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Coronavirus - the political argument

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1Coronavirus - the political argument Empty Coronavirus - the political argument on Sun Apr 05 2020, 17:48

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
Feel free to argue to your hearts content on this thread about how good, bad or indifferently the governments been dealing with this and how good, bad or indifferently you, or the political party you support, thinks they are/believe they should have been doing.

2Coronavirus - the political argument Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument on Sun Apr 05 2020, 17:54

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Don't worry, Rudolf the tall white alien is back, and he brings hope. Shocked

3Coronavirus - the political argument Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument on Sun Apr 05 2020, 17:59

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
When will I learn not to click on a Bonce video??

4Coronavirus - the political argument Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument on Sun Apr 05 2020, 18:08

Norpig

Norpig
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
I lasted 2 minutes then turned off, he's barking mad  Laughing

5Coronavirus - the political argument Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument on Sun Apr 05 2020, 18:16

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Norpig wrote:I lasted 2 minutes then turned off, he's barking mad  Laughing
You missed the bit where he warns us about demons. Very important.

6Coronavirus - the political argument Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument on Sun Apr 05 2020, 18:19

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Natasha Whittam wrote:When will I learn not to click on a Bonce video??
You'll get there Nat.

7Coronavirus - the political argument Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument on Sun Apr 05 2020, 18:20

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
I'm currently adding up the days you have stolen from me.

8Coronavirus - the political argument Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument on Sun Apr 05 2020, 18:20

karlypants

karlypants
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
I’m surprised the video wasn’t about slippers. Laughing

9Coronavirus - the political argument Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument on Sun Apr 05 2020, 18:21

karlypants

karlypants
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Natasha Whittam wrote:I'm currently adding up the days you have stolen from me.
Are you adding them up so you can spend them with me after lockdown?  Twisted Evil

10Coronavirus - the political argument Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument on Sun Apr 05 2020, 18:29

xmiles

xmiles
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha
@Sluffy wrote:Feel free to argue to your hearts content on this thread about how good, bad or indifferently the governments been dealing with this and how good, bad or indifferently you, or the political party you support, thinks they are/believe they should have been doing.

Oh the irony! You open up a thread specifically to handle the political aspects of the current crisis and none of the comments is about politics.

If nothing changes I will try to think of something tomorrow. Smile

11Coronavirus - the political argument Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument on Sun Apr 05 2020, 18:30

karlypants

karlypants
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@xmiles wrote:
@Sluffy wrote:Feel free to argue to your hearts content on this thread about how good, bad or indifferently the governments been dealing with this and how good, bad or indifferently you, or the political party you support, thinks they are/believe they should have been doing.

Oh the irony! You open up a thread specifically to handle the political aspects of the current crisis and none of the comments is about politics.

If nothing changes I will try to think of something tomorrow. Smile  
Laughing

12Coronavirus - the political argument Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument on Tue Apr 07 2020, 12:54

karlypants

karlypants
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Left-wing online trolls target stricken Boris Johnson saying they 'hope he dies' and 'f*** Boris' while Labour mayor says he 'completely deserves' his intensive care coronavirus battle

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8195339/Left-wing-online-trolls-target-stricken-Boris-Johnson-saying-hope-dies.html

13Coronavirus - the political argument Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument on Tue Apr 07 2020, 13:27

Norpig

Norpig
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Party politics need to take a bask seat at the moment so everyone can focus on getting through this. 

We've never seen anything like this before so whoever is in charge regardless of party has a massive job on their hands at the moment and needs help from all sides. 

I'm not a fan of BoJo but to wish him dead is completely unacceptable.

14Coronavirus - the political argument Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument on Tue Apr 07 2020, 13:56

T.R.O.Y.


David Lee
David Lee
@karlypants wrote:Left-wing online trolls target stricken Boris Johnson saying they 'hope he dies' and 'f*** Boris' while Labour mayor says he 'completely deserves' his intensive care coronavirus battle
Unfortunately it’s not in the least surprising this.

The mans a father (soon to be again), it shouldn’t need pointing out what’s important at a time like this.

15Coronavirus - the political argument Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument on Tue Apr 07 2020, 15:04

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@Norpig wrote:Party politics need to take a bask seat at the moment so everyone can focus on getting through this. 

We've never seen anything like this before so whoever is in charge regardless of party has a massive job on their hands at the moment and needs help from all sides. 

I'm not a fan of BoJo but to wish him dead is completely unacceptable.

Absolutely.

It's never been the time for political point scoring and the time to hold an inquest of how the crisis had been handled should be done AFTER this thing as been beaten not during it.

I mean what's the point now really, it's not like we turn the clock back and do things perfect right from the start is it?  We can't change how we've got to the point where we are now - we simply have to make the best of it from now on.

I believe now Labour has finally sorted its leadership out, that we should form an all party government to move forward together.

Pointless people saying the NHS has been forgotten about since Labour was last in power - it's hardly been the major political issue they've fought all the general elections since and it's certainly not been the top issue of the public during all that time either.

As for being underprepared - yes we were and so to every other country in the world too.

As for how we handled it seems China wasn't exactly honest in reporting it from the start - see article -

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-52194356

...and that as a consequence we followed the wrong strategy to deal with it based on the Chinese figures we used to model what would happen here.

I don't think anyone is claiming everything the government has done has been perfect but saying they've deliberately put lives at risk and allowed people to die needlessly is plainly stupid and inflammatory.

There's a time and place for everything and fighting the virus comes first and holding to account comes after - or should do.

As for the social media nutjobs including a mayor ffs, they are an utter disgrace.

No one should wish his fellow man ill/dead simply because he doesn't have the same politics/religion/view as you do.

Sign of the times we live in though.

Get well soon Boris and so to everybody else in the same boat.

And continuing thanks to all those on the front line and those supporting them, helping us to get through all this.

16Coronavirus - the political argument Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument on Tue Apr 07 2020, 15:28

T.R.O.Y.


David Lee
David Lee
Very important to be able to spot the difference between ‘point scoring’ and proper scrutiny. I applaud those in the media who have continued to scrutinise the gaps in government policy (slow response, lack of tests, lack of PPE and herd immunity strategy). Keeping the focus on the right areas will hone our response and make sure we’re travelling in the right direction - it’s arguably never been more important.

17Coronavirus - the political argument Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument on Tue Apr 07 2020, 15:40

Cajunboy

Cajunboy
Andy Walker
Andy Walker
Get well soon Boris and everybody else who are suffering in many different ways as we fight this deadly virus.

18Coronavirus - the political argument Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument on Tue Apr 07 2020, 15:44

Cajunboy

Cajunboy
Andy Walker
Andy Walker
@Norpig wrote:Party politics need to take a bask seat at the moment so everyone can focus on getting through this. 

We've never seen anything like this before so whoever is in charge regardless of party has a massive job on their hands at the moment and needs help from all sides. 

I'm not a fan of BoJo but to wish him dead is completely unacceptable.
Totally agree.

I'm not a fan of Jeremy Corbyn but I wouldn't wish him any harm.

19Coronavirus - the political argument Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument on Tue Apr 07 2020, 16:08

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@T.R.O.Y. wrote:Very important to be able to spot the difference between ‘point scoring’ and proper scrutiny. I applaud those in the media who have continued to scrutinise the gaps in government policy (slow response, lack of tests, lack of PPE and herd immunity strategy). Keeping the focus on the right areas will hone our response and make sure we’re travelling in the right direction - it’s arguably never been more important.

Do you honestly believe that the government wouldn't have change how it responded without the media asking the question?

Or ramped up the testing and trying to get sufficient PPE for front line staff - they still are falling short even though the media have been on their backs for the last fortnight?

Or change the strategy from 'herd' to 'containment'?

That's just utter bollocks.

All that would have been forced to have happened even if the media had been in lockdown as per China's media.

Nobody's saying the government had got it right at every turn - or even now - but the time for laying any blame is AFTER the war on the virus has been done - not now.

As I say I believe there should be an all party lead on this - lets fight this thing together.  There's simply no point bitching over spilt milk - it won't change anything.

As for the journalists - most of them have a job to file stories for their employers, most of whom depend on advertisements for their income.  It's in their own interests to keep such stories alive - but as I say do you or anyone else really believe it's been a political decision to deliberately deprive staff of protective clothing or condemn people to death because of some sort of Conservative agenda to win the General Election in 2024 - that's just madness thinking.

Report the facts by all means but now isn't the time for any media campaigns and political game playing.

There's time enough for that after the virus is beaten.

I also don't think it was any coincidence that Johnson had invited all Party leaders to join together on the day the Labour finally got shut of Corbyn and move forward together -

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8187081/Boris-Johnson-writes-leaders-opposition-parties-invite-Number-10.html

We should ALL be pulling in the same direction to beat this now and argue over it afterwards.

Or should be.

20Coronavirus - the political argument Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument on Tue Apr 07 2020, 17:32

T.R.O.Y.


David Lee
David Lee
I believe that the media influence government policy, and both the research and investigations of correspondents helps to fill gaps in the government’s own knowledge banks given how quickly this crisis is moving.

So my opinion is that scrutinising the government properly has helped to speed up issue recognition and resolution. It’s nothing do with blame or otherwise, it’s influencing to try and keep on the right path.

I’ve never suggested anything of the sort that governments are deliberately holding back PPE? Why are you taking about that?

21Coronavirus - the political argument Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument on Tue Apr 07 2020, 17:55

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
You honestly believe the media influenced government policy and they've kept them on the right path since?

Really???

Ok, you're entitled to believe whatever you want.

People believe 5G is causing all this and that's why they've been burning down the masts - doesn't mean they're right about it though.

I tend to believe real life events bring about the required actions not media political sniping - such as the constant issue with PPE - yes we know we haven't got it right for the front line staff - don't they think the government DIDN'T KNOW that - but how is ongoing point scoring by them going to change anything - most of the world is scrambling about for PPE equipment for their own front line staff and there is only a finite supply at anyone time?

Anyway for what it's worth I've always been apolitical and think particularly at times like this we should all be doing our bests to beat this and hold a stewards enquiry after the race has finished - and not during it.

Perhaps I hope too much from my fellow man at times, unfortunately.


Fwiw also I've never said the government were holding back PPE - you've clearly read into something that simply was never there.

22Coronavirus - the political argument Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument on Tue Apr 07 2020, 18:46

T.R.O.Y.


David Lee
David Lee
Please stop trying to spin what im saying. I’m taking about the reporting of facts, not ‘political point scoring’. One of the strongest proponents of this has been Piers Morgan, so I think that goes to show how apolitical this issue is.

I think the media (and public opinion in general) has a sway on political policy. If you disagree, great let’s leave it at that. Please don’t try and paint my views alongside nutters who believe 5G has caused this, it’s condescending/rude and nothing more

Here’s what you accused me of on PPE, I’ve never said anything even close to that. So don’t know what you’re getting at:

@Sluffy wrote:
do you or anyone else really believe it's been a political decision to deliberately deprive staff of protective clothing or condemn people to death because of some sort of Conservative agenda to win the General Election in 2024 - that's just madness thinking.

23Coronavirus - the political argument Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument on Tue Apr 07 2020, 21:02

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
I'm not spinning anything.

I don't follow Morgan or anyone else thank you, I think for myself, I don't need social media 'influencers', to do that for me unlike many it seems.

If you want to believe the media is only "reporting the facts" then fine - why then do they go on about the same thing like PPE then day after day after day for weeks?  

PPE can't magically appear once it's known there are shortages - there's obviously going to be a delay between the need and being able to satisfy it.  Maybe it is because they've got column inches/air time to fill, advertising spaces to sell and certain socio-political customers/consumers to satisfy perhaps?

As for what you quote me on above, it was simply in reply to you -

@T.R.O.Y. wrote:Very important to be able to spot the difference between ‘point scoring’ and proper scrutiny. I applaud those in the media who have continued to scrutinise the gaps in government policy (slow response, lack of tests, lack of PPE and herd immunity strategy). Keeping the focus on the right areas will hone our response and make sure we’re travelling in the right direction - it’s arguably never been more important.

Nowhere have I ever suggested the government had stocks of PPE they where holding back from the front line or something - that's your imagination making that up!

What I was saying is that clearly were totally unprepared for the relatively tsunami of need once the virus hit, which they hadn't prepared for because the medical advise they were following was modelled on the 'questionable' data from Chinese outbreak.

Of course we should learn what went wrong and why but now is clearly not the time - maybe it is for you though?

We really need to park politics for now, all come together and help beat this - plenty time for recriminations afterwards.

As for being rude/condescending you make me laugh!

If you really believe the media keeps any government in check is about as believable as 5G being to blame for coronavirus, to me.

America's got the freest media in the world and they've ended up with a Trump Administration since 2016 - certainly kept him "travelling in the right direction" hasn't it!!!

24Coronavirus - the political argument Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument on Tue Apr 07 2020, 21:26

T.R.O.Y.


David Lee
David Lee
Sluffy - it's almost as if you don't read the posts properly before you respond. Almost your entire reply is incorrect.

@Sluffy wrote:If you want to believe the media is only "reporting the facts" then fine - why then do they go on about the same thing like PPE then day after day after day for weeks?  

Here's what was actually said:

@T.R.O.Y. wrote:I’m taking about the reporting of facts, not ‘political point scoring’. 

You're either spinning the above, or you haven't read it - because that sentence does not say, 'the media is only reporting the facts'.




@Sluffy wrote:Nowhere have I ever suggested the government had stocks of PPE they where holding back from the front line or something - that's your imagination making that up!

I never said you did? I was questioning the below, where you ask me if i believe it was a political decision to deprive staff of PPE - to be crystal for you (again): no I don't and (more importantly) where have you got that from?

@Sluffy wrote:but as I say do you or anyone else really believe it's been a political decision to deliberately deprive staff of protective clothing or condemn people to death because of some sort of Conservative agenda to win the General Election in 2024 - that's just madness thinking.




You even somehow get on to media freedom suggesting a free media has no impact on government policy - Trump and the US used as an example. 

It's an incredibly tenuous link to my point, but if anything it proves it. 

In every case (that I can think of) an authoritarian government has cracked down on press freedoms - hence a more liberal society is more likely to have media input and influence over the political landscape.




Final question from me, you were too emotionally invested to discuss this with me before - hence I got banned. Why are you suddenly so desperate to get into this?

25Coronavirus - the political argument Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument on Tue Apr 07 2020, 22:28

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@T.R.O.Y. wrote:
You're either spinning the above, or you haven't read it - because that sentence does not say, 'the media is only reporting the facts'.

Well if they are reporting more than the facts they must ergo be making comment to - and that being political comment.

Political comment obvious is influenced from which side of the fence you stand and therefore must me be point scoring either for or against the point you are writing about.

@T.R.O.Y. wrote:I never said you did? I was questioning the below, where you ask me if i believe it was a political decision to deprive staff of PPE - to be crystal for you (again): no I don't and (more importantly) where have you got that from?

Eh?

I never said it was a political it was a political decision to deprive staff of PPE, or that they had stocks they had and hadn't distributed them - all that is your imagination of what you think I said.

What I was simply saying is that the government didn't politically NOT order PPE (think being part of the EU procurement order) simply because of a strategy they had to win the 2024 general election - as was what some people firmly believed had happened and said so on here.

You've clearly interpreted what I said in a way that was never meant.


@T.R.O.Y. wrote:You even somehow get on to media freedom suggesting a free media has no impact on government policy - Trump and the US used as an example. 

It's an incredibly tenuous link to my point, but if anything it proves it. 

In every case (that I can think of) an authoritarian government has cracked down on press freedoms - hence a more liberal society is more likely to have media input and influence over the political landscape.

Hahaha.

Yes it most prove it because all the governments in the free world are doing exactly what the media wants of them!!!

How idiotic of you in even suggesting that???

Most media are 'owned' by wealthy men such as Murdoch - I'm sure HM Government are as willing to dance to their tune as Trump, Macron or Merkel are - which non of them are!

It is good to have a free press and to express opinions - nothing wrong at all in that.  What I am saying is that sometimes 'less is better' - this crisis right now being one of those times.


@T.R.O.Y. wrote:
Final question from me, you were too emotionally invested to discuss this with me before - hence I got banned. Why are you suddenly so desperate to get into this?

What makes you think I was being emotional on the thread for just my own benefit?

Further more if you KNEW I was that emotional about the thread then why did you deliberately and knowingly carried on arguing with me until it became quite clear to everyone you were never going to stop?

Anyway I'm not desperate to 'get into this' at all.

I'm not able to make the political parties, media, or even posters on here to all come together and be united in fighting this first and foremost and learn from what went wrong afterwards and there's clearly only one way you understand about letting something drop on a highly personal and sensitive thread to some, knowing you can say whatever you wanted to elsewhere on the forum.

It should never have got to that stage but clearly you had deliberately and calculatedly, decided to "get into this" on a thread you KNEW was causing distress to others - even if you thought that was only me!

If that's not point scoring, trolling and making things personal from you, then I don't know what is.

Not your finest moment.

26Coronavirus - the political argument Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument on Tue Apr 07 2020, 23:23

T.R.O.Y.


David Lee
David Lee
How did I know you were too emotionally invested to discuss it with me? - because that’s what you wrote on the message when you banned me.

So again I ask, how is this different? You ban me on one thread from talking about politics because it’s too personal for you - but spend half an evening on this thread talking about it?

27Coronavirus - the political argument Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument on Wed Apr 08 2020, 00:31

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@T.R.O.Y. wrote:How did I know you were too emotionally invested to discuss it with me? - because that’s what you wrote on the message when you banned me.

So again I ask, how is this different? You ban me on one thread from talking about politics because it’s too personal for you - but spend half an evening on this thread talking about it?

Because I'd made it abundantly clear throughout that particular thread, here's just one example directed directly to you -

@Sluffy wrote:
T.R.O.Y wrote:
@Sluffy wrote:There's a few decent people about and I'm sure some will do the right thing - unfortunately though I expect most won't - just look at Wheater etc, striking for their wages (which they knew full well they would get in the end) when the club was broke and staff were having to go to foodbanks to eat,

Why didn't the millionaire Wheater dip in his pocket and do the right thing rather than getting pissed up down the pub again?


Why can't you and nutjob grasp that this is bigger than your football prejudices and put away your pathetic point scoring until this thing has been beaten?

Put away your fishing rod.

I've asked you countless times not to start arguments on THIS particular thread but it seems you can't accept this straightforward, unambiguous and poignant request.

Leave your issues/point scoring with me OFF here.

Read Cajun and Johnny's posts above - that's what this thread is about not you or the other nutjob wanting to piss all over it for your own amusement, self-gratification.

I can't make it any clearer or simpler to you.

If you can't accept that like everyone else is, then go post some place else.

You made it personal to keep on doing so - presumably for your amusement at trying to wind me up.

You made a complete and utter dick of yourself instead.

To be frank I've never cared what you or anyone else on the internet thinks about me but I did care that it was distressing others by what you were deliberately doing.

You obviously weren't going to stop and so I put an end to it.

I'd do exactly the same again if I had to.

Without hesitation.

You are a good poster and I'm happy to see you back but the sites bigger than you scoring points off me.

Shame you seem to be incapable of accepting that.

28Coronavirus - the political argument Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument on Wed Apr 08 2020, 08:16

T.R.O.Y.


David Lee
David Lee
Yes that post was to mock you a bit - thought you could handle a joke. All I did was post my opinions on the thread as any other poster had been throughout - Ten Bob even got on to Dale Vince somehow but that’s fine with you because it’s an opinion you like.

One last time anyway, how is this thread different?

29Coronavirus - the political argument Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument on Wed Apr 08 2020, 12:02

gloswhite

gloswhite
Guðni Bergsson
Guðni Bergsson
I haven't bothered reading this last string of 'I said, you said', but what I will say is that I believe both of you have valid points. The government was slow on the uptake, both with wrong information from the likes of China, lack of PPE etc, because some countries, (Germany/China), who produce such things, had the vision to lock down the export and supply to other countries initially.
I also believe we were slow to lock down and Boris expected people to be sensible rather than flood the parks and public areas on sunny days. (Boris, when you're working with the great British public, don't give them them any wriggle room). I've never seen so many runners and dog walkers.
What I do find a little worrying is that now that Boris is in dock, there doesn't seem to be anyone prepared to take hold of the reins. I have always liked Raab, but he's coming across like a rabbit in the headlights, even without the press all piling in on him for what they see as indecision.
I agree with TROY that actions of the current situation should be analysed, but as Sluffy says, there's a time and place, and I feel that it should be once we have come out of lock down and had time to see what the situation is. The political point scoring isn't being carried out by many, although I was disappointed to hear Jess Philips and Angela Rayner on TV the other day, both launching straight into what was wrong, very very little about what had been achieved. 
The Chinese managed to let the people of Wutan out after 11 weeks, but that was with some serious lock downs that many over here would riot over. I think many of you will be joining the likes of Cajun and myself who are in for the long haul of 12 weeks, and then of course we oldies/vulnerable will be the last ones to be allowed to circulate freely, so it wouldn't surprise me to see that 12 weeks extended.

30Coronavirus - the political argument Empty Re: Coronavirus - the political argument on Wed Apr 08 2020, 12:12

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@T.R.O.Y. wrote:Yes that post was to mock you a bit - thought you could handle a joke. All I did was post my opinions on the thread as any other poster had been throughout - Ten Bob even got on to Dale Vince somehow but that’s fine with you because it’s an opinion you like.

One last time anyway, how is this thread different?

You really don't know???

It keeps arguments off the one where people could talk about their hopes and fears free from such shite.  People who are at genuinely at risk of dying, or who have loved ones who are if they catch this.

As for Dale Vince I have no interest at all in him, no one other than Bob has, obviously it is his bee in his bonnet - but it would never lead to an argument let alone an endless one as such.

I don't expect the thread to be gloomy and reverential completely but I hoped it would be respectful and compassionate towards everyone who was facing the virus knowing if they caught it had a realistic chance of killing them/their mother(bonce), brother(me), etc.

It was to deal with issues in the frighteningly real world at the moment and not yet another thread for some to play out their internet issues yet again for their own personal amusement and fuck everybody else.

This really shouldn't have been needed to be spelt out to you or anyone else.

It says so much that it did have to in your case.

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