it is reality - so long as we have people like White ignoring that reality then the charlatans who sold it to them will stay in power and we won't get back to a positive situation. 

That point does need labouring, if we let them live in dream world where will change come from?

262Brexit Watch - Page 9 Empty Re: Brexit Watch Mon Oct 18 2021, 18:55

okocha

okocha
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf
@Norpig wrote:Genuine question and not try to wind up people, but was Brexit worth it if it causes Northern Ireland to go back to the bad old days? Its in the news regularly that the Unionists are far from happy with the sea border and all the extra checks its caused.

Shouldn't the Good Friday agreement have been taken into more consideration when Brexit was being voted on?
My sentiments exactly. Well said, Norpig.

263Brexit Watch - Page 9 Empty Re: Brexit Watch Mon Oct 18 2021, 19:05

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@T.R.O.Y. wrote:Key part of my post was the end and shows how the situation has changed massively, the disaster is no longer 'project fear' it is reality - so long as we have people like White ignoring that reality then the charlatans who sold it to them will stay in power and we won't get back to a positive situation. 

That point does need labouring, if we let them live in dream world where will change come from?

Reality? Most things going tits up in this world right now are due to the pandemic. That's the sad reality.

Brexit is a long term project, I've said that from the start. Major change doesn't come easily. However, the impact is being felt in a positive way, from where I'm sitting people doing traditionally low paid work are finally being valued. I really don't see how anyone can see that as a bad thing.

264Brexit Watch - Page 9 Empty Re: Brexit Watch Mon Oct 18 2021, 19:46

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
History is what happened, not what we wished had happened. No use fighting battles that have already been lost.
We now need to come together and find a way to make this work, hard as that may be.

265Brexit Watch - Page 9 Empty Re: Brexit Watch Mon Oct 18 2021, 23:33

Whitesince63


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
Crikey, talk about put a negative spin on something. It’s perfectly clear that some remain voters really don’t want to see any positives in anything. T.R.O.Y obviously gets his financial information from the Granuad, or makes it up to suit his views and wander, after 50 years tied to a bloc that has virtually bankrupted every Southern European state to support German Engineering and French farming seems absolutely ridiculous. The EU is and always has been a German French club with little or no regard to any of the other members, including the UK, though they were more than ready to take our billions every year. 

It would have been unthinkable to even imagine that there wouldn’t be any disadvantages or issues breaking away, of course there are and it will take time to overcome them. The pandemic has just made things much worse but this country is more than capable of reaching new highs as it has done many times before from adversity during our history. I may be totally wrong, have been duped by politicians and brought the country to its knees, or I may equally have been one of those who saw the light and was prepared to suffer initial pain for the later gains. I actually have confidence in this country and the people who live in it and would rather talk and build it up than put it down like you do.

266Brexit Watch - Page 9 Empty Re: Brexit Watch Tue Oct 19 2021, 01:52

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Whitesince63 wrote:Crikey, talk about put a negative spin on something. It’s perfectly clear that some remain voters really don’t want to see any positives in anything. 
A bit pot/kettle that amigo.

It was the Remain voters who recognised all the positives about EU membership including low prices, ready supplies and raw materials for our manufacturers, wide choice of goods, fantastic worldwide trade deals based on the collective bargaining power of a huge bloc, inexpensive foreign labour doing the jobs Brits wouldn't and still won't, a strong economy, free unencumbered travel, minimal paperwork for our businesses, no import or export taxes, a rock solid supply chain, plenty of doctors, carers and medical staff, better national security arrangements, improved scientific research etc etc.
The negative ones were the Leave voters who were prepared to throw all that away because of what? Straight bananas?

EU membership had some minor problems for the UK - which could have been sorted out as a member - but rather than stand and fight our corner in Brussels we ran away.

Now the problems our country faces are a thousand times worse than anything we had as an EU member. 
Our negotiators are still weak and have sold us down the river in the few deals they've agreed so far - because the fact is we are small fry compared to the EU - we just don't have the clout to drive a hard bargain with the big boys and we are getting shafted at every turn. America won't even discuss a deal.

Criticism of the government isn't spin - it's stating the bleeding obvious. Nor is it negative - if these clowns are going to be stopped before they do any more damage people have to speak up as the one thing they do respond to is public opinion.

Unfortunately there is a rump of Brexiteers who simply don't want to see what's before their very eyes and are stuck in a spiral of finding excuses for what the government are doing:

"We knew everything that Project Fear predicted would come true all along - because Brexit is a long term project and it was always going to happen" (perhaps they should have mentioned that at the referendum)

"It's Covid's fault not the government"

"It's the EU's fault not the government"

There are many more but the fact is they had no plan, they had no negotiation strategy, they massively overestimated our bargaining strength, they undermined trust amongst potential partners, they put the principles of sovereignty ahead of the economy - on which everything else stands and they grossly underestimated the cost of Brexit which as it turns out is far, far greater than the cost of EU membership.

I'm deeply unhappy that Brexit is turning out as predicted, but the important thing now is to stop it getting even worse - and the only thing that this lot listen to is voters. After all, their objective is to stay in power for as long as possible before they retire to the lecture circuit abroad.

If Leave voters have any vestige of national and personal pride left, they'll man up and put an end to this debacle - because their country needs them.

267Brexit Watch - Page 9 Empty Re: Brexit Watch Tue Oct 19 2021, 08:30

okocha

okocha
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf
Ws63: do you write for the Express? Learn to spell "Guardian", and respect it for its honesty and factual reporting.

Lusty: your post above is very well expressed and neatly summarises the truth of the situation. We will only recover if we learn from the greatest act of self-harm that our country has ever inflicted on itself.

And TROY is so right to point out the tragedy of damage to N.I. and the Good Friday Agreement.

Our willingness to break the law, wheedle our way out of promises and pacts, deny, lie, obfuscate etc means that our standing in the world is badly damaged. We are no longer trusted across the globe.

Our media should not join in with attempts to hoodwink or gaslight the public.

268Brexit Watch - Page 9 Empty Re: Brexit Watch Tue Oct 19 2021, 09:11

Ten Bobsworth


El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf
@okocha wrote:Ws63: do you write for the Express? Learn to spell "Guardian", and respect it for its honesty and factual reporting.

Lusty: your post above is very well expressed and neatly summarises the truth of the situation. We will only recover if we learn from the greatest act of self-harm that our country has ever inflicted on itself.

And TROY is so right to point out the tragedy of damage to N.I. and the Good Friday Agreement.

Our willingness to break the law, wheedle our way out of promises and pacts, deny, lie, obfuscate etc means that our standing in the world is badly damaged. We are no longer trusted across the globe.

Our media should not join in with attempts to hoodwink or gaslight the public.
Here's a bit of honesty and factual reporting for you.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/mar/11/dean-holdsworth-bolton-wanderers-championship

How thick do you have to be to publish this stuff and how thick do you have to be to swallow it?

269Brexit Watch - Page 9 Empty Re: Brexit Watch Tue Oct 19 2021, 10:09

Whitesince63


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
@wanderlust wrote:
A bit pot/kettle that amigo.

It was the Remain voters who recognised all the positives about EU membership including low prices, ready supplies and raw materials for our manufacturers, wide choice of goods, fantastic worldwide trade deals based on the collective bargaining power of a huge bloc, inexpensive foreign labour doing the jobs Brits wouldn't and still won't, a strong economy, free unencumbered travel, minimal paperwork for our businesses, no import or export taxes, a rock solid supply chain, plenty of doctors, carers and medical staff, better national security arrangements, improved scientific research etc etc.
The negative ones were the Leave voters who were prepared to throw all that away because of what? Straight bananas?

EU membership had some minor problems for the UK - which could have been sorted out as a member - but rather than stand and fight our corner in Brussels we ran away.

Now the problems our country faces are a thousand times worse than anything we had as an EU member. 
Our negotiators are still weak and have sold us down the river in the few deals they've agreed so far - because the fact is we are small fry compared to the EU - we just don't have the clout to drive a hard bargain with the big boys and we are getting shafted at every turn. America won't even discuss a deal.

Criticism of the government isn't spin - it's stating the bleeding obvious. Nor is it negative - if these clowns are going to be stopped before they do any more damage people have to speak up as the one thing they do respond to is public opinion.

Unfortunately there is a rump of Brexiteers who simply don't want to see what's before their very eyes and are stuck in a spiral of finding excuses for what the government are doing:

"We knew everything that Project Fear predicted would come true all along - because Brexit is a long term project and it was always going to happen" (perhaps they should have mentioned that at the referendum)

"It's Covid's fault not the government"

"It's the EU's fault not the government"

There are many more but the fact is they had no plan, they had no negotiation strategy, they massively overestimated our bargaining strength, they undermined trust amongst potential partners, they put the principles of sovereignty ahead of the economy - on which everything else stands and they grossly underestimated the cost of Brexit which as it turns out is far, far greater than the cost of EU membership.

I'm deeply unhappy that Brexit is turning out as predicted, but the important thing now is to stop it getting even worse - and the only thing that this lot listen to is voters. After all, their objective is to stay in power for as long as possible before they retire to the lecture circuit abroad.

If Leave voters have any vestige of national and personal pride left, they'll man up and put an end to this debacle - because their country needs them.

I don’t know how old you are Lusty but I’m old enough to remember the UK as it was before we joined the Common Market and voted against remaining members in 75 when it was clear that membership was much more than we were being told. Government kept the real truth from us then just as they do now, including BoJo. We didn’t have any problem with Brits doing all the jobs available at that time and certainly didn’t need cheap Labour from abroad. We even picked our own fruit and very good fruit it was until the EU came in with all their silly regulations like banana shape, which got the headlines but misses the point. We produce around 2,500 different types of apples across the UK but how many do you see in supermarkets? Very few due to the rules on uniformity, size and colour, so we need to import instead.

We had a manufacturing industry, a fishing industry and amongst the most modern and productive farming industry in the world. Where are they now? We produced our own milk via the Milk Marketing Board ensuring farmers received the best deal. All gone to your precious EU with its food and Milk mountains through the CAP, just to suit France.

Of course finance is being located to EU countries to ensure UK companies comply with EU regulation but it’s just figures on a spreadsheet and EU companies have done the same into the UK so they can keep operating here. Fact is, there is no European financial centre that can even begin to compare with London and that’s not going to change. The EU reluctance to offer the UK the same rights it offers the likes of the US and Singapore is nothing but spite but it will backfire on them in the end as we give up on them.

Nobody’s denying the problems we’re facing including NI but the EU have used that situation purely as a bargaining chip despite the possible repercussions. It’s disgraceful and disingenuous and another example of why we’re better out. With only around 5% of NI trade going to the South, are you really trying to tell me that currently available schemes couldn’t have been applied across the border?

We can disagree on this until the cows come home but the fact is that the EU is a corrupt bureaucratic mess which will sooner or later crumble. It’s out of date, expensive and unrepresentative of what’s happening in the world today. It may be tough just now but I’d much rather be where we are now and will be more so in the future when we’ve thrown off the last shackles of the mess that is the EU.

270Brexit Watch - Page 9 Empty Re: Brexit Watch Tue Oct 19 2021, 13:48

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Whitesince63 wrote:

I don’t know how old you are Lusty but I’m old enough to remember the UK as it was before we joined the Common Market and voted against remaining members in 75 when it was clear that membership was much more than we were being told. Government kept the real truth from us then just as they do now, including BoJo. We didn’t have any problem with Brits doing all the jobs available at that time and certainly didn’t need cheap Labour from abroad. We even picked our own fruit and very good fruit it was until the EU came in with all their silly regulations like banana shape, which got the headlines but misses the point. We produce around 2,500 different types of apples across the UK but how many do you see in supermarkets? Very few due to the rules on uniformity, size and colour, so we need to import instead.

We had a manufacturing industry, a fishing industry and amongst the most modern and productive farming industry in the world. Where are they now? We produced our own milk via the Milk Marketing Board ensuring farmers received the best deal. All gone to your precious EU with its food and Milk mountains through the CAP, just to suit France.

Of course finance is being located to EU countries to ensure UK companies comply with EU regulation but it’s just figures on a spreadsheet and EU companies have done the same into the UK so they can keep operating here. Fact is, there is no European financial centre that can even begin to compare with London and that’s not going to change. The EU reluctance to offer the UK the same rights it offers the likes of the US and Singapore is nothing but spite but it will backfire on them in the end as we give up on them.

Nobody’s denying the problems we’re facing including NI but the EU have used that situation purely as a bargaining chip despite the possible repercussions. It’s disgraceful and disingenuous and another example of why we’re better out. With only around 5% of NI trade going to the South, are you really trying to tell me that currently available schemes couldn’t have been applied across the border?

We can disagree on this until the cows come home but the fact is that the EU is a corrupt bureaucratic mess which will sooner or later crumble. It’s out of date, expensive and unrepresentative of what’s happening in the world today. It may be tough just now but I’d much rather be where we are now and will be more so in the future when we’ve thrown off the last shackles of the mess that is the EU.
I'm old enough to remember before that when the UK economy was on it's arse and massive inflation was driving prices up before we joined the Common Market in 1973 - the Tories were in favour and Labour against.
The following year Ted Heath's government capped public sector wages and introduced the 3 day week, forced TV companies to stop broadcasting at 10.30 to save electricity, basic services closed down and the first signs of serious industrial unrest emerged coming to a head in 79 and the "Winter of Discontent" - which ironically the Tories blamed on Labour and still hash it up years later.

The EU is a mess and we know that because they are open and honest about everything they do - although the problems are massively exaggerated by the media who selective never talked about the huge benefits we gained. Nor did they ever get on the back of our government for failing to sort out the mess when they had influence to do so. If the EU was a mess then it was at least in part our mess.

However, the British Government is a bigger mess  especially when it doesn't have to answer to it's partners who serve to keep it's excesses in check. And although it's very cloak and dagger there is sufficient evidence out there to suggest that the British government is even more corrupt than Brussels.

The fact is the Tories took us into Europe, then blamed it for our problems, and then took us back out again - which stinks of poor leadership, failure to take full advantage of the benefits of membership, indecision and what my missus calls "slopey shoulders" i.e. never accepting responsibility. They are the party of spin and disinformation.

That said, it's clear attitudes towards Brexit are changing amongst Brexiteers and "Leaver regret" is at it highest level to date.

The Sunday Mail - that bastion of pro-Brexit Toryism ran a readers' poll recently but the results were shockingly bad from their perspective so they buried it at the bottom of an inside page this weekend.

Brexit Watch - Page 9 FB6j9mSWUAMJ4Jr?format=jpg&name=small

When only 36% of Sunday Fail readers would vote for Brexit now - and more surprisingly 45% would vote remain - it tells you something about the mood of the country.

Also worth noting that 52% of them think Boris isn't doing a good job.

Worryingly 20% think he'd make a better husband than Keir Starmer which tells me that 1 in 5 conservative women are very, very desperate indeed  Smile )

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