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Bolton Nuts » BWFC » Wandering Minds » Brexit Watch

Brexit Watch

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Ten Bobsworth
Hipster_Nebula
gloswhite
okocha
Cajunboy
Natasha Whittam
Angry Dad
Norpig
Sluffy
sunlight
karlypants
boltonbonce
wanderlust
xmiles
18 posters

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481Brexit Watch - Page 25 Empty Re: Brexit Watch Sun Feb 06 2022, 20:04

okocha

okocha
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf

Cake and wine = falure to lead by example, showing contempt for the citizens he is meant to be serving.

482Brexit Watch - Page 25 Empty Re: Brexit Watch Mon Feb 07 2022, 10:21

Whitesince63


Andy Walker
Andy Walker

okocha wrote:Cake and wine = falure to lead by example, showing contempt for the citizens he is meant to be serving.

Can’t and won’t deny that Oko and it may yet cost him his job but like the majority I believe, sorting out the economy and the world situation is much more important than Partygate, however disgraceful it was. I can only hope that a weakened and chastised PM can now be forced to drop his ridiculous green agenda, face reality on energy and get Brexit done properly, including kicking the arrogant EU idiots up the backside and returning NI fully to the U.K.

483Brexit Watch - Page 25 Empty Re: Brexit Watch Mon Feb 07 2022, 11:04

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Whitesince63 wrote:

Can’t and won’t deny that Oko and it may yet cost him his job but like the majority I believe, sorting out the economy and the world situation is much more important than Partygate, however disgraceful it was. I can only hope that a weakened and chastised PM can now be forced to drop his ridiculous green agenda, face reality on energy and get Brexit done properly, including kicking the arrogant EU idiots up the backside and returning NI fully to the U.K.
I really struggle with your dislike of investment in green energy White as even if we ignore the environmental considerations and the potential advantages of becoming a world leader in green technology - or at least catching up - the sheer cost of going back to e.g. coal makes it unviable - it's simply not an option we can afford. Even a small 1gigawatt coal power station costs between  £1 and 3 billion to build (depending on how polluting you want it to be) but the raw material cost - reopening pits which Thatcher herself deemed mined out and unviable - or paying an import premium - make the real costs huge and unreliable. Whereas we have a free supply of wind, waves and tides, hydro, geothermal and sunlight. And nuclear for that matter, plus biofuels to some extent.
And with gas and oil only going in one direction supply and pricewise and with the Tories having largely pawned off our own gas and oil resources to global companies  over the last 50 years anyway - global companies who avoid paying us taxes for the fruits of the licences our idiot government gave them - surely our only realistic and affordable long term  "opportunity" is to go green and give green technologies the investment that the fossil fuel magnates have starved it of?

Putting aside the environmental issues at stake here, I just don't understand the basic economics of your argument White. Can you explain it to me?

484Brexit Watch - Page 25 Empty Re: Brexit Watch Mon Feb 07 2022, 13:57

Guest


Guest

Whitesince63 wrote:My solution? Simple, firstly increase the extraction of our own oil and gas, pass the licenses to allow companies to frack for gas. Open up the necessary coal mines to allow essential industries like steel and cement to produce good without importing it. We live on islands which allow us to be completely self sufficient without having to rely on imports.

I know you don’t like Brexit but free from the restrictions of the EU, we have the opportunity to completely reinvigorate our manufacturing and intellectual sectors. We are lucky to live in arguably the most innovative and entrepreneurial country in the world, including a finance structure more than happy to invest in new industries. Globalisation is on the wane, which is why I fear most for the EU, as countries rediscover the reality that producing goods close to home is not only greener but also more efficient. We have one of the most developed distribution set ups in the world with which to service and supply new industries created here. 

Take green energy. I’m sure everybody agrees on the need to move towards renewables but surely it is more sensible to produce the structures needed here, rather than import them from the likes of China? We need the government to invest heavily to support such industries and with the engineering strength we have, it can be done quickly. We can produce much more of our own food, including products once considered seasonal like salads using modern methods and greenhouse technology. Fruit, vegetables and farming generally can be huge areas of growth and why are we importing 95% of our processed potato goods like chips and roasts from a Belgian company? It’s madness when it can be produced here. At the moment, companies are strangled by red tape and regulations, much of which can now be burnt and I’m not talking about lowering standards. Quite the reverse in fact as we should have standards that others have to match on employment and workers rights laws as well as animal welfare.

The government needs to have a proper long term plan to invest in these industries by cutting both taxes and regulations to allow investors and entrepreneurs to benefit, creating new well paid jobs as well as extra revenue to spend on the schools and hospitals we need. As I said, it’s called capitalism. At the moment we might as well have a real Labour government because that’s what this bunch of non Tories are. Until there’s a concerted move back to the right of centre this country’s going nowhere and if Boris continues to waste the biggest majority since Maggie, that’s the reason he should be binned, not because of cake and wine.

I disagree with almost all of it but fair enough, that's certainly one long term strategy. What about the short term though? Costs are sky rocketing, we already have a cost of living crisis - what's the solution?

485Brexit Watch - Page 25 Empty Re: Brexit Watch Mon Feb 07 2022, 14:53

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

T.R.O.Y. wrote:

I disagree with almost all of it but fair enough, that's certainly one long term strategy. What about the short term though? Costs are sky rocketing, we already have a cost of living crisis - what's the solution?
Not sure there is one - we're sitting on an energy timebomb set to go off in 3 years time unless the government postpone the planned closure of half our nuclear plants. We've burned our bridges with gas and oil unless we rescind the contracts and commandeer and nationalise the foreign businesses operating in our waters with military force which won't go down well and coal was on it's last legs anyway. Worst of all, we underinvested in the development of alternatives for 50 years so their efficiency isn't yet where it needs to be although TBF the international fossil fuel companies were allowed to snap up all the early patents so they could park them on a shelf to eliminate the competition. And we've sold off our rights to own and operate the nuclear plants on our own soil. Barring a miracle, we're f*cked.

That said, one achievable solution outside this scenario is to ration power, insulate everything, put solar panels on every roof and ground and air source heat pumps in every home where it's possible to do so, surround the country with wave generators and windfarms, put mini hydro plants in every river and build our own nuclear plants whilst investing heavily in new tech such as hydrogen cells - only this time renationalising everything it so it belongs to the British people and we won't be dependent on imports.

Either way it's going to be expensive and the implications for the countryside and coastline will be massive.

486Brexit Watch - Page 25 Empty Re: Brexit Watch Mon Feb 07 2022, 14:59

Guest


Guest

Short term solutions are what countries across Europe are adopting, increasing support to those who need it most desperately - either by tax cuts or increased benefits - or putting the onus onto companies to take the hit.

WS63 has disagreed with each of those approached so im keen to understand what solution he does see as viable.

487Brexit Watch - Page 25 Empty Re: Brexit Watch Mon Feb 07 2022, 18:51

Whitesince63


Andy Walker
Andy Walker

wanderlust wrote:
I really struggle with your dislike of investment in green energy White as even if we ignore the environmental considerations and the potential advantages of becoming a world leader in green technology - or at least catching up - the sheer cost of going back to e.g. coal makes it unviable - it's simply not an option we can afford. Even a small 1gigawatt coal power station costs between  £1 and 3 billion to build (depending on how polluting you want it to be) but the raw material cost - reopening pits which Thatcher herself deemed mined out and unviable - or paying an import premium - make the real costs huge and unreliable. Whereas we have a free supply of wind, waves and tides, hydro, geothermal and sunlight. And nuclear for that matter, plus biofuels to some extent.
And with gas and oil only going in one direction supply and pricewise and with the Tories having largely pawned off our own gas and oil resources to global companies  over the last 50 years anyway - global companies who avoid paying us taxes for the fruits of the licences our idiot government gave them - surely our only realistic and affordable long term  "opportunity" is to go green and give green technologies the investment that the fossil fuel magnates have starved it of?

Putting aside the environmental issues at stake here, I just don't understand the basic economics of your argument White. Can you explain it to me?
I think you’re misunderstanding me Lusty but apologies if I haven’t made it clear. I’m not suggesting we go back to coal fired power production, I’m talking about situations like the one in Cumberland where permission to extract coal for a manufacturing plant was refused meaning we had to import it? That’s madness when jobs could have been created here. It’s not true to say we’ve “sold out” our oil and gas reserves. We’ve passed the production costs it’s true but we benefit from the extra tax and the fracking industry is all ready to go in the North when permission is given. When the government refused support to Centrica to update the Rough gas storage complex, it did so because of its premature and ridiculous move to green energy, despite the fact it would risk leaving us short of stocks and at the mercy of the markets.

I’ve made it perfectly clear that I have no problem moving to renewables but it is the speed of the move that is damaging. There are six contracts waiting to be authorised for new gas and oil wells in the North Sea plus those for fracking. Let’s get those passed to resolve the current situation and invest in the technology required to store the power produced from windmills, which at the moment is being wasted. It is the unseemly haste of the move to net zero that I have problems with, not the actual move itself. I’d also like to see more investment in the physical infrastructure around renewables that I’d like to see the government championing rather than importing from China. Surely you can’t disagree with that?

488Brexit Watch - Page 25 Empty Re: Brexit Watch Mon Feb 07 2022, 19:06

Whitesince63


Andy Walker
Andy Walker

wanderlust wrote:
Not sure there is one - we're sitting on an energy timebomb set to go off in 3 years time unless the government postpone the planned closure of half our nuclear plants. We've burned our bridges with gas and oil unless we rescind the contracts and commandeer and nationalise the foreign businesses operating in our waters with military force which won't go down well and coal was on it's last legs anyway. Worst of all, we underinvested in the development of alternatives for 50 years so their efficiency isn't yet where it needs to be although TBF the international fossil fuel companies were allowed to snap up all the early patents so they could park them on a shelf to eliminate the competition. And we've sold off our rights to own and operate the nuclear plants on our own soil. Barring a miracle, we're f*cked.

That said, one achievable solution outside this scenario is to ration power, insulate everything, put solar panels on every roof and ground and air source heat pumps in every home where it's possible to do so, surround the country with wave generators and windfarms, put mini hydro plants in every river and build our own nuclear plants whilst investing heavily in new tech such as hydrogen cells - only this time renationalising everything it so it belongs to the British people and we won't be dependent on imports.

Either way it's going to be expensive and the implications for the countryside and coastline will be massive.
Sorry lusty but you’re living in cloud cuckoo land. We will never own the energy companies again, we couldn’t even begin to afford it and where is all the money coming from to invest in all the technology you’re quoting for wave and wind power, plus the nuclear and the hydrogen? Face it, it can only be done by private capital with the government agreeing taxation levels for what’s extracted, exactly as we have now.

Where’s the point in the government spending our money on goods for wind and solar, imported from China? Support and encourage our own companies to do it here instead. Yes, the government will have to offer financial support as it has done with the new British Volt battery plant in the North East. That’s where our money should be spent.

Look at where the government is investing and reducing red tape with fintech companies. There were more Fintech deals constructed in the U.K. last year than anywhere outside the US and more that Germany, France and China combined. Investment rose from $5.3b to $37.3b in one year alone making us by far the biggest market in Europe. These are the new industries of the future but the same thing can happen with renewable infrastructure if we only invest in it ourselves. For now, oil and gas are todays fuels and cutting them off has caused our problem. The US with their home produced gas and oil aren’t suffering like we are and since we could also be self sufficient, that’s where we should be for today. Tomorrow will come but not yet.

489Brexit Watch - Page 25 Empty Re: Brexit Watch Mon Feb 07 2022, 19:23

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Whitesince63 wrote:
Sorry lusty but you’re living in cloud cuckoo land. We will never own the energy companies again, we couldn’t even begin to afford it and where is all the money coming from to invest in all the technology you’re quoting for wave and wind power, plus the nuclear and the hydrogen? Face it, it can only be done by private capital with the government agreeing taxation levels for what’s extracted, exactly as we have now.

Where’s the point in the government spending our money on goods for wind and solar, imported from China? Support and encourage our own companies to do it here instead. Yes, the government will have to offer financial support as it has done with the new British Volt battery plant in the North East. That’s where our money should be spent.

Look at where the government is investing and reducing red tape with fintech companies. There were more Fintech deals constructed in the U.K. last year than anywhere outside the US and more that Germany, France and China combined. Investment rose from $5.3b to $37.3b in one year alone making us by far the biggest market in Europe. These are the new industries of the future but the same thing can happen with renewable infrastructure if we only invest in it ourselves. For now, oil and gas are todays fuels and cutting them off has caused our problem. The US with their home produced gas and oil aren’t suffering like we are and since we could also be self sufficient, that’s where we should be for today. Tomorrow will come but not yet.
Don't really follow that. I say we should be investing in UK businesses to develop our power infrastructure - and you say the same?
And how do we become self-sufficient in oil and gas when we've given it away already? We don't own the right to drill for our own oil and gas anymore. We should be collecting more tax and fees for the companies we've licensed instead of showering them with incentives though.

490Brexit Watch - Page 25 Empty Re: Brexit Watch Tue Feb 08 2022, 13:53

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

T.R.O.Y. wrote:Nobody’s suggesting Shell should volunteer to pay more tax, that’s the governments job.

Why should they pay? Because they are the ones making huge profits as a result of this crisis at the expense of the tax payer - the balance is entirely wrong.

They’ve had a record breaking first quarter, and the consumer is set for record breaking price increases. It’s up to the government to redress that balance - but they choose to side with big business every time.

What exactly is your solution?

Thought this might add to the debate in respect of this point.

Brexit Watch - Page 25 _121535704_dharshinidavid_today_tr-nc

The very same energy prices that have spelt crippling bills for consumers have prompted BP's boss to describe his operation right now as a "cash machine". A combination of resurgent demand and geopolitical tensions means wholesale gas prices are five times higher than before the pandemic - while oil prices have almost doubled.

And analysts think BP and Shell could make almost £40bn in profits this year, enough to cover the energy bills of the majority of UK households. The chancellor is not convinced of the need for a windfall tax, fearing that it could damage investment in lower carbon forms of energy.

BP's plans to invest in renewables are among the most ambitious in the sector, with an aim to increase spending on low carbon technologies 10-fold, to almost a third of its budget in 10 years.

But critics say that they could go further and that there could still be scope, given the scale of these profits, to help foot the bill for struggling customers

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60299886

491Brexit Watch - Page 25 Empty Re: Brexit Watch Tue Feb 08 2022, 13:58

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Our new Minister for Brexit "Opportunities"...
Brexit Watch - Page 25 DlW8PVLXsAAvZ4f
Proverbs 26:11

492Brexit Watch - Page 25 Empty Re: Brexit Watch Tue Feb 08 2022, 14:03

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

For someone who tells us he doesn't do social media you're posting an awful lot of stuff from off it!

The appointment was only made a matter of minutes ago!!!

493Brexit Watch - Page 25 Empty Re: Brexit Watch Tue Feb 08 2022, 14:07

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Brexit Watch - Page 25 Pigeons

494Brexit Watch - Page 25 Empty Re: Brexit Watch Tue Feb 08 2022, 14:17

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

Very much like you then...

Rolling Eyes

495Brexit Watch - Page 25 Empty Re: Brexit Watch Tue Feb 08 2022, 14:20

Guest


Guest

wanderlust wrote:Brexit Watch - Page 25 Pigeons

Laughing

That is very much on point.

496Brexit Watch - Page 25 Empty Re: Brexit Watch Tue Feb 08 2022, 14:21

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Finally JRM has been given the opportunity to realise his vision...Brexit Watch - Page 25 R.7e90c21438eb4ae25215bc105a7f52a9?rik=jsBSsLWXUfeg1g&riu=http%3a%2f%2fwww.totalpolitics.com%2fsites%2fwww.totalpolitics.com%2ffiles%2fsites%2fwww.totalpolitics.com%2ffiles%2fimce%2f500x359xbrookes2018.1.jpg.pagespeed.ic.-f9iXkAcll

497Brexit Watch - Page 25 Empty Re: Brexit Watch Tue Feb 08 2022, 14:29

Guest


Guest

All well and good appointing someone like Rees Mogg, he made the promises (/told the lies) the government are failing to deliver and should be held to account. But he's also shown himself to be cavalier and uneducated on serious issues including Northern Ireland - I fear his desperation will lead us into an even darker spot than we're already in.

498Brexit Watch - Page 25 Empty Re: Brexit Watch Tue Feb 08 2022, 14:34

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

As soon as entrepreneurs and investors make real big money they leave the country.
There is an entire industry devoted to them minimising their contribution to this country.
If you have any belief in this country - and we are led to believe that most Tories are nationalists - why encourage foreign (and domestic) vultures to strip our bones when we could be retaining control AND benefiting from the profits from our resources and labour instead of watching it disappear offshore?

Why do you think there are so many foreign billionaires backing the Tories?

499Brexit Watch - Page 25 Empty Re: Brexit Watch Tue Feb 08 2022, 17:35

Whitesince63


Andy Walker
Andy Walker

wanderlust wrote:As soon as entrepreneurs and investors make real big money they leave the country.
There is an entire industry devoted to them minimising their contribution to this country.
If you have any belief in this country - and we are led to believe that most Tories are nationalists - why encourage foreign (and domestic) vultures to strip our bones when we could be retaining control AND benefiting from the profits from our resources and labour instead of watching it disappear offshore?

Why do you think there are so many foreign billionaires backing the Tories?

Rubbish, come on Lusty, you’re better than that. The government are attempting to make it easier for firms to grow, as well as list on the market here. Many are now doing that as I pointed out in a recent post. They are also making it more difficult for foreign companies to come in and steal our technology and defence businesses which have been raped and pillaged for long enough under successive governments. At the same time they are trying, successfully it seems, to encourage more external investment. Now we’re free of the EU restrictions we can support companies in so many different ways.

500Brexit Watch - Page 25 Empty Re: Brexit Watch Wed Feb 09 2022, 11:27

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Whitesince63 wrote:

Rubbish, come on Lusty, you’re better than that. The government are attempting to make it easier for firms to grow, as well as list on the market here. Many are now doing that as I pointed out in a recent post. They are also making it more difficult for foreign companies to come in and steal our technology and defence businesses which have been raped and pillaged for long enough under successive governments. At the same time they are trying, successfully it seems, to encourage more external investment. Now we’re free of the EU restrictions we can support companies in so many different ways.
You actually believe that?
Successive Tory governments have spread their legs for global corporations time and time again handing them tax breaks, ownership, operating rights and grants to come here rather than spend the money on British businesses, take national ownership of our resources or tax them fairly - no wonder they want to come here when they are effectively bribed to do it. They've sold British interests and British businesses down the river mate.

Why do you think Murdoch spent 30 years slagging off the EU and was one of the several foreign architects of Brexit? Is it because the EU wouldn't hand out broadcasting rights like we did?

"I once asked Rupert Murdoch why he was so opposed to the European Union. 'That’s easy,' he replied. 'When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice.'"

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