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Club restructuring.

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1Club restructuring. Empty Club restructuring. on Tue Mar 03, 2020 2:35 pm

MartinBWFC

MartinBWFC
Frank Worthington
Frank Worthington



Not got a clue what it all means but somebody maybe unravel it.

2Club restructuring. Empty Re: Club restructuring. on Tue Mar 03, 2020 3:38 pm

Norpig

Norpig
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Slightly worrying that the academy is being downgraded from a level 2 to level 3 which will affect recruitment i would guess? 
Also they are getting rid of the u23's at the end of the season so what happens to the likes of Edwards, Zouma etc if they are not in the first team squad? In effect it means we have no reserves which admittedly isn't a great set up but at least the fringe players get a game and a chance to impress and force their way into the first team.

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3Club restructuring. Empty Re: Club restructuring. on Tue Mar 03, 2020 3:47 pm

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
It means that FV have packed in having a reserve team /U23's and presumably the end for the old guard and McGinlay's buddies Lee and Philips.

Fwiw I've mentioned for years that the academy must have been losing the club millions, it's biggest success being Clough to Forest (and in retrospect that was a very bad buy from Forest) and that I couldn't see the point of it unless we were required to have one somehow - clearly not it now seems.

Whether the scraping of it now is a FV's cost cutting exercise or part of the 'masterplan' is anyone's guess.

From a practical point of view, if we have no U23's anymore and we are under an embargo for squad places next year (23/24 or something like that?) then we won't have any wriggle room if and when players get injured, suspended, off form, worn out, etc, etc, etc - as they will.

I think our stay in division four is going to be much longer than the immediate promotion back that many seem to believe it will.

There as seemed to be an agenda from Hill against the academy and the 'quality' (is that the right word?) that they've been producing - maybe he's been in the know about this from the start?

Maybe the penny has dropped that for clubs like ours, even if we do unearth some occasional gems, that they tend to walk away for free/very little, such as Mooy from a few years back and Luca Connell to Celtic for buttons at the start of the season.

Seems if the gossip is true that Darcey wants more money than we can afford to sign professional with us - hence why he hasn't been playing.

My first thoughts for what they are worth is that it does seem the way things are going for clubs looking to financially sustain themselves (rather than the owners subsidise losses as per the norm now).

I think it is signalling the end for now of any ambition to 'buy' our way up the leagues but rather try to build teams from scratch and sell anyone who turns out to be any good to Championship level clubs - with every sale 'snaking' us back down the league table's following the 'ladders' we've just had to clime to get that far in the first place.

That being the case then do we really need a close on 30,000 capacity stadium and the costs involved for sub 10,000 crowds and the income they will generate???

:bomb:

4Club restructuring. Empty Re: Club restructuring. on Tue Mar 03, 2020 4:22 pm

Norpig

Norpig
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
It wouldn't go down to well if Lee is axed as in general he's done a good job with the u23's when we had a proper system in place (unlike this season). He's very popular with Bolton fans and the Hill out brigade would be out for blood.

Didn't the u23's win their league couple of years ago? I remember they won something so was expecting a few of the players to get a chance at the first team but the team was dismantled which was in hindsight when the problems with finances really started to bite.

5Club restructuring. Empty Re: Club restructuring. on Tue Mar 03, 2020 4:33 pm

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:It means that FV have packed in having a reserve team /U23's and presumably the end for the old guard and McGinlay's buddies Lee and Philips.

Fwiw I've mentioned for years that the academy must have been losing the club millions, it's biggest success being Clough to Forest (and in retrospect that was a very bad buy from Forest) and that I couldn't see the point of it unless we were required to have one somehow - clearly not it now seems.

Whether the scraping of it now is a FV's cost cutting exercise or part of the 'masterplan' is anyone's guess.

From a practical point of view, if we have no U23's anymore and we are under an embargo for squad places next year (23/24 or something like that?) then we won't have any wriggle room if and when players get injured, suspended, off form, worn out, etc, etc, etc - as they will.

I think our stay in division four is going to be much longer than the immediate promotion back that many seem to believe it will.

There as seemed to be an agenda from Hill against the academy and the 'quality' (is that the right word?) that they've been producing - maybe he's been in the know about this from the start?

Maybe the penny has dropped that for clubs like ours, even if we do unearth some occasional gems, that they tend to walk away for free/very little, such as Mooy from a few years back and Luca Connell to Celtic for buttons at the start of the season.

Seems if the gossip is true that Darcey wants more money than we can afford to sign professional with us - hence why he hasn't been playing.

My first thoughts for what they are worth is that it does seem the way things are going for clubs looking to financially sustain themselves (rather than the owners subsidise losses as per the norm now).

I think it is signalling the end for now of any ambition to 'buy' our way up the leagues but rather try to build teams from scratch and sell anyone who turns out to be any good to Championship level clubs - with every sale 'snaking' us back down the league table's following the 'ladders' we've just had to clime to get that far in the first place.

That being the case then do we really need a close on 30,000 capacity stadium and the costs involved for sub 10,000 crowds and the income they will generate???

:bomb:

Football isn't a spreadsheet. You can't say we'll be in "League 4" for years just because the numbers don't look good.

We'll get promoted within two seasons of dropping to League 2.

6Club restructuring. Empty Re: Club restructuring. on Tue Mar 03, 2020 6:03 pm

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:Football isn't a spreadsheet. You can't say we'll be in "League 4" for years just because the numbers don't look good.

We'll get promoted within two seasons of dropping to League 2.

Unfortunately football IS all about spreadsheets these days and it can be clearly demonstrated that the most successful clubs spend the most amounts of money.  This applies at every level of football and not just clubs in the Premier League.

I would suspect that even with the embargo and wage cap, we will be one of the bigger clubs (financially) in terms of home attendance (income) but maybe that would be offset by their expenditure - large stadium to run and maintain, all those big chiefs to pay, EDT and other outstanding creditors that need paying, etc, etc.

From a financial prospective it does make sense dumping the U23's squad as it is a drain on expenditure and that also doesn't appear to have been cost effective over the years.  

Maybe it has been sacrificed in order to allow FV to help establish itself amongst the top financial clubs in the fourth tier next season and thus allowing us to get/afford the better players we need to be competitive and challenge for promotion - but the longer we go without bouncing back, the more that attendances will decline and the less money FV will have to attract and retain the better players needed to be successful.

As I've said above though, IF we are limited to just 23/24 players and just U18's to supplement them, then I can see it being a long old season for us next year - and which in turn will no doubt mean fewer season tickets sold the season afterwards!

7Club restructuring. Empty Re: Club restructuring. on Tue Mar 03, 2020 6:50 pm

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Unfortunately football IS all about spreadsheets these days and it can be clearly demonstrated that the most successful clubs spend the most amounts of money.  This applies at every level of football and not just clubs in the Premier League.


That's your cynical view. But football is about heart and passion, and a crap team can go a long way on just that.

But your argument doesn't even stand up. Would you accept that Sheffield United have spent less than every team in the Premier League yet currently sit in 8th position?

Would you accept that Wycombe (currently 4th) have spent less than most of the teams in our own division including Sunderland?

You've spent too long away from the passion of match day, and what it means to dream as a football fan.

8Club restructuring. Empty Re: Club restructuring. on Tue Mar 03, 2020 7:11 pm

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Unfortunately football IS all about spreadsheets these days and it can be clearly demonstrated that the most successful clubs spend the most amounts of money.  This applies at every level of football and not just clubs in the Premier League.


That's your cynical view. But football is about heart and passion, and a crap team can go a long way on just that.

But your argument doesn't even stand up. Would you accept that Sheffield United have spent less than every team in the Premier League yet currently sit in 8th position?

Would you accept that Wycombe (currently 4th) have spent less than most of the teams in our own division including Sunderland?

You've spent too long away from the passion of match day, and what it means to dream as a football fan.

:agree:
Nat, I think I love you. Bring an overnight bag and some furry slippers.

9Club restructuring. Empty Re: Club restructuring. on Tue Mar 03, 2020 7:19 pm

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Unfortunately football IS all about spreadsheets these days and it can be clearly demonstrated that the most successful clubs spend the most amounts of money.  This applies at every level of football and not just clubs in the Premier League.


That's your cynical view. But football is about heart and passion, and a crap team can go a long way on just that.

But your argument doesn't even stand up. Would you accept that Sheffield United have spent less than every team in the Premier League yet currently sit in 8th position?

Would you accept that Wycombe (currently 4th) have spent less than most of the teams in our own division including Sunderland?

You've spent too long away from the passion of match day, and what it means to dream as a football fan.


There's always a few clubs that for a time, defy the odds - Leicester winning the Premier League for instance - and some clubs that spend millions and underachieve - Liverpool for most of the last 30 years until last and this season - but I don't think any rational person denies that the clubs at the top are there because they generally spend the most money.

Seems clear to me that FV aren't flush with money so clearly they can't go the Eddie Davies route to bring success, so assuming they desire it still, as I and most everybody else do too, then they can only achieve it by incrementally getting better, rather than making massive gains year on year.

I've been saying for years that how the club is run financially directly effects how competitive it is able to be on the pitch.

Many people can't grasp that or don't want to know - but it doesn't stop it from being true.

If you don't want to accept that, then that's up to you and maybe will go up within two seasons but if FV don't/can't find the expenditure to continually back that up season after season, we will simply be unable to keep punching above our 'financial weight' and settle back down to a position more consistent to the spending power of our owners (whose mantra seems to be based on self-sufficiency).

That's how football is these days.

10Club restructuring. Empty Re: Club restructuring. on Tue Mar 03, 2020 8:03 pm

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:There's always a few clubs that for a time, defy the odds - Leicester winning the Premier League for instance

And that's why we go to football matches. Every fan dreams of being the next Leicester or Sheffield Utd.

When Bolton were languishing in the lower divisions in the 80's who would have thought we'd one day be in the upper reaches of the top division and playing the likes of Athletico Madrid and Bayern Munich.

It can happen, starting with next season when we storm League 2.

11Club restructuring. Empty Re: Club restructuring. on Tue Mar 03, 2020 8:03 pm

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:Nat, I think I love you. Bring an overnight bag and some furry slippers.

Don't your family lock you in the attic after 8pm?

12Club restructuring. Empty Re: Club restructuring. on Tue Mar 03, 2020 8:10 pm

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:Nat, I think I love you. Bring an overnight bag and some furry slippers.

Don't your family lock you in the attic after 8pm?
My family have 'disappeared'.

13Club restructuring. Empty Re: Club restructuring. on Tue Mar 03, 2020 8:47 pm

MartinBWFC

MartinBWFC
Frank Worthington
Frank Worthington
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:My family have 'disappeared'.
A-la Fred West?

14Club restructuring. Empty Re: Club restructuring. on Tue Mar 03, 2020 8:48 pm

Norpig

Norpig
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:Nat, I think I love you. Bring an overnight bag and some furry slippers.

Don't your family lock you in the attic after 8pm?
My family have 'disappeared'.
Boncey has turned into Joseph Fritzl  affraid

15Club restructuring. Empty Re: Club restructuring. on Tue Mar 03, 2020 8:50 pm

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:My family have 'disappeared'.
A-la Fred West?
Sorry, I was simply in the wrong house again. As you were.

16Club restructuring. Empty Re: Club restructuring. on Tue Mar 03, 2020 9:11 pm

MartinBWFC

MartinBWFC
Frank Worthington
Frank Worthington
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:Sorry, I was simply in the wrong house again. As you were.
Very Happy

17Club restructuring. Empty Re: Club restructuring. on Wed Mar 04, 2020 2:22 pm

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:There's always a few clubs that for a time, defy the odds - Leicester winning the Premier League for instance

And that's why we go to football matches. Every fan dreams of being the next Leicester or Sheffield Utd.

When Bolton were languishing in the lower divisions in the 80's who would have thought we'd one day be in the upper reaches of the top division and playing the likes of Athletico Madrid and Bayern Munich.

It can happen, starting with next season when we storm League 2.

Leeds lived the dream remember - to some extent we did under Eddie - neither of us came out of it well - and the point I was making was that it could only be done 'for a time', for clubs without owners we very deep (and unending) pockets.

FV clearly seem to me to be more about the club being self-sustaining based on the income it generates - and not what the owners continue to fund from their own pockets.

Bury 'stormed' League 2 last season remember, by brining in players, paying top wages and building up large debts the club couldn't afford pay - although the owner is a millionaire and still is - because it is the 'clubs' debt and not 'his'.

Anyone see Sharon throwing her personal money at the club to 'buy' success - because I can't.

Seems to me the plan is more incremental growth funded over time on a 'find', 'develop' and 'selling' of players, basis - and that, with just 5 players contracted for next season (plus that kid we loaned out to Bamber Bridge), means starting from scratch next season - ground zero - which means it will take seasons/years for the plan to develop and be successful - if indeed it ever does!

Maybe I'm talking out my arse and Sharon will go for broke and pour her millions into building a successful club but I'll be shocked if she did.


18Club restructuring. Empty Re: Club restructuring. on Thu Mar 05, 2020 1:50 pm

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
I imagine that there were at least two scenarios being planned and after our last two results where we really did need to win to have any chance of survival, Plan B is to be rolled out starting with restructuring for L2  finances.

19Club restructuring. Empty Re: Club restructuring. on Thu Mar 05, 2020 2:15 pm

gloswhite

gloswhite
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:I imagine that there were at least two scenarios being planned and after our last two results where we really did need to win to have any chance of survival, Plan B is to be rolled out starting with restructuring for L2  finances.
I think you're right. We've gone down the gurgler, so time to plan ahead.

20Club restructuring. Empty Re: Club restructuring. on Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:54 am

Ten Bobsworth


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:There's always a few clubs that for a time, defy the odds - Leicester winning the Premier League for instance

And that's why we go to football matches. Every fan dreams of being the next Leicester or Sheffield Utd.

When Bolton were languishing in the lower divisions in the 80's who would have thought we'd one day be in the upper reaches of the top division and playing the likes of Athletico Madrid and Bayern Munich.

It can happen, starting with next season when we storm League 2.
Dream, dream, dream, dream

Dream, dream, dream, dream



21Club restructuring. Empty Re: Club restructuring. on Fri Mar 06, 2020 11:41 am

terenceanne

terenceanne
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf
As I have said before.....the goal this season was to actually still have a club - then restructure everything to survive and maybe even make a small profit. Next season will be the same as this one due to our beloved EFL.  FV obviously doesn't have a pot to piss in so that makes you wonder why they are willing to go through all this rigmarole. But anyway so far so good IMO.

22Club restructuring. Empty Re: Club restructuring. on Fri Mar 06, 2020 3:08 pm

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
For every BWFC or Leeds that has invested to accumulate and overstretched themselves there are more clubs who have invested heavily and it's paid off. For some, a push from the Championship to get into the Premiership has been too much and they've lost money but still have enough to carry on. For others - BWFC included in the past - it's given them the huge rewards of Premiership money, now bigger than ever. It's not the principle of investing heavily in a club that's wrong, it's investing badly and not knowing when to stop.

23Club restructuring. Empty Re: Club restructuring. on Fri Mar 06, 2020 7:30 pm

luckyPeterpiper

luckyPeterpiper
Frank Worthington
Frank Worthington
The big problem is that for most clubs below the Premier League there simply isn't the revenue to spend their way to success. Even without the embargo FFP rules would make it impossible for us to simply buy a squad that could run up the leagues in quick succession and frankly we simply aren't big enough to get the kind of revenue we'd need to do it.

In truth there are still far too many clubs in the North West even without the two Manchester and two Merseyside clubs. Bury have effectively fallen, we're skating on wafer thin ice, Blackpool, Oldham, Rochdale, Tranmere, Accrington Stanley, Blackburn Rovers and several others exist more or less day to day or week to week and for most of them the PL might as well be on the moon.

Sadly I can see a time in the not too distant future where some of those clubs will have to merge to survive or simply disappear forever from the Football League. Football is still a pretty expensive way of spending an afternoon or evening compared to most other forms of entertainment and most 'fans' would rather subscribe to Sky and watch the PL from home. In truth it's not even Sky's fault or the Leagues. It's simply that the way people spend their money and free time has changed dramatically in the last twenty years or so and nothing will change it back.

24Club restructuring. Empty Re: Club restructuring. on Sat Mar 07, 2020 12:37 am

terenceanne

terenceanne
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:The big problem is that for most clubs below the Premier League there simply isn't the revenue to spend their way to success. Even without the embargo FFP rules would make it impossible for us to simply buy a squad that could run up the leagues in quick succession and frankly we simply aren't big enough to get the kind of revenue we'd need to do it.

In truth there are still far too many clubs in the North West even without the two Manchester and two Merseyside clubs. Bury have effectively fallen, we're skating on wafer thin ice, Blackpool, Oldham, Rochdale, Tranmere, Accrington Stanley, Blackburn Rovers and several others exist more or less day to day or week to week and for most of them the PL might as well be on the moon.

Sadly I can see a time in the not too distant future where some of those clubs will have to merge to survive or simply disappear forever from the Football League. Football is still a pretty expensive way of spending an afternoon or evening compared to most other forms of entertainment and most 'fans' would rather subscribe to Sky and watch the PL from home. In truth it's not even Sky's fault or the Leagues. It's simply that the way people spend their money and free time has changed dramatically in the last twenty years or so and nothing will change it back.
I have said similar for years - but can you imagine Oldham fans supporting Rochdale or Tranmere fans supporting Blackburn.
Unfortunately the fans would rather have the clubs go out of business. Its to do with old time mentality. You would think younger fans would have a more worldly view but it doesn't seem to be.
I'm surprised division three and fours clubs exist today.

25Club restructuring. Empty Re: Club restructuring. on Sat Mar 07, 2020 8:18 am

Ten Bobsworth


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:For every BWFC or Leeds that has invested to accumulate and overstretched themselves there are more clubs who have invested heavily and it's paid off. For some, a push from the Championship to get into the Premiership has been too much and they've lost money but still have enough to carry on. For others - BWFC included in the past - it's given them the huge rewards of Premiership money, now bigger than ever. It's not the principle of investing heavily in a club that's wrong, it's investing badly and not knowing when to stop.
BWFC didn't gain 'the huge rewards of Premiership money' it gained wages spending power but continually lost money in trying to avoid the financial cliff edge that is the Championship.

BWFC fell off the cliff edge at the worst possible time when broadcasting incomes were set to double and FFP rules started to play a part in limiting the percentage of club revenue that could (legally) be spent on wages.

The Championship is a money pit in which every club loses money, except for a  few but only in years where they make gains on player sales sufficient to offset operating losses.

Lower down the leagues, clubs need businessmen willing to spend a bit to keep the clubs going. FGR is a special case in which taxpayer subsidies are diverted to further the ego trip of a tax-avoiding narcissistic 'planet saviour'.

26Club restructuring. Empty Re: Club restructuring. on Sat Mar 07, 2020 10:31 am

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:For every BWFC or Leeds that has invested to accumulate and overstretched themselves there are more clubs who have invested heavily and it's paid off. For some, a push from the Championship to get into the Premiership has been too much and they've lost money but still have enough to carry on. For others - BWFC included in the past - it's given them the huge rewards of Premiership money, now bigger than ever. It's not the principle of investing heavily in a club that's wrong, it's investing badly and not knowing when to stop.
BWFC didn't gain 'the huge rewards of Premiership money' it gained wages spending power but continually lost money in trying to avoid the financial cliff edge that is the Championship.
So the club didn't make bad investments in players not capable of keeping us in the Premiership?

27Club restructuring. Empty Re: Club restructuring. on Sat Mar 07, 2020 11:55 am

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:For every BWFC or Leeds that has invested to accumulate and overstretched themselves there are more clubs who have invested heavily and it's paid off. For some, a push from the Championship to get into the Premiership has been too much and they've lost money but still have enough to carry on. For others - BWFC included in the past - it's given them the huge rewards of Premiership money, now bigger than ever. It's not the principle of investing heavily in a club that's wrong, it's investing badly and not knowing when to stop.
BWFC didn't gain 'the huge rewards of Premiership money' it gained wages spending power but continually lost money in trying to avoid the financial cliff edge that is the Championship.
So the club didn't make bad investments in players not capable of keeping us in the Premiership?

No it didn't.

The squad we had was 'to good to go down'.

No other semi-competent manager other than Coyle would have got relegated with it.

The 'mistake' was an individual one from Phil Gartside not to sack Coyle before the January window, when instead of buying cover for the massively influential but injured Stuart Holden in midfield, Coyle instead blew all the budget millions on a forward with mental health issues who went on to play just two substitute appearances for the second half of the relegation season.

It wasn't Sordell's fault for being ill but it was clearly Coyle's fault for signing him without having him scouted out properly first, as he clearly was unfit to play for us from the time of the signing, so clearly that should have been picked up at the time if the background checks and medical were done before actually signing him.

Fwiw Coyle then went on to dispatch the club to our fate by the reckless spending on contracts (both wages and lengths) during the summer window in his pathetic attempt to get promoted at the first attempt, which ultimately ruined us financially.

Thanks Owen.

28Club restructuring. Empty Re: Club restructuring. on Sat Mar 07, 2020 12:09 pm

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Still sticks in my craw that both Stoke goals in that final game shouldn't have been. However, we really shouldn't have been in that position in the first place.

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