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Wigan in Administration

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121Wigan in Administration - Page 5 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration on Sat Aug 08 2020, 01:46

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
Of course it was vastly different.

Hard to know where to begin, it's that much different!

Ok, let's start that we had an owner Anderson whose financial interest/bargaining power was to sell the club rather than let it fall into liquidation - Wigan has an owner seeking to liquidate and quickly too, to raise income/stop continuing losses.  So directly opposite objectives of the owners of the two clubs during Administration

We had at least major three creditors prepared to facilitate a purchase at their own personal disadvantage, namely EDT is still owed the best part of £7.5m owed to them and have recently taken out additional secured creditor status on the clubs assets because the terms of repayment have been effected FV's ability to pay with no revenue stream from matches since Covid hit.  Warburton has not pressed for his £1m plus and awaits sale of land he is secured against and James has left his/PBP £6m in the club when he could easily have taken the money and walked away.  Wigan have yet to find even a preferred bidder willing to pay £100k just to look at the books yet!

Our Admin/sale was not effected by the Covid situation, the business world was a completely different world to what it is now - Sharron and a venture capitalist have backed the club with £40m and if you add in EDT, Warburton and Michael James they've put in (or at least not taken out!) a further £15m or so.  As I've already said, Wigan can't find anyone to even pay to look at the books let alone find that sort of money to invest in it!

I could go on but I think I've already made my point.

As for Wigan being stripped to the bones before anyone comes into save them, the time is against them.  

There are already apparently £6m of football creditors (clubs like Barnsley and Everton who have player transfer instalments that have now fallen due to them) which as I understand it needs to be paid first before EFL will allow a sale to go through. Well a sale can go through but EFL will not let the new owners have the 'golden' share membership to play in the league.

Players such as Robinson and Williams (who both were on loan to us from Everton) have relegation release clauses of £1.5m and £2.5m respectively, so Wigan are only going to get 'fire sale' offers for their players right now.

At the same time players haven't been paid for July and the clock is ticking that if something isn't done soon they could walk away for free - with the £6m football creditors still needing to be paid no matter what.

There is also the possibility that Wigan could be hit with a further penalty points deduction this coming season of 15 points if they fail to pay of the 25% owing to unsecured creditors if and when a sale is finally agreed -

"Wigan are facing a further points deduction of up to 15 points should any new owner fail to pay 25% of the money owed to non-football creditors".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53318930

Apparently that sum is already at £1.5m - and rising daily!

On top of that the Administrators will take their payment out of the sale - and that won't be cheap!

The video I posted up earlier in the thread with the Administrator seemed to say (at least to my ears) that there is really only two weeks left to find a serious buyer and for the third time I'll point out that no one has even paid to look at the books yet let alone be serious about saving the club!

It might happen, football often defies business logic but from what I can see Wigan doesn't seem to have an Eddie Davies type saviour to ensure their survival (legacy) as Dave Whelan seems to have financial problems of his own right now, let alone several millions spare to rescue Wigan from the worst.

They are certainly up against it and with no white knight in sight for now.

Bassini territory at best I would say!

122Wigan in Administration - Page 5 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration on Sat Aug 08 2020, 13:07

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Sluffy wrote:Of course it was vastly different.

Hard to know where to begin, it's that much different!

Ok, let's start that we had an owner Anderson whose financial interest/bargaining power was to sell the club rather than let it fall into liquidation - Wigan has an owner seeking to liquidate and quickly too, to raise income/stop continuing losses.  So directly opposite objectives of the owners of the two clubs during Administration

We had at least major three creditors prepared to facilitate a purchase at their own personal disadvantage, namely EDT is still owed the best part of £7.5m owed to them and have recently taken out additional secured creditor status on the clubs assets because the terms of repayment have been effected FV's ability to pay with no revenue stream from matches since Covid hit.  Warburton has not pressed for his £1m plus and awaits sale of land he is secured against and James has left his/PBP £6m in the club when he could easily have taken the money and walked away.  Wigan have yet to find even a preferred bidder willing to pay £100k just to look at the books yet!

Our Admin/sale was not effected by the Covid situation, the business world was a completely different world to what it is now - Sharron and a venture capitalist have backed the club with £40m and if you add in EDT, Warburton and Michael James they've put in (or at least not taken out!) a further £15m or so.  As I've already said, Wigan can't find anyone to even pay to look at the books let alone find that sort of money to invest in it!

I could go on but I think I've already made my point.

As for Wigan being stripped to the bones before anyone comes into save them, the time is against them.  

There are already apparently £6m of football creditors (clubs like Barnsley and Everton who have player transfer instalments that have now fallen due to them) which as I understand it needs to be paid first before EFL will allow a sale to go through. Well a sale can go through but EFL will not let the new owners have the 'golden' share membership to play in the league.

Players such as Robinson and Williams (who both were on loan to us from Everton) have relegation release clauses of £1.5m and £2.5m respectively, so Wigan are only going to get 'fire sale' offers for their players right now.

At the same time players haven't been paid for July and the clock is ticking that if something isn't done soon they could walk away for free - with the £6m football creditors still needing to be paid no matter what.

There is also the possibility that Wigan could be hit with a further penalty points deduction this coming season of 15 points if they fail to pay of the 25% owing to unsecured creditors if and when a sale is finally agreed -

"Wigan are facing a further points deduction of up to 15 points should any new owner fail to pay 25% of the money owed to non-football creditors".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53318930

Apparently that sum is already at £1.5m - and rising daily!

On top of that the Administrators will take their payment out of the sale - and that won't be cheap!

The video I posted up earlier in the thread with the Administrator seemed to say (at least to my ears) that there is really only two weeks left to find a serious buyer and for the third time I'll point out that no one has even paid to look at the books yet let alone be serious about saving the club!

It might happen, football often defies business logic but from what I can see Wigan doesn't seem to have an Eddie Davies type saviour to ensure their survival (legacy) as Dave Whelan seems to have financial problems of his own right now, let alone several millions spare to rescue Wigan from the worst.

They are certainly up against it and with no white knight in sight for now.

Bassini territory at best I would say!
Of course you disagree Smile

123Wigan in Administration - Page 5 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration on Sat Aug 08 2020, 13:23

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@wanderlust wrote:Of course you disagree Smile

It's not a question of disagreeing it is simply factual, our circumstance were indeed vastly different from Wigan's.

Ominously for them things don't appear to have altered much for them (publicly anyway) from Tuesday when their failed appeal result was announced and fwiw this is what their Administrator said about the wage cap - hardly exciting news for their fans is it really?

The tweet is from the fan who did the video interview with the Administrator posted above on this thread.





124Wigan in Administration - Page 5 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration on Sun Aug 09 2020, 10:55

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

125Wigan in Administration - Page 5 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration on Sun Aug 09 2020, 13:12

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

126Wigan in Administration - Page 5 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration on Sun Aug 09 2020, 16:28

wessy

wessy
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf
Only just seen this new development not sure if it has legs, if not then with the clock ticking i agree with Sluffies summary above, very soon the EFL will need to publish the fixtures they will want assurances that Wigan can and will fulfill the seasons fixtures, despite fielding kids i think the EFL knew that FV were a strong suitor and let us kick off , Bury not so.

As pointed out no one has even paid to look at the books, i thought the only way out for Wigan was either a loan from the Whelan family like Ed did for us, and to buy time, or because the Rugby have a vested interest re the DW stadium and the owner Lenagan was also involved in football in the past with Oxford and a role on the FA, he may try to put a local consortium together.

Guessing this new interest could solve a problem, but if it doesn't work then it purely wastes more time, and the clock is ticking.

127Wigan in Administration - Page 5 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration on Sun Aug 09 2020, 18:07

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
There is also the question of the £24.5m loan that may or may not be outstanding too!

I note ww are having a bit of a chat about it at the moment and fwiw this is how I see things.

The original owner of the club IEC put the £24.5m into the club as a loan.

When it was sold to the new owners NLF (the one who put it into Admin) they paid iirc something like £17m and took on the £24.5m to be paid back to IEC.

Shortly after the sale went through IEC reported that the £24.5m had been paid to them in full.

I presume the link below is genuine?

https://www1.hkexnews.hk/listedco/listconews/sehk/2020/0529/2020052901522.pdf

Wigan football club didn't pay the money, so who did?

Whoever did so, and the most obvious ones to do so were NLF haven't seemingly secured the money on assets of the club, so who 'owns' the £24.5m - has it even been written off?

As the money isn't secured on club assets, then I would imagine if the loan still exists it would be classed as an unsecured loan and repayable at 25p in the £.

If its been written off then obviously it doesn't need to be repaid.

I would expect any prospective purchaser of the club would need to get to the bottom of this before entering into an agreement to buy the club - and similarly if there are 'issues' surrounding the club, they would be wise to loom into the company that owns the stadium and the holding company itself just to make sure there are no nasty surprises in store for them.

And all that takes time - and money!

128Wigan in Administration - Page 5 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration on Sun Aug 09 2020, 19:33

wessy

wessy
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf
I read that Wigan council owns 15% of the stadium ? not sure if this is correct. Wikipedia ?

[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DW_Stadium#:~:text=The DW Stadium is a,owned by Wigan local authority.]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DW_Stadium#:~:text=The%20DW%20Stadium%20is%20a,owned%20by%20Wigan%20local%20authority.[/url]

129Wigan in Administration - Page 5 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration on Sun Aug 09 2020, 21:08

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Sluffy wrote:There is also the question of the £24.5m loan that may or may not be outstanding too!

I note ww are having a bit of a chat about it at the moment and fwiw this is how I see things.

The original owner of the club IEC put the £24.5m into the club as a loan.

When it was sold to the new owners NLF (the one who put it into Admin) they paid iirc something like £17m and took on the £24.5m to be paid back to IEC.

Shortly after the sale went through IEC reported that the £24.5m had been paid to them in full.

I presume the link below is genuine?

https://www1.hkexnews.hk/listedco/listconews/sehk/2020/0529/2020052901522.pdf

Wigan football club didn't pay the money, so who did?

Whoever did so, and the most obvious ones to do so were NLF haven't seemingly secured the money on assets of the club, so who 'owns' the £24.5m - has it even been written off?

As the money isn't secured on club assets, then I would imagine if the loan still exists it would be classed as an unsecured loan and repayable at 25p in the £.

If its been written off then obviously it doesn't need to be repaid.

I would expect any prospective purchaser of the club would need to get to the bottom of this before entering into an agreement to buy the club - and similarly if there are 'issues' surrounding the club, they would be wise to loom into the company that owns the stadium and the holding company itself just to make sure there are no nasty surprises in store for them.

And all that takes time - and money!

I can imagine a scenario whereby the money that the owners took out to pay another debt (allegedly) which in doing so freed up other funds which went back to Wigan in a never-ending game of "pass the debt" for tax purposes or some other nefarious frivolity.
Or there could be another investor.
If the bills keep getting paid it ain't over yet but i imagine some assets will go somewhere along the line.

130Wigan in Administration - Page 5 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration on Sun Aug 09 2020, 21:14

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@wessy wrote:I read that Wigan council owns 15% of the stadium ? not sure if this is correct. Wikipedia ?

[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DW_Stadium#:~:text=The DW Stadium is a,owned by Wigan local authority.]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DW_Stadium#:~:text=The%20DW%20Stadium%20is%20a,owned%20by%20Wigan%20local%20authority.[/url]

Without delving through everything I can accept that to be true but if you think about, it's like saying you own 15% of your house, but whoever owns the other 85% of it gets the main say in things.

As far as I know, again without delving into things, the 'club' owns the other 85% and the club is 'owned' by NLF.

NLF is basically looking for a 'buyer' for everything, which includes its part of the stadium.

I would imagine the principle 'value' in what assets the 'club' has, is the land the stadium is on, the land of its two training grounds and whatever else land it has.

There doesn't seem to be any value on the football side per se as the 'value' is in the players and it seems it needs to 'sell' these players to cover keeping afloat at the present time.

The Administrators could in theory sell the stadium and or training grounds separately but have so far held off as they are hoping to sell the club with stadium and training ground for now.

If they can't then no doubt they will have sell things separately, then you start to get into what do people want to buy them for - to build houses on them perhaps?

In order to do that would depend on what planning restrictions the council has placed on the land - apparently for the stadium only sporting and recreational use is currently permitted - so no houses!

Who then would want to buy the stadium and/or training grounds if they have to remain that way?

Obviously for the stadium Wigan Rugby would but can they afford it/run it thereafter?

They would have to do their sums.

I don't think those sums would include buying and running a loss making football club either.

It wouldn't surprise me if the Council and rugby team get together (probably with others) to end up buying the stadium but I can't see them buying the football club however.

Fwiw there seems to be 5 companies that are being dealt with by the Administrator -

WIGAN ATHLETIC A.F.C. LIMITED
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/00270043

This is the 'football' club.  The last accounts up to June 2019 showed player wages of just under £20m and a trading loss of £9.2m.

WIGAN FOOTBALL COMPANY LIMITED
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/03477413

This is the 'stadium and training grounds' - last accounts stated assets of around £24m

WIGAN ATHLETIC HOLDINGS LIMITED
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/07283993

This is the bit that controls the shares in the company - think how Burnden Leisure was to BEFC.

WIGAN PROPERTY HOLDINGS LIMITED
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/11205092

This seems to be a company set up by IEC to pump money into the business - nothing much in their accounts as everything seems to balance to zero.

WIGAN SPORTS MANAGEMENT LIMITED
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10892240

Set up in July 2017 presumably intended to be the company that bought 'Wigan' similarly to how FV is to us.  Seems instead IEC chose to buy direct and not through this company.  Last accounts showed this company as 'dormant' and not trading with nothing in its accounts.


It's not easy understanding all the twists and turns and I'm a bit weak on the 'share's' side of things as I specialised in the public sector option of my professional qualification - Ten Bob is the one to listen to on that and in particular the comprehensive understanding of accountancy - but that's the best picture I can make of things.

In short I can't see why anyone would want to buy Wigan football club, I can't see how they would get their money back?

I said the same about BWFC and FV proved me wrong (I still can't see what their business plan is though?) but Wigan's plight is made even worse with having no one willing to prop them up from their existing creditors (like EDT and James have with us), selling in a pandemic with a knock on to future revenue stream, depreciation of capital assets(?) and immediate need for £6m football creditors and who knows perhaps a further £6m for that 'iffy' loan as well as having someone solid/dependable enough to guarantee a sale will go through to guarantee the EFL allowing them to even start the season.

Then again I wouldn't back against it not happening even after saying all that!

My logic says everything is against their survival, I'll leave it that.

131Wigan in Administration - Page 5 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration on Sun Aug 09 2020, 21:32

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@wanderlust wrote:
@Sluffy wrote:There is also the question of the £24.5m loan that may or may not be outstanding too!

I note ww are having a bit of a chat about it at the moment and fwiw this is how I see things.

The original owner of the club IEC put the £24.5m into the club as a loan.

When it was sold to the new owners NLF (the one who put it into Admin) they paid iirc something like £17m and took on the £24.5m to be paid back to IEC.

Shortly after the sale went through IEC reported that the £24.5m had been paid to them in full.

I presume the link below is genuine?

https://www1.hkexnews.hk/listedco/listconews/sehk/2020/0529/2020052901522.pdf

Wigan football club didn't pay the money, so who did?

Whoever did so, and the most obvious ones to do so were NLF haven't seemingly secured the money on assets of the club, so who 'owns' the £24.5m - has it even been written off?

As the money isn't secured on club assets, then I would imagine if the loan still exists it would be classed as an unsecured loan and repayable at 25p in the £.

If its been written off then obviously it doesn't need to be repaid.

I would expect any prospective purchaser of the club would need to get to the bottom of this before entering into an agreement to buy the club - and similarly if there are 'issues' surrounding the club, they would be wise to loom into the company that owns the stadium and the holding company itself just to make sure there are no nasty surprises in store for them.

And all that takes time - and money!

I can imagine a scenario whereby the money that the owners took out to pay another debt (allegedly) which in doing so freed up other funds which went back to Wigan in a never-ending game of "pass the debt" for tax purposes or some other nefarious frivolity.
Or there could be another investor.
If the bills keep getting paid it ain't over yet but i imagine some assets will go somewhere along the line.

No it isn't that.

Accounts stateted that creditors due in the next twelve months showed that money was due to someone (presumably IEC) but the Administrator states that no money has left Wigan football club - so it simply can't be a merry-go-round as you are suggesting.

If was paid by NLF or a third party to IEC the money doesn't seem to have been secured against Wigan assets - and thus IF it is genuinely owed to someone it doesn't seem to be Wigan that is liable for it - hence I guess the Administrators comments about looking not to pay it.

And even if they do end up having to pay it, it would seem to me at least that they are best unsecured creditors - thus 25p in the £.

Maybe it is far more complicated than that but as it stands the Administrators seem to be saying it isn't their/Wigan's problem - and if I were thinking about buying Wigan I'd want to get my own professional opinion on that so that I could claim off them if they were wrong!

What I'm saying in a nutshell is whoever is looking to buy the club will need time to do due diligence properly and I'm not sure the football club has got that much time with players potentially being able to walk away for free soon and EFL wanting guarantees from someone that Wigan are able to complete the season before they will allow them to even start it.

132Wigan in Administration - Page 5 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration on Mon Aug 10 2020, 11:31

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Sluffy wrote:

No it isn't that.

Accounts stateted that creditors due in the next twelve months showed that money was due to someone (presumably IEC) but the Administrator states that no money has left Wigan football club - so it simply can't be a merry-go-round as you are suggesting.
I'm confused.
Why did they go into administration if no money was taken out of WAFC? I thought Choi took money out to pay other debts? Or is that incorrectly reported?
If so, does that imply WAFC were heading for the wall before Choi got involved?

133Wigan in Administration - Page 5 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration on Mon Aug 10 2020, 13:02

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@wanderlust wrote:
@Sluffy wrote:

No it isn't that.

Accounts stateted that creditors due in the next twelve months showed that money was due to someone (presumably IEC) but the Administrator states that no money has left Wigan football club - so it simply can't be a merry-go-round as you are suggesting.
I'm confused.
Why did they go into administration if no money was taken out of WAFC? I thought Choi took money out to pay other debts? Or is that incorrectly reported?
If so, does that imply WAFC were heading for the wall before Choi got involved?

Cash flow.

New owners simply didn't underwrite trading losses.

Exactly like what happened to us following Eddie's death and Anderson not underwriting Bolton's trading loss.

No idea where you read Choi took money out, the sale agreement turned his loan into one repayable over just 12 months, which for a sum of £24.5m could not be done with the club even though it had no other debts outstanding at the time other than normal day to day stuff.

Wigan, like Bolton and multiple other clubs as was/still is the norm in the sector were trading at a loss with a wealthy benefactor underwriting them - that's why Choi's/IEC £24.5m was there in the first place (exactly the same as how Eddie Davies/Moonshift loaned BWFC money and was eventually written off to the tune of some £200m).

After the sale Choi's company IEC received payment in full of the £24.5m so is no longer involved with Wigan.

Nobody knows where the £24.5m came from and what sort of a deal, if any, the person/company took over the loan which is showing as outstanding on Wigan's books still, but no charge was taken out on Wigan assets according to the Administrators.

So the situation as it stands is that there is a loan of £24.5m outstanding to be paid in Wigan's accounts but that loan has been settled at the creditors end.

The Administrators are not aware of any legal agreement between IEC and whoever settled with them to take on the debt (think factoring, one company buying the debt off another).

If nobody owns the debt the only conclusion I can come up with is that it has been written off by whoever paid the money to IEC.

Whoever buys Wigan needs to assure themselves professionally that that is indeed the case.

To be fair to Choi/IEC he funded Wigan since his takeover in 2018 to the tune of around £41m (or at least that is what he sold it for including the £24.5m debt he certainly put into it (interest free at the time I believe) - think similar to Venky's and Blackburn.  

Was it financially viable when he bought it in 2018?  

No.

Was it financially viable when he left it early this year?

No.

Was it heading to the wall you ask - before Choi got involved?

Yes - but again to be fair to Choi that was the industry norm at the time (think Anderson buying Bolton)

There where only two ways to go with such a position, one being the owner to continually underwrite the club from his own pocket, or the other to reduce costs/raise income to achieve a financially sustainable business.

Choi chose the first, Anderson chose the second (being propped up with Eddie's help behind the scene with cashflow).

Was Choi a bad owner?  Can't say I noticed too many Wigan fan's calling him out until the sale this year.

Was Anderson a bad owner?  You certainly believed so along with many others but he did reduce costs whilst keeping us somewhat competitive for a time (promotion and staying up the following season) and hasn't appeared to have raped and pillaged the club to line his own pocket - or at least the Administrator hasn't acted from his forensic examination of the clubs accounts which he is legally obliged to if that had happened.

Wigan if they survive will have to go through the same process to become sustainable.

The problem as I see it when people criticise club owners is that the vast majority of people simply have no understand how company's run and the concept of limited liability.

If they did they could at least better understand what is happening and why.

134Wigan in Administration - Page 5 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration on Mon Aug 10 2020, 19:40

luckyPeterpiper

luckyPeterpiper
Frank Worthington
Frank Worthington
Even without the coronavirus this day has been coming for decades. The simple fact remains that the north west of England simply cannot support the number of professional football clubs that currently exist. The "cachment" area and available fanbase simply isn't large enough to do so given the current expense running and maintaining a football club entails.

I don't think it's any kind of coincidence that the three clubs most recently left in turmoil by income not matching expenditure are all within a few miles of Manchester. Bury, ourselves and Wigan are never going to operate profitably when the vast majority of football 'fans' now prefer to watch from home on Sky or go to a 'big' game involving Man Utd or Man City.

Although it pains me to say it I believe it will be necessary for some NW clubs to merge if they are to survive in the long term. Otherwise you'll see us lurch from one crisis to the next until Bury are joined in oblivion by several other clubs including Preston, Blackburn, ourselves, Wigan, Rochdale, Oldham and perhaps even the likes of Tranmere and Salford City.

Football is now at a crossroads, one in which it must evolve or the lower leagues will die.

135Wigan in Administration - Page 5 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration on Mon Aug 10 2020, 21:07

wessy

wessy
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf
Agree that the catchment area that we are in is overloaded with football clubs, the last thing this area needed was a Salford City, however for over 100 years most of these clubs co existed, so is it the catchment area or the greed due to sky money that is the real cause.? The Premiership is beginning to disgust me, paying 100 million to finish bottom paying ridiculous transfer fees and unsustainable weekly wages. Whilst clubs in the EFL go bust.

PNE are well run, likewise Brentford despite all the London clubs. agree we are at a cross roads but can't see anything changing before some clubs do go tp the wall.

136Wigan in Administration - Page 5 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration on Mon Aug 10 2020, 23:57

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@luckyPeterpiper wrote:Even without the coronavirus this day has been coming for decades. The simple fact remains that the north west of England simply cannot support the number of professional football clubs that currently exist. The "cachment" area and available fanbase simply isn't large enough to do so given the current expense running and maintaining a football club entails.

I don't think it's any kind of coincidence that the three clubs most recently left in turmoil by income not matching expenditure are all within a few miles of Manchester. Bury, ourselves and Wigan are never going to operate profitably when the vast majority of football 'fans' now prefer to watch from home on Sky or go to a 'big' game involving Man Utd or Man City.

Although it pains me to say it I believe it will be necessary for some NW clubs to merge if they are to survive in the long term. Otherwise you'll see us lurch from one crisis to the next until Bury are joined in oblivion by several other clubs including Preston, Blackburn, ourselves, Wigan, Rochdale, Oldham and perhaps even the likes of Tranmere and Salford City.

Football is now at a crossroads, one in which it must evolve or the lower leagues will die.
So does that mean we need to claw our way back to the top of the shitheap before the amalgamations start?

137Wigan in Administration - Page 5 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration on Wed Aug 12 2020, 15:56

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
Administrator provides update on sale of Wigan Athletic

Co-administrator Paul Stanley says they are still talking with several potential bidders interested in buying the club.

But nobody has paid the £100,000 bond which they are demanding to begin the exclusivity process.

While frustrated by the lack of development, Stanley understands why the interested parties are doing their due diligence – and why it is taking time.

With a stadium, two training grounds, statements and various contracts to scrutinise, the possible buyers want to know just what they are getting into before handing over £100,000 to the administrators’ lawyers. That non-refundable bond is to cover their legal costs should the bidder withdraw.

“There’s not a lot of movement at the moment, there are still people there but they’re asking questions and finding out what they need to find out,” Stanley said.

“We’re still engaging with interested parties, and there are people locally and overseas.

“It’s a lot of work as nobody is sending the money and we’re having to deal with everyone’s questions.

“I know everyone wants us to say, ‘It has happened’, and one day there will be that news – but we’re not there yet.”

The administrators, brought in on July 1, had previously identified a preferred bidder but talks collapsed when they wouldn’t pay the bond.

A bid spearheaded by Warriors owner Ian Lenagan is the only party to publicly confirm interest in buying Latics.

On the positive front, Stanley eased some fans’ concerns there may be a rush to secure a new owner, saying Latics could start their new campaign in League One next month in administration if necessary.

Players will return to training today to begin preparing for the new campaign, with Leam Richardson - who was Paul Cook's assistant - taking charge.

https://www.wigantoday.net/sport/football/administrator-provides-update-sale-wigan-athletic-2939596

138Wigan in Administration - Page 5 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration on Thu Aug 13 2020, 17:26

RangersDave

RangersDave
Mario Jardel
Mario Jardel
lets face it, who in their right mind would pay £100,000.00 for exclusivity?

Only someone with more money than sense, and if he was out there he'd have paid it by now, shirley? ..dunno..

139Wigan in Administration - Page 5 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration on Thu Aug 13 2020, 18:35

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin



THE JOINT ADMINISTRATORS WOULD LIKE TO UPDATE THE FANS, EMPLOYEES AND PEOPLE OF WIGAN WITH THE CURRENT SITUATION.

1. SALE OF CLUB
We are continuing talks with various interested parties and are in discussions with four bidders regarding the sale.

We have set a deadline of 31 August 2020 to agree and sign the sale contract.

If the contract is not signed by this date, we will have to reconsider the position on the basis that the new season starts a week later. The reason for this is that we will be responsible for the team at the start of the season and the fulfilment of the fixtures.  Understandably, if no buyer is available, we do not wish to commit to something we cannot see through.

We are still hopeful that one of the bidders will be in a position to sign the contract as set out.

2. PLAYER SALES
We can confirm that in the last week, the registrations of Joe Gelhardt and Kieffer Moore have been sold to Leeds United and Cardiff City respectively. The Joint Administrators wish them all the best in the future.

There are further negotiations currently taking place regarding player sales and these will be announced when they are completed.

3. SUPPORTERS CLUB
We would like to thank the Supporters Club for their continued financial support.

They have today agreed to advance us from their own funds the money to buy next season’s first team strip which will bear the Supporters Club logo for the beginning of the season.

4. WAGES AND SALARIES
We can confirm that the wages and salaries of all staff and current playing squad have been paid in full up to 31 July 2020.

With regards to players who have left the club, we are working to pay these as soon as we can and will be after the next player sale proceeds are received.

On 1 July 2020, Paul Stanley, Gerald Krasner and Dean Watson of Begbies Traynor were appointed joint administrators. All communications should be c/o Begbies Traynor. Please contact the joint administrators either by phone on 0333 009 6869 or by email at wiganafc@btguk.com

https://wiganathletic.com/news/2020/august/Update-Statement-from-the-Joint-Administrators/

140Wigan in Administration - Page 5 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration on Thu Aug 13 2020, 18:40

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
Sounds like the death knell to me.

141Wigan in Administration - Page 5 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration on Thu Aug 13 2020, 20:01

wessy

wessy
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf
Well we knew the clock was ticking but now the alarm as just gone off, knowing how bad it was for us last year, i truly do not wish this on any club, yes i know they took the piss big style but your club is just that your club, and i can't think of anything worse in sporting terms than seeing something you have invested in throughout your life disappear.

If they survive maybe they have learn't not to play billy big bollocks when a rival club is in trouble, if they go then they will have a long time to reflect. With Charlton also on the cusp serious times for the EFL and with covid who knows what the start of play will be by next summer.

142Wigan in Administration - Page 5 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration on Thu Aug 13 2020, 21:06

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
How transfer fees are helping Wigan Athletic to survive

Administrators who have taken control of the club met with officials from the governing body late last week.

They sought assurances they could use any money paid for players to help the club survive until a buyer for the club is found and in place.

It meant, for example, the fee paid by Leeds United for Joe Gelhardt – thought to be £1m – could go towards players’ wages as a priority, rather than go into the pot for creditors’ debts.

Paul Stanley, one of the co-administrators, said: “We had a meeting with the EFL on Friday and they were really supportive in terms of allowing funds from player sales to take immediate cash flow problems away.”

The fee for Gelhardt covered July's wage-bill for the players. The 18-year-old was highly sought-after even before Latics went into administration, and suffered a subsequent relegation.

But it's little surprise that Kieffer Moore [Since been sold to Cardiff] and Antonee Robinson have been the latest players linked with exits - and not just because of their stock as players.

Like any club exiting administrations, Latics must clear all of their football creditors’ debts.

And that includes any outstanding transfer fees – even if previous instalments had been arranged.

Administrators give update on sale of club Robinson has been linked with a £2m move to Premier League side Sheffield United. Latics, though, would need to use some of that fee to pay the rest of the transfer fee which they owe Robinson’s former club, Everton – believed to be in the region £500,000.

And the club still owe around £1.5m to Barnsley for Moore and £750,000 to Portsmouth for Jamal Lowe.

It is understood they also owe money to Everton (for Joe Williams) and Rangers (for Josh Windass).

If those players moved on, it would massively reduce the football creditors' debt. Ideally, given the circumstances, Latics would sell those players for more than they owe their previous clubs - so any excess money can go towards the upkeep of the club during this period in limbo without an owner.

As well as transfer fees, football creditors’ debts include any unpaid players wages and agents fees.

Any new owner would need to clear those in full before bringing Latics out of administration. The administrators - who have been in control of the club's affairs since July 1 - will also be paid for their work, before any remaining goes towards paying non-football creditors.

If they don't receive at least 25p in the £, Latics will incur a 15 point penalty.

While the sale of Gelhardt funded players' wages, money raised by fans paid the July wages for office and stadium staff.

The fund set-up by the official supporters' club has already topped the £190,000 mark and they are hoping to reach £200,000 to potentially cover August wages, too.

They had previously used money raised to pay for hotel stays and travel so Latics could complete their Championship campaign.

https://www.wigantoday.net/sport/football/how-transfer-fees-are-helping-wigan-athletic-survive-2940821


143Wigan in Administration - Page 5 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration on Thu Aug 13 2020, 21:30

T.R.O.Y.


Nicolas Anelka
Nicolas Anelka
Almost feels like we were lucky to go through our shit 12 months before. Who knows how covid would have affected us.

144Wigan in Administration - Page 5 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration on Fri Aug 14 2020, 00:07

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
There are still Wigan fans greeting this news with incredulity and yet it bears all the hallmarks of what happened to us - settling with creditors, selling players, worries over where the wages were coming from, worries about not getting a buyer, watching the house being sold from under their feet etc etc - our fans were the same. Although in our case I was just as worried when we did get a buyer Smile
I feel for them.

145Wigan in Administration - Page 5 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration on Fri Aug 14 2020, 10:10

Whitesince63


Nicolas Anelka
Nicolas Anelka
I think any real football fan would feel for them Lusty, especially those like us who have been through the mill too. I know they gave us pelters and must now be feeling contrite with what’s happening. I have to say that I’m not at all confident that a deal will be done in time but if there really are four genuinely interested parties there must be a fair chance at least one of them will deliver. Times are tough though and whoever might buy them has to consider that most if not all of their best players will have gone and like we were, they will be among the favourites for relegation, especially if they end up with the additional 15 point penalty for not paying creditors the minimum 25%. I hope they survive but if they don’t I still don’t think they’ll be the only ones to go pop before the season starts.

146Wigan in Administration - Page 5 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration on Fri Aug 14 2020, 12:40

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
One of their fans who is supposed to have spoken a number of times to the Administrators previously and did that video interview tweeted this following from their official announcement yesterday.



My view fwiw is something along these lines -

Why would anyone want to buy the club

Either because they are a massive fan, as some sort of investment to get to the PL and big money, or as some sort of a business venture.

The Fan Option.

Whelan was their Eddie and he's got money issues of his own, so he's out.  The only other person linked seems to be the owner of Wigan rugby (who once owned Oxford football club - Wigan born Ian Lenagan.

Rugby in general has problems of its own with Covid and tackling involved in the game -

Hull FC & Salford Red Devils will not play this weekend after Hull positive Covid-19 tests
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/53753673

Would he therefore want to take on a loss making football club at this time too?

The PL Punt Option

If you had the money to burn, then why not have a punt with Wigan.  It seems to have all the facilities stadium, training ground, links to Manchester and on to London or international flights abroad (if you are a foreign investor).  Desperate/frantic  for a buyer.

Seems a good as place as any.

Thing is though the last owners from China took a punt on them too and looked what happened - then throw in the unanswered question of Covid.  There's going to be a second wave (and a third and forth, etc) until some sort of answer is found to it - and whose to say next season (or the one after, etc) won't be effected/suspended?

An unquantifiable risk to be taking on with maybe even bigger (and higher tier) clubs becoming available soon perhaps?

The Business Venture Risk

Tbh I've still not worked out FV's plan for us, so guessing why others would see a potential in Wigan is beyond my ken.

The physical assets seems to be a stadium two training grounds and a some chip shop(?) or land where a chippy stood or something (I've not looked into to this one) - all however seemed to be constrained by planning regulations to be used for sport/recreation and not building homes/factories on.

Maybe you can sell the land to fund the trading losses on the club until you can manage the club at a financially sustainable level - but you still have to deal with outstanding football creditors (was £6m) and unsecured creditors (was £1.5m) and the - is it real, is it not - £24.5m loan!

Conclusion

Whoever buys Wigan needs to -

- deal with the £24.5 loan - if that really exists there won't be a buyer full stop.

Assuming it doesn't exist needs to -

- pay off footballing creditors - lets say player sales under Admin is able to do that.
- pay off unsecured creditors - lets say that's gone up to perhaps £2.5m by now
- pay off August wages - say £1m
- show proof to EFL of monies to cover the trading losses of the club for the next two years - say little to no income over the next season with most players still contracted on the wages they are on (some talk of clauses re salary reduction for relegation?) lets say £4m loss year one and £1m year two - and I must stress that would be after income from fans for ST's and match day income!).

There is also who pays for Administration - for the Administrators time?

I'm guessing that the deal was to recover the fee from the sale proceeds of the club - if so whoever buys Wigan will have to pay a sum equivalent to the Admins fees for their services - let's say £1m.


So we are talking about someone having to pay out about £1m for August wages, £2.5m for unsecured creditors (or take a 15 point penalty and still owe the money) and £1m for the Administration totalling about £4.5m up front.  

Afterwards they are looking at about a further £5m losses over the next two years (again stressing that assumes after receiving ST money and match day income - without this you can easily double that amount).

So you need whoever buys them to have somewhere in the region of £10m now in order to show the Administrator and EFL proof of funding.

My guess is that only Lenagan would have reason to do something like that - but why would he - wouldn't it be much cheaper and simpler for him just to buy the stadium (and training ground/s) off the liquidator and let the football club go under.

It would also fit it what the tweet above says - someone (Lenagan) has visited all the sites (stadium and training grounds) that day.

Doesn't necessarily means he wants to buy the 'football club' but simply wanting to buy its 'assets' only!

Just my view on things - but the clock is ticking and I can't see Wigan being allowed by the EFL to start the season without a firm and serious buyer involved in buying the club before hand.

147Wigan in Administration - Page 5 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration on Fri Aug 14 2020, 16:08

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
The £24.5m loan seems to be real!!!

My understanding is that shareholders have been issued a copy of the accounts by the Administrators - if so it seems to be the killer blow for Wigan FC.

148Wigan in Administration - Page 5 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration on Fri Aug 14 2020, 16:53

Cajunboy

Cajunboy
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf
Sluffy, you need to look in to that Chip Shop.

It could be the key to survival.

149Wigan in Administration - Page 5 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration on Fri Aug 14 2020, 19:00

wessy

wessy
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf
Not sure if this is right but i recall that when David Sharpe (DW Grandson) was appointed chairman Wigan fans had a laugh because all he had ever run was a Chippy ? and i think he made a balls of that but grandads money bailed him out. So guessing the chippy was probably bought by DW so part of the assets when he sold it on.

If those figures above are correct then they are toast chippy or not.

Yes it just seen it was called Sharpy's Chippy near the DW  now closed down

150Wigan in Administration - Page 5 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration on Fri Aug 14 2020, 22:04

luckyPeterpiper

luckyPeterpiper
Frank Worthington
Frank Worthington
It's my honest opinion that we will have to merge with someone sooner rather than later. A few years ago a sports writer suggested we should merge with Bury (obviously before their troubles and ours became so pronounced) and that perhaps Rochdale should merge with Oldham Athletic. I don't say it's the right solution or that it would have gone down well with the fans of the clubs involved but his wider point was that the 'smaller' North West clubs were not going to survive in the Premier League era as things stand. The massive disparity in income between the top flight and the rest means that most clubs simply cannot get there in a sustainable way. I don't know if mergers will happen but I am absolutely certain that if they don't then there will be more Burys, more Wigan Athletics, more Bolton Wanderers and that administration will no longer be a way out of trouble but simply a stepping stone on the way to extinction.

Only a radical and frankly completely unlikely shakeup of how money is distributed throughout the game could avoid that but I cannot see any way in which the current beneficiaries (eg Liverpool, Man City, Chelsea and the other Premier League 'big clubs') will ever agree to something that takes money out of their coffers and puts it elsewhere.

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