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Black Lives Matter

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91Black Lives Matter - Page 4 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Thu Jun 18 2020, 15:30

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@Norpig wrote:Racism is still an issue in this country, the Windrush scandal was only a couple of years ago and that was a stain on our country.

I never really understood what Windrush was all about?

I understood it was to do with allowing citizens from the west indies 'colonies' we had at that time to come and live in this country soon after the war (the first boat arriving being the Windrush) and the problem only arose a few years ago when a number of people who had arrived on that basis - and were not required to have registered their arrival in anyway, suddenly found themselves at risk of deportation/loss of employment for being an 'illegal immigrant'.

It didn't appear to me to be racist in any way but rather some major institutional cock up that had arisen over the years with the changing of colonies into independent countries and thus having different entry requirements and registrations.

The only proof anyone had seemed to be the ships boarding card registrations and regrettably those seemed to have been destroyed in the recent past prior to the 'scandal' - irrc the action being taken by the Labour government of the day.

Maybe I've understood it wrongly but as I say it never seemed an intended racism event, indeed were there not also white Canadians also caught up with the same thing?

92Black Lives Matter - Page 4 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Thu Jun 18 2020, 15:49

gloswhite

gloswhite
Guðni Bergsson
Guðni Bergsson
As I understood it Sluffy, this was an unofficial policy to harden up the governments acceptance of immigrants, in line with the thoughts at that time. It was petty, unfair, and ineffective, whilst causing so many problems for the people who came here. I think it was Theresa May who came up with the plan, or at least its implementation, when she was Home Secretary. Of course, it crashed down around their ears, but not without a great deal of suffering. Whether it was racist or not I couldn't say, but would think it was just a doomed political stance.

93Black Lives Matter - Page 4 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Thu Jun 18 2020, 16:55

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
The thing with Windrush is not that West Indians were "being allowed" to resettle in the UK after the war, but rather that the UK had a labour shortage in certain sectors and advertised in the Jamaican press for workers to come to the UK - even offering to pay their fare over here and resettlement costs.

Ironic then that those who answered our call in a time a need were treated so badly.

I would add that a goodly proportion of them served in the British Army during the war and came back to the UK to re-enlist. Should have been given the heroes welcome that they deserved.



Last edited by wanderlust on Thu Jun 18 2020, 17:46; edited 1 time in total

94Black Lives Matter - Page 4 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Thu Jun 18 2020, 17:25

okocha

okocha
Andy Walker
Andy Walker
The Home Office under Theresa May developed a hostile environment policy designed to make life difficult for migrants so that they would leave voluntarily.  Set a tone that has been taken up with relish by many Tories and Ukip supporters.

95Black Lives Matter - Page 4 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Thu Jun 18 2020, 19:40

T.R.O.Y.


Nicolas Anelka
Nicolas Anelka
Sluff - not saying you have suggested this, so please don’t take it as an attack. But have you read any studies that show racism isn’t a problem in the UK? 

I don’t want to get into posting a tonne of links to studies, as they’re not difficult to find. But systemic racism is prominent across society, this manifests itself in a lack of opportunities and additional negative scrutiny. It’s not limited to America, and we need to be listening to those who suffer it, as it’s impossible for us to understand it.

Is my view.

96Black Lives Matter - Page 4 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Thu Jun 18 2020, 22:53

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@T.R.O.Y. wrote:Sluff - not saying you have suggested this, so please don’t take it as an attack. But have you read any studies that show racism isn’t a problem in the UK? 

I don’t want to get into posting a tonne of links to studies, as they’re not difficult to find. But systemic racism is prominent across society, this manifests itself in a lack of opportunities and additional negative scrutiny. It’s not limited to America, and we need to be listening to those who suffer it, as it’s impossible for us to understand it.

Is my view.

What I'm saying is the we don't live in a perfect world and that there is good and bad in most people, irrespective of colour creed or religion.

I've no doubt racism does exist in our society - but my point is that it isn't just confined between whites to blacks, I've seen it from blacks to whites more than I would like to.  I've also seen it applied to and from Asians from both Blacks and whites also.

I've no idea of how to rid the world of such tribalism, education obviously would be a start but you have to want to change to bring about changes in behaviour and that also means changes in the accepted 'norms' of the family and community you live in.

I know it's not exactly the same thing but I personally know two separate and unrelated Asian women whose lives have been turned upside down because they refused to marry the man their family had chosen for them.  My point being it takes guts to stand up and say this is unacceptable when your family/community/religion tells you how you should behave.

If you are born and brought up in a right-wing, fascist, broken home, you tend to be raised with those beliefs being ingrained in you.  If you are brought up in an extreme Muslim family then you tend to think that way too.

We still have a religious divide between Catholics and Protestants in NI and the Good Friday Agreement was made over twenty years ago!

I don't have the answers to stop racism but I do understand that it can't be achieved until and unless the family/community/religion people are immersed in from birth changes to wanting people to be treated fairly and equally - not only because of their colour but also because of their sex, religion and everything else that sets us apart from others.

A few marches and bending on one knee isn't going to be anything like enough to change ingrained and reinforced beliefs that many, many people have and who pass them on to their children to think and believe likewise to.

One day we will get there but I simply can't see it being anytime soon.

97Black Lives Matter - Page 4 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Thu Jun 18 2020, 23:46

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Societal attitudes can and have changed and historically it's often a piece of symbolism such as taking the knee that gives people - especially younger people - something to identify with.
Symbolism can be a powerful catalyst and motivator like the Welsh wearing leeks on their helmets when battling the Saxons. 
Being brought up in the 50s with those post Victorian morality and attitudes to life, it was a revelation when the hippy movement - a bunch of apparent badly behaved middle class tosspots on acid - kicked off a sequence of societal change such as never seen before - rallying round a peace sign and snowflake concepts like flower power and self-enlightenment. Laughable now, but in reality it was powerful symbolism and brought about significant legal changes, bolstered assorted rights movements and stopped wars. The freedoms won facilitated change in most areas of Western society including culturally and socially.
I personally won't take the Black Lives matter thing lightly as it's an opportunity to remove one of the main barriers to the dialogue, compromise and consent that will be needed to achieve the global cooperation we'll need to face the threats ahead. But for many young people, it's simply a matter of making their world a better place - and a world without the stress, trauma, injustice, inequality and inhumanity of racism would indeed be a better place - and a place better equipped to face the future collectively.
It'll be interesting to see if BLM results in any real change. I'm really hoping so.

98Black Lives Matter - Page 4 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Fri Jun 19 2020, 06:44

T.R.O.Y.


Nicolas Anelka
Nicolas Anelka
Sluffy - Uk racism is systemic, the movement is about reaching equality in society. It’s addressing why having a foreign name makes it less likely to get responses on a job application or why black students attainment is more likely to be underestimated, and their levels drop over years in education. 

Systemic racism is not suffered by white people in this country. Simple as that.

You may not think the campaign will be effective, but what are you basing that on? can you name any event that has done more to raise awareness of these issues?



Last edited by T.R.O.Y. on Fri Jun 19 2020, 09:11; edited 1 time in total

99Black Lives Matter - Page 4 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Fri Jun 19 2020, 08:45

Keegan

Keegan
Moderator
Moderator
Let's talk a little bit about what racism is.
racism
prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized. 


I haven't had the pleasure of visiting the UK although it is on my bucket list to see The Wanderers play at the UoB Stadium before I kick the afore-mentioned bucket. I am willing to wager, however, that people of my ethnicity are not the majority. The whole point of racism is to oppress and marginalize others who are of a different race. In an environment where black people are not in a position of power by virtue of being the majority or able to marginalize another race of people, they cannot be racist. What has been mistaken for racism, is actually resentment - understandable, given historical circumstances. 


I recall stories in a British newspaper/s about two young footballers who had not yet broken into the first team of their club/s. Both players bought houses for their dear Mums. The white footballer was praised for his earnest gesture and was an awesome lad, while the black player was vilified for spending obscene amounts on property despite not even being a first teamer. It seems to me that there is a resentment among some influencers when poc are successful. Obviously I can't say all, but one is one too many in this case. 


There is a curious phenomenon across the pond, in the media. A case in point is the situation in which a black man was going down the road to get himself a burger. He heard cries for help and saw a white woman frantically trying to escape a house. He helped her and the police was brought in. It turned out that the woman had been held captive in the basement of the house with another woman for several years, as sex slaves. You would think that the black man would have been hailed as a hero - but the TV report ended with the fact that the rescuer had a criminal record, for drug possession. Can you think of a good reason why that needed to have been mentioned? Systemic racism decreed that the hero had to be shown in a negative light, because he was black. I'm sorry for my frequent presence and contributions to this topic, but that's me in my avatar and I'd like to think that my life matters.

https://forum.boltonnuts.co.uk

100Black Lives Matter - Page 4 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Fri Jun 19 2020, 10:20

Norpig

Norpig
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
We value your input on this Keegan as as far as i know you are the only black person on this forum (if i'm wrong on that then i'm sorry). We will never understand as white people what black people have to deal with.

I was watching the news only last night and they had a young black man who had been stopped by the Police around 20 times recently. He had videoed one of his stops and the copper actually said he had pulled him over just because he was a young black man! That is systemic or institutional racism which ever way you look at it.

If you ever do make it to the Unibol you are more than welcome to come and sit next to me in the Lofthouse Stand  Very Happy

101Black Lives Matter - Page 4 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Fri Jun 19 2020, 10:29

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Norpig wrote:If you ever do make it to the Unibol you are more than welcome to come and sit next to me in the Lofthouse Stand  Very Happy

You can do better Keegan.

102Black Lives Matter - Page 4 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Fri Jun 19 2020, 10:32

Norpig

Norpig
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
He doesn't want to go anywhere near your box Nat, it's seen better days.

103Black Lives Matter - Page 4 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Fri Jun 19 2020, 10:44

karlypants

karlypants
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Norpig wrote:He doesn't want to go anywhere near your box Nat, it's seen better days.
Laughing

104Black Lives Matter - Page 4 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Fri Jun 19 2020, 10:45

T.R.O.Y.


Nicolas Anelka
Nicolas Anelka
@Natasha Whittam wrote:

You can do better Keegan.

Laughing

105Black Lives Matter - Page 4 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Fri Jun 19 2020, 10:49

karlypants

karlypants
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Norpig wrote:He doesn't want to go anywhere near your box Nat, it's seen better days.
Laughing

106Black Lives Matter - Page 4 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Fri Jun 19 2020, 12:46

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@T.R.O.Y. wrote:Sluffy - Uk racism is systemic, the movement is about reaching equality in society. It’s addressing why having a foreign name makes it less likely to get responses on a job application or why black students attainment is more likely to be underestimated, and their levels drop over years in education. 

Systemic racism is not suffered by white people in this country. Simple as that.

You may not think the campaign will be effective, but what are you basing that on? can you name any event that has done more to raise awareness of these issues?

Perhaps I've not made my point as clear as I should have in which case I apologise, let me try again.

People, me you and everyone else 'behave' in certain ways, one of those ways for some people is by acting on racist views they hold.

Behaviour is 'learned' process based on what is acceptable/unacceptable in the environment and society in which you were raised and live - they are the 'norms'  of the society and culture in which you exist.

Therefore you need to change social culture first before individual behaviours change.

This take time.

Years and years if people are resistant to it.

I guess the world in general (at least my world) first had racism presented to them globally was at the 1968 Olympics when this happened -

Black Lives Matter - Page 4 John_Carlos%2C_Tommie_Smith%2C_Peter_Norman_1968cr

1968 Olympics Black Power salute

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_Olympics_Black_Power_salute

At the time had the same shock and awareness that was the equivalent of the Black Lives Matter marches of recent weeks.

This happened 52 years ago.


Another example of what I'm trying to illustrate is this -

Perhaps one of the biggest influencers on young male in modern life is football.  In this country racism is not tolerated at games.  The lets kick racism out of Football, better known as 'Kick it Out' is a high profile campaign on this which all who go or follow football in this country is aware of.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kick_It_Out_(organisation)

Yet in September last year this happened -

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52994025

Kick it Out has been going for 26 years at that time.


What I've been attempting to say is that individuals behaviour won't change until the culture bubble they are born, brought up and live in - family, friends, religion, etc - changes also - and some/many people simply don't wish it to change - hence why its taken years to get to even where we are now.

America even had a black president for EIGHT years yet it seems nothing much changed in that country in terms of eradicating racism as such.


So in order for people to change their behaviour, the culture in which they live needs to change first - and that involves major social change - and quite frankly many people don't want or will accept that.

The only answer I can see is continual education and enlightenment until the old and entrenched ways of believing and acting finally dies out and becomes extinct - and that will take time, maybe taking generations to finally achieve it.

People have to embrace the change for the world to change, having it 'forced' upon them simply won't change how they think - people don't stop being racist when they enter a football stadium and start again when they leave - they still are racist's whilst at the game too but 'hide' it whilst they are there because they know there are consequences if they act their true selves whilst they are there.

Same in real life too.

It takes time.

Lots of time unfortunately.

107Black Lives Matter - Page 4 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Fri Jun 19 2020, 13:04

T.R.O.Y.


Nicolas Anelka
Nicolas Anelka
Yes educating is the answer, nobody's arguing that - hence the (enlightening) conversation about British history at the moment, for too long we've whitewashed the crimes of the Empire. 

I was contending your point that racism goes both ways because systemic racism does not in this country - and that is preventing equal opportunity.

108Black Lives Matter - Page 4 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Fri Jun 19 2020, 13:06

gloswhite

gloswhite
Guðni Bergsson
Guðni Bergsson
It raises the question Sluffy, as this is the latest in a long line of attempts to raise the profile of the problem, why hasn't something of consequence been done so far. I feel its because the problem is deep rooted and society as a whole doesn't seem able to either accept it, for whatever reason, or to plan far enough ahead to resolve it.

109Black Lives Matter - Page 4 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Fri Jun 19 2020, 14:02

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@gloswhite wrote:It raises the question Sluffy, as this is the latest in a long line of attempts to raise the profile of the problem, why hasn't something of consequence been done so far. I feel its because the problem is deep rooted and society as a whole doesn't seem able to either accept it, for whatever reason, or to plan far enough ahead to resolve it.

To my mind Glos we have to understand ourselves first before we can understand others.

Basically we have evolved as humans over millenniums and survived because we lived in groups of family's and family's grouping together as tribes.

It's really only over the last few thousand years that we've developed a veneer of civilisation, underneath it we still have basically our 'evolved' nature that helped us to survive and prosper to where we find ourselves today.

As we progressed through history our various tribes fought for survival and control and it was normal to fight or be fearful of other tribes and their emerging cultures.

History is littered with conquest and control right back to the founding civilisations in China, Egypt, the Middle East and even later emerging countries like central and south American civilisations.

Control and power over others has always been the norm, not the exception.

Such instinctive behaviour I guess still exists in all of us even these days, that's why domestic abuse for instance is still so prevalent and widespread even in our own country.  Tribalism certainly exists, Nuts itself is a 'tribal' site for those belonging to the BWFC family to come and congregate.

It can't be any surprise then why people act and behave in the way they do - and have basically always done.

Over the last couple of century's we as a society have began to understand that we need to change - we for instance abolished slavery 150 years ago.  There is however a time lag for people to fully embrace such change, generations may have to come and go before resistance to it finally dies out with some.

We, this country is getting there but plenty others lag behind, some a long way behind.

All that's bad enough but you then have to take in factors such as power in terms of money, politics, religion and influence - both at a national level and at local and even family levels.    

That isn't given up easily or willingly.

You also need to take in factors such as people acceptance of change - look at how people have reacted to Brexit for instance, or how they view a change in government from Labour to Conservative, let alone how good/bad our next manager will be.

We can't simply press a restart button and begin again, racism has to be eradicated in the face of everything I've said above - and loads of other stuff I haven't even bothered to mention such as treating women equally for a start, and all from the position we find ourselves in now.

The good thing is that most decent people recognise and support the need for change but as I've been saying above that won't be achieved until many other things begin to change too, which brings about the means and acceptance of society to do so and that certainly won't happen overnight.

110Black Lives Matter - Page 4 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Fri Jun 19 2020, 15:05

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@T.R.O.Y. wrote:Yes educating is the answer, nobody's arguing that - hence the (enlightening) conversation about British history at the moment, for too long we've whitewashed the crimes of the Empire. 

I was contending your point that racism goes both ways because systemic racism does not in this country - and that is preventing equal opportunity.
Education is part of the answer but enforcing the law is another and we have a plethora of laws that underpin the fact that RACISM IS ILLEGAL. If the law was properly enforced and people's rights were upheld - and seen to be upheld - it will go a long way towards resolving the situation.
That is why the judiciary in the USA must make sure that the murderers in the Floyd case get the same severity of sentence as if it had been a black person with his knee on the neck of a white man whilst his mates stood around preventing an intervention.That is why in the UK we need to look at why deaths in police custody are in line with % of population for white people but black people account for 8% of such deaths despite only being 3% of the population. It isn't just random chance.
We need a judicial review as well given the disparity in sentencing.

If the full weight of the law came down on people and systems undertaking acts of racism, attitudes would change rapidly.
Maybe those bent American coppers (and the UK ones) will think twice if they realise they can no longer get away with it?

As for the lack of equal opportunity it not only causes disgruntlement, criminalisation and social unrest but also damages the economy as by default we are not necessarily getting the best people for the job in the right role and we are wasting potential. Stupid as well as immoral and un-Christian.

111Black Lives Matter - Page 4 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Fri Jun 19 2020, 15:40

T.R.O.Y.


Nicolas Anelka
Nicolas Anelka
I agree with you, but systemic racism would be difficult/impossible to prosecute. So i'm not sure the law alone can be relied on in this instance. 

There has to be a change in attitudes supported by the state, a start would be to make sure every child is given a proper history of the British Empire its impacts and damage across the world.

112Black Lives Matter - Page 4 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Fri Jun 19 2020, 15:45

Norpig

Norpig
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
This is related to the comment i made earlier, didn't realise its from 2015 but he still has issues with being stopped. This is institutional racism summed up perfectly

https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/cambridge-news/cambridgeshire-police-black-driver-video-18398034

113Black Lives Matter - Page 4 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Fri Jun 19 2020, 15:50

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@T.R.O.Y. wrote:I agree with you, but systemic racism would be difficult/impossible to prosecute. So i'm not sure the law alone can be relied on in this instance. 

There has to be a change in attitudes supported by the state, a start would be to make sure every child is given a proper history of the British Empire its impacts and damage across the world.
Very true. Excellent piece here regarding your point.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jun/13/equal-britain-teach-black-history-empire

114Black Lives Matter - Page 4 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Fri Jun 19 2020, 16:08

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@T.R.O.Y. wrote:I agree with you, but systemic racism would be difficult/impossible to prosecute. So i'm not sure the law alone can be relied on in this instance. 
Good point, but as I frequently have to point out to he-who-must-be-obeyed there is often more than one answer and tackling something as complex as racism will need addressing from all sorts angles.
Whilst systemic racism is difficult to prove, it's much easier to prosecute the individual instances that systemic racism causes. Remove the effect and the underlying causes are diminished. Increase accountability and consequences and it is further diminished. We already have the laws - we just need them to be impartially followed and implemented to make big inroads into the problem.

115Black Lives Matter - Page 4 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Fri Jun 19 2020, 16:20

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@wanderlust wrote: That is why in the UK we need to look at why deaths in police custody are in line with % of population for white people but black people account for 8% of such deaths despite only being 3% of the population. It isn't just random chance.

Use of population size is far to simplistic.

That would only work on the basis that an equal percentage of whatever ethnicity commit the same sort of crimes - and that's not the reality of life.

The poor tend to commit lower level crime, shoplifting, muggins, drug dealing etc, the richer more white collar crimes, fraud, embezzlement, etc.

I would imagine much more lower level, day to day crime goes on than higher level crime and so there is far a higher number/percentage of police arrests at this level.

I believe that economic statistics show blacks to be more likely classed as economically disadvantaged (poor) as a percentage of their population size than whites.

Therefore it seems reasonable to assume that if a similar percentage of black and white poor are committing these low level crimes - and as blacks are proportionally over represented population wise as being economically disadvantaged, then it to will follow also that they also are proportionally over represented in arrests/deaths population size.

That's not to say racial bias does not go on in the police force, just that it is far too simple to look at ethnic population percentages and state them as proof of racism, without taking account of all other factors leading to why people commit the crimes they do.

116Black Lives Matter - Page 4 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Fri Jun 19 2020, 16:24

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@wanderlust wrote:
Good point, but as I frequently have to point out to he-who-must-be-obeyed there is often more than one answer and tackling something as complex as racism will need addressing from all sorts angles.

Really is there any need for comments like this?

117Black Lives Matter - Page 4 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Fri Jun 19 2020, 16:41

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Sluffy wrote:

Really is there any need for comments like this?
Come on Sluffy - I know there must be a sense of humour somewhere in there? Anyhow, I was referring to my dutch boyfriend Dick Wippa.

118Black Lives Matter - Page 4 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Fri Jun 19 2020, 16:49

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@wanderlust wrote:
@Sluffy wrote:

Really is there any need for comments like this?
Come on Sluffy - I know there must be a sense of humour somewhere in there? Anyhow, I was referring to my dutch boyfriend Dick Wippa.

No my sense of humour has been eroded away after years of abuse from you and one or two others.

I didn't laugh when you complimented Norpig on his avatar either.

As I've told you before I don't come on here for abuse.

You don't seem to have grasped that yet.

About time you did.

119Black Lives Matter - Page 4 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Fri Jun 19 2020, 17:09

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Sluffy wrote:

No my sense of humour has been eroded away after years of abuse from you and one or two others.

I didn't laugh when you complimented Norpig on his avatar either.

As I've told you before I don't come on here for abuse.

You don't seem to have grasped that yet.

About time you did.

OK although no "abuse" is intended.

120Black Lives Matter - Page 4 Empty Re: Black Lives Matter on Fri Jun 19 2020, 17:31

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@wanderlust wrote:
@Sluffy wrote:

No my sense of humour has been eroded away after years of abuse from you and one or two others.

I didn't laugh when you complimented Norpig on his avatar either.

As I've told you before I don't come on here for abuse.

You don't seem to have grasped that yet.

About time you did.

OK although no "abuse" is intended.

Good, we are getting somewhere at last.

I like a joke as much as everybody else but what you (and a few others) have been doing is ridiculing, which the definition states is "the subjection of someone or something to contemptuous and dismissive language or behaviour".

Maybe now that's finally out in the open we can all learn from it and move on.

Hope so anyway.

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