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Bolton Nuts » BWFC » Wandering Minds » Black Lives Matter

Black Lives Matter

+13
sunlight
Boggersbelief
Keegan
BoltonTillIDie
xmiles
Natasha Whittam
finlaymcdanger
Sluffy
karlypants
RangersDave
Cajunboy
okocha
gloswhite
17 posters

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81Black Lives Matter - Page 5 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter Tue Jun 16 2020, 13:27

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

Thanks for the insight, no wonder that there's such a massive and widespread groundswell of protesting against what seems like institutional racism by the police in America.

I've actually had dealings twice with American policemen whilst on holiday there, the first when I was pulled over for 'swerving' on an motorway and the second for speeding.

In the UK once you are on a motor way you basically drive in a straight line and any traffic joining it 'merges' into it from an entrance filter lane adjoining it for a third of a mile or so.  Seems in America that's not the case and the joining traffic stays in their 'lane' and the existing motorway traffics lane dog legs accordingly to accommodate it.  I not knowing this was simply holding my lane when all of a sudden vehicles suddenly 'cut' into it causing me to swerve to avoid it.

It just so happens there was a police car behind me who pulled me over.  Once he could see I was a tourist who had made a simple and unknowing mistake he became very helpful and even give directions and guided me part way to our destination, Niagara Falls.

The second for speeding was me rushing along a road (a three carriage motorway type road) to get to the next town (tens of miles away) to find a motel for the night, as it was late and dark with no one about.  I think the speed limit was 60mph but I was doing 70 (which is the speed limit over here) and maybe pushing 80 on the down hill sections.  I'm not making excuses, I was in the wrong but there was only my vehicle on the road, I never passed anyone, the road was that empty and I don't even recall seeing much if any traffic traveling in the opposite direction.  Anyway out of nowhere I could see a car in the distance and could see it was gaining on me so guessed that it might be a policeman - and it was.

Again after finding out I was a tourist and clearly just looking to find a motel for the night for me and the family, was friendly and helpful and didn't give me a ticket.

I guess like everything there are good and bad people in every job and maybe I was traveling in areas where the colour of your skin was not such a big issue and crime wasn't a big problem and so the policemen I met weren't on edge or something and more relaxed in dealing with me? I was also fully compliant and respectful to both officers also and totally accepted I was in the wrong both times - don't know if that also helped in how they dealt with me also, maybe it did with some of the examples you have given above about how others are frightened of being stopped by the police?

Obviously in the twenty-first century the colour of your skin should not be an issue and until we are able to get to that point then I guess we can't claim to be yet civilised.

Hopefully though that day will come soon, here's hoping anyway.

82Black Lives Matter - Page 5 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter Tue Jun 16 2020, 14:42

gloswhite

gloswhite
Guðni Bergsson
Guðni Bergsson

Keegan wrote:Did you know that there is video of a white fellow wearing a mask and gloves, using a hammer to break the windows of store where BLM protesters were? His face wasn't completely covered, so his eyes and forehead were visible. His ex-wife identified him as a Police Officer, but his superiors denied it was him. The challenge is far greater than you might imagine!
I wasn't aware of this, but it seems that this kind of behavior is far more usual than many think.
When I was serving in Germany, (circa 1982), 5 of us went on a liaison visit to an American site. We were there for a couple of days, and a black Sergeant looked after us. A really nice chap. 
The first night we all came back from a boozy night out, including the sergeant, to the bar that was just on the camp. After a few minutes he said he had to leave. When we asked why, he said that the guys in the corner would beat him up for mixing with white men, and if we tried to stop them, all hell would break loose. There were two bit fat hayseeds sat there watching us. We told him to stay, but he was off before we could do or say anymore.
Seeing all these stories coming to light in America doesn't surprise me whatsoever. Its about time the Police forces were cleaned up.

83Black Lives Matter - Page 5 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter Wed Jun 17 2020, 11:30

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Wise words.

84Black Lives Matter - Page 5 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter Thu Jun 18 2020, 12:06

Guest


Guest

Taking the knee is from Game of Thrones apparently, still shocked by just how ignorant/thick the current cabinet are. Although given the cabinet was selected based on blind loyalty to a flawed Brexit ideology, maybe i shouldn't be.

85Black Lives Matter - Page 5 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter Thu Jun 18 2020, 12:15

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

I've never watched an episode of GoT in my life, ditto an American Football game. I couldn't name a single player past or present.

What's your point? That a British MP should know everything about American fantasy thrillers and an American sport?

86Black Lives Matter - Page 5 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter Thu Jun 18 2020, 12:25

Guest


Guest

My point is that as Foreign Secretary I expect him to know more about arguably the single most important cultural movement of his time in office. What sort of standards are we supposed to hold these fools to?

87Black Lives Matter - Page 5 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter Thu Jun 18 2020, 14:27

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

T.R.O.Y. wrote:My point is that as Foreign Secretary I expect him to know more about arguably the single most important cultural movement of his time in office. What sort of standards are we supposed to hold these fools to?

Surprised he didn't seem to know/was wrongly briefed but is race such a big issue in the UK as it is in America?

I know there were big demonstrations throughout the country and issues around statues (and now business and institutions - Greene King and Lloyds of London) of people who we now know to have behaved wrongly compared to our present day values - some several generations later, but how much of that is genuine grievances and how much was reflective of American solidarity?

I would guess the vast majority of UK protesters were under the age of thirty but UK law has outlawed racial discrimination since the 1965 Race Relations Act - some 55 years ago.

Fwiw I've seen first hand over the years people play the race 'card' to get away with all sorts that would have resulted in disciplinaries/terminations for others, so it has had some significant bearing on our society's behaviour over the years.

I've also, rather bizarrely been subject to a form of racial discrimination myself when I was the only white guest at my mates Muslim wedding and the staff and owners of the reception seemed to have some sort of an issue with that.  All ended well though.

Yes more could be done to make life equal for all but similarly racism is simply not a one way street and I've seen people looking after their own (if I can put it like that) rather than be fair and equal to all.

At the end of the day people judge things from their own prospective, some are brought up in racist family's and thus become the next generation of racists themselves - and I'm mean that equally to blacks and whites - and every other ethnicity out there.

I don't know what the answer is, education can and will help but even if everything was fair and equal to everyone, there will be some who will always harbour racist thoughts, feelings and even sometimes, actions.

88Black Lives Matter - Page 5 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter Thu Jun 18 2020, 14:51

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

I would like to think that Jane Elliott's point about there only being one race - the human race - is possible but she is an idealist given that it isn't a level playing field. The human race certainly needs to act as a collective and make global decisions if we are to maintain our impact on the planet at a sustainable level because it's clear it won't work with the "nations" model which focuses on short term self-interest rather than the future of the species - which could be wiped out in as little as a hundred years from now.

89Black Lives Matter - Page 5 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter Thu Jun 18 2020, 14:58

Norpig

Norpig
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Racism is still an issue in this country, the Windrush scandal was only a couple of years ago and that was a stain on our country.

90Black Lives Matter - Page 5 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter Thu Jun 18 2020, 14:59

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

wanderlust wrote:I would like to think that Jane Elliott's point about there only being one race - the human race - is possible but she is an idealist given that it isn't a level playing field. The human race certainly needs to act as a collective and make global decisions if we are to maintain our impact on the planet at a sustainable level because it's clear it won't work with the "nations" model which focuses on short term self-interest rather than the future of the species - which could be wiped out in as little as a hundred years from now.
I intend to be cryogenically frozen. Should I cancel? Shocked 

Lusty, give me a little hope.

91Black Lives Matter - Page 5 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter Thu Jun 18 2020, 15:30

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

Norpig wrote:Racism is still an issue in this country, the Windrush scandal was only a couple of years ago and that was a stain on our country.

I never really understood what Windrush was all about?

I understood it was to do with allowing citizens from the west indies 'colonies' we had at that time to come and live in this country soon after the war (the first boat arriving being the Windrush) and the problem only arose a few years ago when a number of people who had arrived on that basis - and were not required to have registered their arrival in anyway, suddenly found themselves at risk of deportation/loss of employment for being an 'illegal immigrant'.

It didn't appear to me to be racist in any way but rather some major institutional cock up that had arisen over the years with the changing of colonies into independent countries and thus having different entry requirements and registrations.

The only proof anyone had seemed to be the ships boarding card registrations and regrettably those seemed to have been destroyed in the recent past prior to the 'scandal' - irrc the action being taken by the Labour government of the day.

Maybe I've understood it wrongly but as I say it never seemed an intended racism event, indeed were there not also white Canadians also caught up with the same thing?

92Black Lives Matter - Page 5 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter Thu Jun 18 2020, 15:49

gloswhite

gloswhite
Guðni Bergsson
Guðni Bergsson

As I understood it Sluffy, this was an unofficial policy to harden up the governments acceptance of immigrants, in line with the thoughts at that time. It was petty, unfair, and ineffective, whilst causing so many problems for the people who came here. I think it was Theresa May who came up with the plan, or at least its implementation, when she was Home Secretary. Of course, it crashed down around their ears, but not without a great deal of suffering. Whether it was racist or not I couldn't say, but would think it was just a doomed political stance.

93Black Lives Matter - Page 5 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter Thu Jun 18 2020, 16:55

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

The thing with Windrush is not that West Indians were "being allowed" to resettle in the UK after the war, but rather that the UK had a labour shortage in certain sectors and advertised in the Jamaican press for workers to come to the UK - even offering to pay their fare over here and resettlement costs.

Ironic then that those who answered our call in a time a need were treated so badly.

I would add that a goodly proportion of them served in the British Army during the war and came back to the UK to re-enlist. Should have been given the heroes welcome that they deserved.



Last edited by wanderlust on Thu Jun 18 2020, 17:46; edited 1 time in total

94Black Lives Matter - Page 5 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter Thu Jun 18 2020, 17:25

okocha

okocha
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf

The Home Office under Theresa May developed a hostile environment policy designed to make life difficult for migrants so that they would leave voluntarily.  Set a tone that has been taken up with relish by many Tories and Ukip supporters.

95Black Lives Matter - Page 5 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter Thu Jun 18 2020, 19:40

Guest


Guest

Sluff - not saying you have suggested this, so please don’t take it as an attack. But have you read any studies that show racism isn’t a problem in the UK? 

I don’t want to get into posting a tonne of links to studies, as they’re not difficult to find. But systemic racism is prominent across society, this manifests itself in a lack of opportunities and additional negative scrutiny. It’s not limited to America, and we need to be listening to those who suffer it, as it’s impossible for us to understand it.

Is my view.

96Black Lives Matter - Page 5 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter Thu Jun 18 2020, 22:53

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

T.R.O.Y. wrote:Sluff - not saying you have suggested this, so please don’t take it as an attack. But have you read any studies that show racism isn’t a problem in the UK? 

I don’t want to get into posting a tonne of links to studies, as they’re not difficult to find. But systemic racism is prominent across society, this manifests itself in a lack of opportunities and additional negative scrutiny. It’s not limited to America, and we need to be listening to those who suffer it, as it’s impossible for us to understand it.

Is my view.

What I'm saying is the we don't live in a perfect world and that there is good and bad in most people, irrespective of colour creed or religion.

I've no doubt racism does exist in our society - but my point is that it isn't just confined between whites to blacks, I've seen it from blacks to whites more than I would like to.  I've also seen it applied to and from Asians from both Blacks and whites also.

I've no idea of how to rid the world of such tribalism, education obviously would be a start but you have to want to change to bring about changes in behaviour and that also means changes in the accepted 'norms' of the family and community you live in.

I know it's not exactly the same thing but I personally know two separate and unrelated Asian women whose lives have been turned upside down because they refused to marry the man their family had chosen for them.  My point being it takes guts to stand up and say this is unacceptable when your family/community/religion tells you how you should behave.

If you are born and brought up in a right-wing, fascist, broken home, you tend to be raised with those beliefs being ingrained in you.  If you are brought up in an extreme Muslim family then you tend to think that way too.

We still have a religious divide between Catholics and Protestants in NI and the Good Friday Agreement was made over twenty years ago!

I don't have the answers to stop racism but I do understand that it can't be achieved until and unless the family/community/religion people are immersed in from birth changes to wanting people to be treated fairly and equally - not only because of their colour but also because of their sex, religion and everything else that sets us apart from others.

A few marches and bending on one knee isn't going to be anything like enough to change ingrained and reinforced beliefs that many, many people have and who pass them on to their children to think and believe likewise to.

One day we will get there but I simply can't see it being anytime soon.

97Black Lives Matter - Page 5 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter Thu Jun 18 2020, 23:46

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Societal attitudes can and have changed and historically it's often a piece of symbolism such as taking the knee that gives people - especially younger people - something to identify with.
Symbolism can be a powerful catalyst and motivator like the Welsh wearing leeks on their helmets when battling the Saxons. 
Being brought up in the 50s with those post Victorian morality and attitudes to life, it was a revelation when the hippy movement - a bunch of apparent badly behaved middle class tosspots on acid - kicked off a sequence of societal change such as never seen before - rallying round a peace sign and snowflake concepts like flower power and self-enlightenment. Laughable now, but in reality it was powerful symbolism and brought about significant legal changes, bolstered assorted rights movements and stopped wars. The freedoms won facilitated change in most areas of Western society including culturally and socially.
I personally won't take the Black Lives matter thing lightly as it's an opportunity to remove one of the main barriers to the dialogue, compromise and consent that will be needed to achieve the global cooperation we'll need to face the threats ahead. But for many young people, it's simply a matter of making their world a better place - and a world without the stress, trauma, injustice, inequality and inhumanity of racism would indeed be a better place - and a place better equipped to face the future collectively.
It'll be interesting to see if BLM results in any real change. I'm really hoping so.

98Black Lives Matter - Page 5 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter Fri Jun 19 2020, 06:44

Guest


Guest

Sluffy - Uk racism is systemic, the movement is about reaching equality in society. It’s addressing why having a foreign name makes it less likely to get responses on a job application or why black students attainment is more likely to be underestimated, and their levels drop over years in education. 

Systemic racism is not suffered by white people in this country. Simple as that.

You may not think the campaign will be effective, but what are you basing that on? can you name any event that has done more to raise awareness of these issues?



Last edited by T.R.O.Y. on Fri Jun 19 2020, 09:11; edited 1 time in total

99Black Lives Matter - Page 5 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter Fri Jun 19 2020, 08:45

Keegan

Keegan
Moderator
Moderator

Let's talk a little bit about what racism is.
racism
prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized. 


I haven't had the pleasure of visiting the UK although it is on my bucket list to see The Wanderers play at the UoB Stadium before I kick the afore-mentioned bucket. I am willing to wager, however, that people of my ethnicity are not the majority. The whole point of racism is to oppress and marginalize others who are of a different race. In an environment where black people are not in a position of power by virtue of being the majority or able to marginalize another race of people, they cannot be racist. What has been mistaken for racism, is actually resentment - understandable, given historical circumstances. 


I recall stories in a British newspaper/s about two young footballers who had not yet broken into the first team of their club/s. Both players bought houses for their dear Mums. The white footballer was praised for his earnest gesture and was an awesome lad, while the black player was vilified for spending obscene amounts on property despite not even being a first teamer. It seems to me that there is a resentment among some influencers when poc are successful. Obviously I can't say all, but one is one too many in this case. 


There is a curious phenomenon across the pond, in the media. A case in point is the situation in which a black man was going down the road to get himself a burger. He heard cries for help and saw a white woman frantically trying to escape a house. He helped her and the police was brought in. It turned out that the woman had been held captive in the basement of the house with another woman for several years, as sex slaves. You would think that the black man would have been hailed as a hero - but the TV report ended with the fact that the rescuer had a criminal record, for drug possession. Can you think of a good reason why that needed to have been mentioned? Systemic racism decreed that the hero had to be shown in a negative light, because he was black. I'm sorry for my frequent presence and contributions to this topic, but that's me in my avatar and I'd like to think that my life matters.

https://forum.boltonnuts.co.uk

100Black Lives Matter - Page 5 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter Fri Jun 19 2020, 10:20

Norpig

Norpig
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

We value your input on this Keegan as as far as i know you are the only black person on this forum (if i'm wrong on that then i'm sorry). We will never understand as white people what black people have to deal with.

I was watching the news only last night and they had a young black man who had been stopped by the Police around 20 times recently. He had videoed one of his stops and the copper actually said he had pulled him over just because he was a young black man! That is systemic or institutional racism which ever way you look at it.

If you ever do make it to the Unibol you are more than welcome to come and sit next to me in the Lofthouse Stand  Very Happy

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