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Wigan in Administration

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31Wigan in Administration - Page 2 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration on Wed Jul 15, 2020 5:00 pm

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Wigan battering Hull 8 nil has really put the cat amongst the pigeons because if they take away 12 points this season they are still favourites to survive ATM.

32Wigan in Administration - Page 2 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration on Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:50 pm

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@wanderlust wrote:Wigan battering Hull 8 nil has really put the cat amongst the pigeons because if they take away 12 points this season they are still favourites to survive ATM.

Wigan will stay up, they are miles better than the clubs down the bottom even with 12 points taken from them.

The club should never have been placed in Administration - they have no debts ffs!

Nothing, zilch, completely solvent.

The club (let's focus on that rather than the owner) had planned for a cash injection from the owner for cash flow purposes - but for whatever reason it never came and the owner it appears as simply walked away!

The business as far as I can tell, owns all the assets - ground, land stadium, etc and could easily have borrowed against those to solve their cashflow issue.

As far as I can tell they seem to be trading with a £9m deficiency which the owner has been covering (like what Eddie Davies used to do).

The season will end shortly and I expect some of the players will soon be out of contract and off the payroll.  

Anyone could buy the club out of Administration and fund the next couple of seasons trading deficits until they shed all their big earners.  The funding could come from within the club - sales of players (think £6m for Madine in a similar position for us) or the sale of assets (we had no assets free of charges to sell/put of for security against loans), or come from the new owners personal funds - if that's what he wanted to do.

The sale should be quick and straight forward as there are no creditors to settle with, no joint Administrators and no owner/former owner fighting over 'owed' monies to/from each other.

Wigan seemed to have sold a youth team player for £500k which will pay the players wages and possibly sell another player or two to fund the cost of the Administration process.

We (Bolton) on the other hand had an insolvent club, with many outstanding creditors and a toxic relationship with the owner at that time (KA) fuelled by greedy players wanting money from an empty pot and deciding to go on strike (with this being overarched all the time with Iles and the ST whipping up hatred towards Anderson and geeing up the social media braindead that followed them with little to no knowledge of how companies entering insolvency actually work).

Is it any wonder our Administration was about warring parties entrenching themselves to protect their positions with seemingly little love loss towards each other - and in Anderson's case - towards the supporter fanbase who had abused and threatened him so much by that time the police advised him and his family not to attend the club for fear of their own safety!

Wigan have no players with ill will towards the club/owner, who have not thrown their toys out of the pram/gone on strike/refused to get on the match bus/gone in to major strops, etc, etc and have simply applied themselves to the task in hand unlike our lot did.  Then again they didn't have the Wigan equivalent to Iles and the ST cheerleading for them against the clubs owner - nor it must be said a pisshead leader of the pack wanting everyone to go on strike like we had with Wheater.

Eight - nil against a club they might have been competing with to stay in the league says it all - our lot were too busy pissing it up at Fannys.

And don't forget, everyone of them still got every penny of their wages in the end!

Where are they now?

Wheater at Oldham, Ameobi has broken no pots at Forest, Andy Taylor couldn't find a club, the Polish bloke is at a division two Turkish side, Vela at Shrewsbury (failed at Hibbs).

Wouldn't want any of them in the trenches with me when push comes to shove!

Hey ho.

33Wigan in Administration - Page 2 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration on Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:31 pm

T.R.O.Y.


Nicolas Anelka
Nicolas Anelka
If Wigan players and staff haven’t missed a pay cheque, I don’t see how you can make a direct comparison between Wigan’s players behaviour and ours. It’s a pretty substantial difference in situation.

34Wigan in Administration - Page 2 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration on Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:35 pm

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@T.R.O.Y. wrote:If Wigan players and staff haven’t missed a pay cheque, I don’t see how you can make a direct comparison between Wigan’s players behaviour and ours. It’s a pretty substantial difference in situation.

The cashflow issue was to cover the players deferred wages that was falling due it was this that triggered the Administration although technically at the time the club had not defaulted on any payments - ie had no creditors outstanding.

From memory the players have since only received 20% of their wages (the sale of the youngster (Weir) to Brighton for a reported £500k, will resolve the issue.

So as far as the Wigan players were concerned before they kicked off last night, they were outstanding three months (I think it was) deferred wages and 80% of the current months as well.

They were always going to be paid in full no matter what because they are 'football' creditors and are the first creditors to be 'top sliced' and paid in the ranking priority, in order to exit Administration.

Exactly the same position BWFC players were in - ie guaranteed to be paid in full.

The circumstances and timescales may well be different but the end result was/is exactly the same namely the players whether they be from BWFC or WAFC - all KNEW they would be paid in full but one lot went on strike (twice I may add) and the others went out and won 8-0.

Fwiw Wheater was interviewed on video by Michela Wain (the Bolton woman who was on The Apprentice a year or two back) and 'happily' explained that he was behind the players strike because he thought it would 'force' Anderson to dip into his personal wealth in order to pay his and the other players wages.

He just laughed when it turned out he didn't and the strike was for nothing.

He was even asked if he thought he should have put the fans first and played to which he more or less said he cared more about his money than them!

Just completely the wrong attitude imo.

Fwiw he says he was owed two months wages at the time of the strike - Wigan players awaiting 3 months deferred wages and 80% of one months wage more or less add up to around a similar total of about 2 months outstanding wages.

Wigan players showed a completely different attitude in a comparable situation to the one Wheater and his mates were in!

Anyway water under the bridge now.

35Wigan in Administration - Page 2 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration on Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:44 pm

T.R.O.Y.


Nicolas Anelka
Nicolas Anelka
Sorry not following, had the Wigan players missed wages or not?

Thanks for posting Wheater video, interested to hear this actually what minutes are the comments you refer to? Imagine there’s a lot of dead air filling for 48 minutes!

36Wigan in Administration - Page 2 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration on Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:25 pm

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@T.R.O.Y. wrote:Sorry not following, had the Wigan players missed wages or not?

Thanks for posting Wheater video, interested to hear this actually what minutes are the comments you refer to? Imagine there’s a lot of dead air filling for 48 minutes!

They hadn't when the club went into Administration but they have since - and before last nights match.

About a year ago when I watched the video - iirc I even posted it up on Nuts at the time.

And if you think I'm going to watch it through all again just to find the times of the clips just for you - then you best think again!

37Wigan in Administration - Page 2 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration on Sat Jul 18, 2020 2:34 pm

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Charlton's 92nd minute equaliser has put Wigan right back in the mix - it puts them on 46 if the penalty points are applied but with a much better GD than Hull and Luton who are playing each other right now. If either team wins they'll technically be out of the bottom 3 at Wigan's expense so a draw would be the best result for the pie eaters.

38Wigan in Administration - Page 2 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration on Wed Jul 22, 2020 4:17 pm

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Just read that the EFL have applied the 12 point penalty with immediate effect which means that anything less than a win for Wigan tonight v Fulham sees them relegated.

39Wigan in Administration - Page 2 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration on Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:45 pm

wessy

wessy
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf
Wigan bite the dust awaiting appeal

40Wigan in Administration - Page 2 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration on Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:17 am

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Sluffy wrote:

Wigan will stay up, they are miles better than the clubs down the bottom even with 12 points taken from them.

Or not.

41Wigan in Administration - Page 2 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration on Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:40 am

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@wanderlust wrote:
@Sluffy wrote:

Wigan will stay up, they are miles better than the clubs down the bottom even with 12 points taken from them.

Or not.

Hahahaha!

I got this one wrong you voted for Brexit!

I know of the two which is the biggest boo boo!

Very Happy

42Wigan in Administration - Page 2 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration on Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:30 am

Norpig

Norpig
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
I was wondering if Wigan did manage to get a new owner before the appeal would the penalty still apply and it seems it has.

43Wigan in Administration - Page 2 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration on Fri Jul 24, 2020 7:52 am

Whitesince63


Nicolas Anelka
Nicolas Anelka
I think the penalty still has an asterisk at the side of it pending the appeal so I don’t think Barnsley can fully relax yet. Also, there are still potential penalties for Wednesday and Derby which if penalty points are administered could change the situation further. What a mess and once again final decisions to be made independently which could then be subject to appeal by the clubs or the EFL if they don’t like it.

44Wigan in Administration - Page 2 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration on Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:45 am

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Lisa Nandy's petition the Government to strengthen the football club ownership laws seems a good thing to sign up for although it's a bit late for Bury.

Sign Here

45Wigan in Administration - Page 2 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration on Fri Jul 24, 2020 2:07 pm

Boggersbelief

Boggersbelief
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Discussions with their preferred bidder have broken down.

46Wigan in Administration - Page 2 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration on Fri Jul 24, 2020 2:41 pm

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Boggersbelief wrote:Discussions with their preferred bidder have broken down.
I guess if a potential buyer thinks he's buying a Championship club and then finds he may be buying a L1 club it's bound to go tits up. Totally different risk/reward scenario - which is why FV deserve a bit of kudos for taking us on.

47Wigan in Administration - Page 2 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration on Fri Jul 24, 2020 3:09 pm

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@wanderlust wrote:
@Boggersbelief wrote:Discussions with their preferred bidder have broken down.
I guess if a potential buyer thinks he's buying a Championship club and then finds he may be buying a L1 club it's bound to go tits up. Totally different risk/reward scenario - which is why FV deserve a bit of kudos for taking us on.

Doesn't seem to be for that reason apparently (and I'm sure all putting in an offer would have known the possibility of relegation in any event) -

48Wigan in Administration - Page 2 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration on Fri Jul 24, 2020 7:53 pm

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
I've found this that explains the background much better than I did -

Wigan in Administration - Page 2 EdtSuOSXYAAJf9K?format=jpg&name=large

Wigan in Administration - Page 2 EdtSuulXsAEF5iQ?format=jpg&name=large

49Wigan in Administration - Page 2 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration on Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:00 pm

RangersDave

RangersDave
Mario Jardel
Mario Jardel
Wigan Athletic: Administrators to negotiate with second bidder after talks break down -

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53530653

50Wigan in Administration - Page 2 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration on Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:43 pm

RangersDave

RangersDave
Mario Jardel
Mario Jardel
And while i'm at it........

good for Barnsley!

https://www.barnsleyfc.co.uk/news/2020/july/club-statement/

51Wigan in Administration - Page 2 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration on Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:30 am

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
Story by Nixon in Sunday Paper

WIGAN'S administrators want a new buyer to pay the crisis club’s wages NEXT WEEK.

The hard-up outfit face a financial headache as they try to sell players in a hurry to sort out their bills.

Latics boss Paul Cook faces a new blow to his plans as interested buyers would need to fork out immediately for wages

Wigan's crisis is deepening but they are appealing against a 12-point penalty

But this new demand has shocked potential bidders who will have to fork out around £1million in salaries immediately.

Paul Cook’s squad are due their August pay cheques in full and the administrators want a buyer to sign up for this as they struggle to raise the funds by player sales.

Most will have cuts in their deals after relegation while some will have left to reduce the amount from its previous £1.6m level.

But it is an instant extra demand when any buyer is already under huge pressure to exchange contracts by Friday.

If the Wigan players cannot be paid within a fortnight then they can ALL give notice to leave for nothing, putting the club on the brink of meltdown.

52Wigan in Administration - Page 2 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration on Sun Jul 26, 2020 1:54 am

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
I've been having a mooch about on a couple of Wigan fan sites in view of the above and it's looking bad for them, real bad!

In nut shell what seems to have happened is this -

A Chinese bloke bought Wigan by means of a company he owns/majority shareholder IEC and has given it an interest free loan of £24.5m.

I can't see the loan ever being secured on the clubs assets so I assume it most be an unsecured loan?  It may only be a line of credit that hasn't even been drawn on but everybody seems to believe it has been received by the club.

Now Wigan lost around £9m last year and has dragged the business that owns the club down it terms of share value.

So much so it seems that it become a priority to get the club off its books.

This was done by the Chinese bloke selling it to himself and another bloke in a company they had set up between themselves called NLF.

The sale entailed a payment of £17.5m for the club and £24.5m for the repayment of the loan roughly £41m.  On top of that NLF had shown proof of evidence that they also had a further £25m to cover the clubs losses for the next two seasons.

Part of the deal was that the loan had to be repaid inside a year and could be recalled IN FULL with just (iirc) 3 weeks notice.

After the sale went through the Chinese bloke sold(?) his shares to the other bloke and thus completely distanced himself away from the club.

As soon as he had done that the other bloke triggering Administration!?!

I'm still unclear about £24.5m loan.

I think what has happened is that they paid £24.5 to the Chinese bloke and simply took over the loan already at the club instead.

The bottom line though is that they haven't put any 'new' money into the club resulting in suddenly it had no money to pay anyone and no likely income for the foreseeable future whilst they were in the summer break (or what's left of it) and until the crowds are allowed in again.  

(They can't sell ST's until they can guarantee they can complete next season and whilst in Admin).

IF there is a secured debt of £24.5m (I don't know where it is secured against if there is?) then that would have to be paid by anyone buying the club and even if it wasn't and was an unsecured loan it would still cost the new owners 25p in the £ (£6m or so).

On top of that wages are around £1m per month (if Nixon's story above is correct).

Chuck in the fact that the club faces relegation (although they have appealed) and if wages aren't the paid players can walk!

IF the club gets liquidated the players are not protected as Football Creditors and get ALL their wages no matter what) but simply become like everyone else and get what p in the £ that liquidation might bring them.  

In such circumstances I would think they would all be better off jumping ship as fast as they could.

Add in to all this the new season starts in about 6 weeks and I'd imagine the EFL would want to know definitely that the club is financially secure and not be mugged around like Bolton did to them.

I guess their future really depends on what this £24.5m interest free loan is all about, in that if it is secured on assets then nobody in their right minds will buy the club.  If it is unsecured, you are looking for someone to underwrite them to a tune of £6m (at 25p in £) plus a years trading loss at say another £7 or £8 million.

I guess that's just about doable if they keep hold of the players and can sell one or two (Robinson £10m, Moore £3m - perhaps?) but who is willing to take such a risk right now, especially stumping up £1m and completing due diligence in just a week???

As far as I'm aware Wigan own the stadium (in partnership with the council) and land, plus the players (at least for now) - that might not be enough to pay off the £24.5 loan and accruing running costs plus don't forget the new owners guaranteeing a further £25m to the EFL to cover losses for the next two seasons.

It's looking really bad for them unless they find a fairy godmother like we did with Sharon!


Some stuff I found -

Wigan in Administration - Page 2 Swiss-ramble-latics-finances

Pies’r’Us on the Latics Speyk Forum detailed his previous warnings:

I wrote to EFL in May and then the following to all TV and radio broadcaster, Wigan MP but was ignored..

“END OF THE PIER FOR WIGAN ATHLETIC?

Wigan Athletic have recently been sold and bought by the same person; Dr. Choi Chiu Fai Stanley. He is the chairman and majority shareholder of the last owner; IEC plc, and also majority shareholder of the new owning company ‘Next Leader Fund LP’. This has been approved by the EFL which renders their club ownership process to kiddies TV; ‘The Magic Roundabout’.

Dr. Stanley, has over 20 years experience in financial services and merger and acquisition projects. He also a renowned poker player in the far eastern gambling world through televised poker tournaments.

According to his letter sent to IEC plc shareholders on 8 May 2020 (link below), one of the principle reasons for selling the club and transferring ownership is that it will be financially advantageous to IEC in regard to a previous interest free loan of £24.36 million. IEC have provided a replacement loan via ‘the new owner’ and most importantly; it is interest bearing at 8%. This is now costing Wigan Athletic £37,846 A WEEK! The club have made an average loss over the last two years of circa £8.5 million which equates to £163,461 per week and therefore losses now total circa £200,000 per week.

For context; the present stock market capitalisation (value) of IEC plc is £36.48 million and is engaged in expensive court actions with tax authorities concerning 2 of it’s subsidiaries.

However, the terms require the capital sum to be repaid in 12 months and if the club defaults then the interest rate increases to 20% to which weekly payments on the £24.36 million loan amounts to £93,692 !”

Dr Stanley knows the company cannot pay these figures on their present income and so did the directors of the club and the EFL. So why was it allowed to happen?



Report by Adam Crafton of The Athletic (Football News)

53Wigan in Administration - Page 2 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration on Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:27 am

Whitesince63


Nicolas Anelka
Nicolas Anelka
I’ve also been keeping an eye on Latin’s Speyk stuffy and feel desperately sorry for the fans, who like us don’t deserve to be conned by a corrupt owner. As you’ve pointed out previously on here, the EFL have an enormously difficult time ensuring owners are fit and proper, especially when they are from places like HK but surely the warning signs over this bunch must have been there. In your analysis you mention Wigan could raise cash by selling players but why on earth would any club pay millions now when in possibly a couple of weeks they could sign them for free when those players can walk away if not paid. At least we had a genuine buyer who was prepared to endure the shitstorm Anderson threw at them, which I believe is to be fair why the EFL gave them such latitude, unfortunately I’m not sure Wigan have. I really fear from them because the finances just don’t add up and should their relegation be confirmed on the 31st, they would be even worse. I really do hope someone can put a rescue package together but I wouldn’t bet on it.

54Wigan in Administration - Page 2 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration on Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:28 pm

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@Whitesince63 wrote:I’ve also been keeping an eye on Latin’s Speyk stuffy and feel desperately sorry for the fans, who like us don’t deserve to be conned by a corrupt owner. As you’ve pointed out previously on here, the EFL have an enormously difficult time ensuring owners are fit and proper, especially when they are from places like HK but surely the warning signs over this bunch must have been there. In your analysis you mention Wigan could raise cash by selling players but why on earth would any club pay millions now when in possibly a couple of weeks they could sign them for free when those players can walk away if not paid. At least we had a genuine buyer who was prepared to endure the shitstorm Anderson threw at them, which I believe is to be fair why the EFL gave them such latitude, unfortunately I’m not sure Wigan have. I really fear from them because the finances just don’t add up and should their relegation be confirmed on the 31st, they would be even worse. I really do hope someone can put a rescue package together but I wouldn’t bet on it.

You raise three points there - EFL fit and Proper ownership, player sales and there being a genuine buyer (allowing the EFL) to start the new season whilst still in Administration).

EFL - FPP

There's only so much the EFL can physically do in their checks and any negative decision can be challenged in the courts.

In simple terms the actions of buying of one registered limited company by another are regulated on the stock exchange - to prevent fraud - the sale of Wigan Football Club Ltd, Wigan Stadium Ltd, and Wigan Holding Company by the Chinese blokes Ltd company to a new Ltd company (of which he was the majority owner) were all regulated and approved by the HK Stock Exchange.

Further more proof of funds of something like £67m (£17.5 purchase price,£24.5 settlement of loan to the Chinese bloke and £25m to cover two year trading deficit) was provided by the new company to the EFL to exist!

There were no red flags for them to prevent the sale and purchase.

On top of that the sale occurred mid season - if the EFL had said no, where did that leave Wigan football club?  

The new owner could simply do exactly what he has done, put the club into Administration, not fund it and recall the £24.5m loan it has.

What exactly do people believe the EFL can do?

Seems to me they did everything they possibly could in the time, circumstances and within the law.  They allowed in effect one owner who had run the club fine for a year or two, to sell it to himself to another company he was the majority owner in and showed proof of having £66m to back him up, whilst at the same time the HK Stock Exchange confirmed that the new company buying Wigan was legit and met all their legal requirements.

Player sales.

Players are bound to the club/(company) by contracts of employment.

If the company doesn't pay their wages the contract is void and they can walk away.  There are some 'rules' to this which from memory go something like this - if wages are not paid within a month then the players can give 2 weeks notice (following that month period) to terminate their contract and walk away.

I'm not sure how being paid 20% of their wages effects that because the Administrator has paid them that but I imagine they still have the same rights?

However if someone buys the club and starts to pay their wages again then they are still contractually tied to the club again.

So anyone wanting to buy Wigan players now either have to deal with the Administrator and agree a price (and almost certainly full payment of the fee rather than payment in instalment), or wait until the players can walk away as free agents and cross their fingers that no one buys the club in the meantime.

On the other hand a perspective buyer needs to buy the club before the players can walk, in order to 'sell' them themselves at a price and terms agreeable to all.

It is up to the buying club to weigh up the risks and do the right thing for them - pay the Administrators value (they are required to raise as much as they can for the creditors of the business in Administration) wait and try to get the player as a free agent (but then the player can negotiate with all clubs for the best deal for him), or mistime it and a new buyer steps in and then you have to deal with them instead.

Starting the season in Administration.

Well we did but I don't think that will happen in this case until the Administrator prepared to buy the club and show proof of funds sufficient to do that and meet the EFL's requirement of having £25m to fund the clubs losses for the next two seasons.

Seems unlikely to happen but I guess you never know and I think the EFL will want a certainty that the club will be sold.  

I simply can't see that happening and the EFL will do a 'Bury' and not allow them to start the season.


Basically I see all this as the Chinese bloke basically liquidating the club to recoup as much as he has put into the club already and the longer the Administration takes the more other creditors build up (players wages, taxman, Administrators fees) and the less there is for him to get back.


And finally and despite nearly everyone believing this - there is no proof, 15 months after Anderson has left the club - that he's done anything corrupt during his ownership period.

55Wigan in Administration - Page 2 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration on Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:51 pm

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Difficult to see how Lisa Nandy's proposal for Government intervention into buying football clubs is operable unless they make footie a special case as outside football acquisitions and sales like this are legal and fairly commonplace.

56Wigan in Administration - Page 2 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration on Sun Jul 26, 2020 6:14 pm

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@wanderlust wrote:Difficult to see how Lisa Nandy's proposal for Government intervention into buying football clubs is operable unless they make footie a special case as outside football acquisitions and sales like this are legal and fairly commonplace.

Tbh I don't even know what the proposal is as I don't believe whatever it is she advocates will happen simply because regulations across all business exist already and football is not a special case.

Indeed I don't even believe that the owner/s of the club have even acted illegally.

Yes it may well seem a weird set of circumstances and more than a few rumours (illegal betting scam on Wigan getting relegated) but on the face of it the club WAS insolvent (it couldn't pay the wages when they fell due) and took the decision to enter Administration to either sell the club to someone else or as prelude to liquidation.

The player sales to keep them going as far as I'm aware, could only happen under Administrative powers, so the only other alternative to Admin was for the owners to fund the costs (around £1m per month) until the transfer window was opened.

They clearly did not want to put any of their own money into the club.

Yes the EFL asked for proof of funding for the club for the next two years (£25m) and apparently received it but they doesn't seem to have the power to compel them to actually put in the money when need though!

Maybe there could be an argument for putting such funds into escrow accounts perhaps but I can't see that happening either.

Apparently there does seem to be some question as to whether the £24.5m was ever put into the club - it is claimed the Administrator says it hadn't but I've not tracked that down if he had but I don't think that is the key issue for Wigan right now, what is, is finding a buyer willing to buy the club and assets, plus run the club at an anticipated loss of £25m for the next two years and imo do their due diligence and complete in the next 6 weeks before the new season kicks off.

If no one is willing to do that they most certainly aren't going to do that a find another £24.5 if the loan is genuine and secured!

It seems to me the owner is simply liquidating his asset as quickly as he could to avoid on going costs, which if he is, is breaking no laws.

57Wigan in Administration - Page 2 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration on Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:13 pm

observer


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
@Sluffy wrote:

Tbh I don't even know what the proposal is as I don't believe whatever it is she advocates will happen simply because regulations across all business exist already and football is not a special case.

Indeed I don't even believe that the owner/s of the club have even acted illegally.

Yes it may well seem a weird set of circumstances and more than a few rumours (illegal betting scam on Wigan getting relegated) but on the face of it the club WAS insolvent (it couldn't pay the wages when they fell due) and took the decision to enter Administration to either sell the club to someone else or as prelude to liquidation.

The player sales to keep them going as far as I'm aware, could only happen under Administrative powers, so the only other alternative to Admin was for the owners to fund the costs (around £1m per month) until the transfer window was opened.

They clearly did not want to put any of their own money into the club.

Yes the EFL asked for proof of funding for the club for the next two years (£25m) and apparently received it but they doesn't seem to have the power to compel them to actually put in the money when need though!

Maybe there could be an argument for putting such funds into escrow accounts perhaps but I can't see that happening either.

Apparently there does seem to be some question as to whether the £24.5m was ever put into the club - it is claimed the Administrator says it hadn't but I've not tracked that down if he had but I don't think that is the key issue for Wigan right now, what is, is finding a buyer willing to buy the club and assets, plus run the club at an anticipated loss of £25m for the next two years and imo do their due diligence and complete in the next 6 weeks before the new season kicks off.

If no one is willing to do that they most certainly aren't going to do that a find another £24.5 if the loan is genuine and secured!

It seems to me the owner is simply liquidating his asset as quickly as he could to avoid on going costs, which if he is, is breaking no laws.
Do they need to establish an escrow account in the future to ensure the money is available ?

58Wigan in Administration - Page 2 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration on Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:33 pm

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@observer wrote:
Do they need to establish an escrow account in the future to ensure the money is available ?

I was just musing to myself really.

In short the EFL rules say ant new owner has to show proof of funding for the club they want to buy for the next two years - in this case and according to the journalist in the video I posted up a couple of posts back, that is £25m.

(I don't know how they calculate the amounts but I guess it must be based on having access to the clubs accounts at the time and previous years?).

Anyway, although that is a condition of approving the sale, there doesn't seem to be any ability to make the buyer actually put the money in when required.

I was really saying unless that money is put to one side to be invested into the club and ringfenced from being spent on anything else, then how can you ensure the money shown as proof to finance the club is actually spent on financing the club?

I doubt such a system could be achievable because who has £25m hanging about for two years simply to underwrite a second/third tier club - how much would they have to set aside if they wanted to buy a top PL club?

So it's good in so far as it goes that at least the EFL won't allow a club to be bought without proof of sufficient funds being available but the weakness of course is that there is no measure to enforce compliance to put the money in when needed.

I guess you could put it into a contract but by the time you enforce it through court action the club may well have gone bust - hence me musing about holding the funds by an independent third party or something along those lines.

59Wigan in Administration - Page 2 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration on Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:57 pm

observer


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
@Sluffy wrote:

I was just musing to myself really.

In short the EFL rules say ant new owner has to show proof of funding for the club they want to buy for the next two years - in this case and according to the journalist in the video I posted up a couple of posts back, that is £25m.

(I don't know how they calculate the amounts but I guess it must be based on having access to the clubs accounts at the time and previous years?).

Anyway, although that is a condition of approving the sale, there doesn't seem to be any ability to make the buyer actually put the money in when required.

I was really saying unless that money is put to one side to be invested into the club and ringfenced from being spent on anything else, then how can you ensure the money shown as proof to finance the club is actually spent on financing the club?

I doubt such a system could be achievable because who has £25m hanging about for two years simply to underwrite a second/third tier club - how much would they have to set aside if they wanted to buy a top PL club?

So it's good in so far as it goes that at least the EFL won't allow a club to be bought without proof of sufficient funds being available but the weakness of course is that there is no measure to enforce compliance to put the money in when needed.

I guess you could put it into a contract but by the time you enforce it through court action the club may well have gone bust - hence me musing about holding the funds by an independent third party or something along those lines.

Covid has made American leagues re-think how to deal with revenues.  The NHL already has an escrow in place and the NFL is looking at it.  Perhaps it is time for the EFL to come up with a viable option to hold monies that would not inhibit the lower leagues, but guarantee the club's future?

https://www.nfl.com/news/nflpa-tells-board-league-has-proposed-35-player-salary-escrow
[url=https://www.tampabay.com/sports/lightning/2020/07/03/what-is-the-nhl-escrow-system-and-why-is-it-relevant-right-now/#:~:text=Lightning-,What is the NHL escrow system%2C and why is it,revenue before play can resume.&text=After the season%2C total revenue,to make up the difference.]https://www.tampabay.com/sports/lightning/2020/07/03/what-is-the-nhl-escrow-system-and-why-is-it-relevant-right-now/#:~:text=Lightning-,What%20is%20the%20NHL%20escrow%20system%2C%20and%20why%20is%20it,revenue%20before%20play%20can%20resume.&text=After%20the%20season%2C%20total%20revenue,to%20make%20up%20the%20difference.[/url]

60Wigan in Administration - Page 2 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration on Sun Jul 26, 2020 10:37 pm

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@observer wrote:Covid has made American leagues re-think how to deal with revenues.  The NHL already has an escrow in place and the NFL is looking at it.  Perhaps it is time for the EFL to come up with a viable option to hold monies that would not inhibit the lower leagues, but guarantee the club's future?

https://www.nfl.com/news/nflpa-tells-board-league-has-proposed-35-player-salary-escrow
[url=https://www.tampabay.com/sports/lightning/2020/07/03/what-is-the-nhl-escrow-system-and-why-is-it-relevant-right-now/#:~:text=Lightning-,What is the NHL escrow system%2C and why is it,revenue before play can]https://www.tampabay.com/sports/lightning/2020/07/03/what-is-the-nhl-escrow-system-and-why-is-it-relevant-right-now/#:~:text=Lightning-,What%20is%20the%20NHL%20escrow%20system%2C%20and%20why%20is%20it,revenue%20before%20play%20can%20resume.&text=After%20the%20season%2C%20total%20revenue,to%20make%20up%20the%20difference.[/url]

Interesting, thank you.

I somehow can't see that happening universally here in the foreseeable future because of the various football bodies have different priorities and even some like the EFL have different priorities at different levels within the tiers they manage.

Without wishing to teach you to suck eggs the PL stands alone from the EFL and broke away from them and it's basically all about earning money.  The EFL, which now is basically the stepping stone to the PL can be split in to two, the Championship where clubs are (or have) spent big to get in the PL and gone into huge debt which is sustained (or not) by the club owner and at the lower level the 'tiny' clubs simply living on gate receipts and now looking to vote in wage caps in order to keep the clubs in some sort of financial sustainability.

Corvid has caused the PL to complete their season (or hand back billions the clubs have received in advanced screening rights for games that hadn't been played, forced the EFL to play out the Championship because of legal threats from clubs seeking to get promoted to the PL but at the same time cancel L1 and L2 to save the clubs from going bust due to no revenue stream due to playing behind closed doors and imposing an artificial points per game average to determine final positions, playoff places and relegation.

You could even consider another level too, higher than the PL of a breakaway European super league as some clubs such as Real Madrid and PSG seem to have suffered huge financial losses and may well seek to form the long dreamed off 12 clubs or so in Europe playing amongst themselves and pocketing all the broadcast rights that would undoubtedly come there way.

I think this latter European Super League would be more in line with the Nationwide sport bodies you have become accustomed to in the USA.

All just my opinion of course but I don't think anybody in their right minds would deposit £25m on escrow to buy a club of Wigan's size with a current trading deficit projected for the next two years, with crowds of less than 10k (that's when crowds are allowed in!) who in all likelihood will have to pay say £10m to buy the club, stadium and assets (and possibly a further £24.5m for this mysterious interest free loan that may or may not be genuine???).

I just can't see such a model working at the moment for the EFL.

Maybe there will be a required rethink following Covid but as it stands the clubs vote on proposals and as we've seen they always vote in the best interests of them rather thanselves the best interest of the sport.

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