Wigan in Administration

A certain person could start an argument in that room quite easily 

Norpig wrote:A certain person could start an argument in that room quite easily 

Oh no he couldn't!

wanderlust wrote:
Oh no he couldn't!

you starting? 

During the interminable months of Administration, when everybody and his dog were explaining what they thought was REALLY going on behind the scenes, where the money had gone, who owed what to whom and which company was really a subsidiary of another, I became extremely bored and confused, developed a severe headache and decided to give up altogether trying to understand WTF was going on.
I avoided any stuff on here related to it and basically stayed away from the forum for a good while.
I would be extremely grateful if someone could spare a couple of minutes to explain to me what actually went down with this Blumarble loan. Everybody on here seems to reference it as being a shady deal. Basically, I know we got the loan but nothing about the shenanigans that went down with it.
Could someone enlighten me please.

i'm no expert but from what i remember the blumarble loan was what DH borrowed to enable him to finance his part of the takeover. Trouble was the interest rate was massive (24% i think?) and needed paying back a month later which he could never do.
The interest kept pilling up and DH couldn't afford to repay it so when he and KA fell out and he bought DH's share then the debt passed to him which KA always disputed.

I'm sure Sluffy and even my friend nine bob can explain it better or correct me if i've got some bits wrong.

Sluffy wrote:

Nah you won't get banned for that Norpig.

When I was much younger one of the most popular books going around at that time was by Dale Carnegie entitled How to Win Friends and Influence People, clearly Bob's not here to do that!!!



Probably best if you just put him on block so as not to see his posts.

I know its not the WI and I can't say I'm all that bothered but there might be somebody interested in where you do set the bar, Sluffy.

boltonbonce wrote:
Here's a good avi for whoever wants it.

Depressing innit, Boncey?

A guy spends over 190 million quid and the last 19 years of his life trying to keep afloat the football club he's supported since he was a lad and hardly anybody notices and hardly anybody cares.

I don't know what went through the mind of Sue Davies at Eddie's memorial service when she saw the empty pews and the pews with only one person in them but I know what went through mine and I don't expect I'll ever forget that.

But its like Mrs Bobsworth says, there's no point in appealing to the better nature of those who have no better nature.

Norpig wrote:i'm no expert but from what i remember the blumarble loan was what DH borrowed to enable him to finance his part of the takeover. Trouble was the interest rate was massive (24% i think?) and needed paying back a month later which he could never do.
The interest kept pilling up and DH couldn't afford to repay it so when he and KA fell out and he bought DH's share then the debt passed to him which KA always disputed.

I'm sure Sluffy and even my friend nine bob can explain it better or correct me if i've got some bits wrong.

Like you said, you're no expert.

Norpig's on the right track but it was far more worse than that.

I'll try to give as brief an explanation as possible

Eddie Davies gives up bailing out the club with his own personal money and it falls into Administration.

The deal to sell the club was for £1 but that included all the debts the club carried as well, which were considerable.

It was agreed to sell it to Holdsworth's 'consortium' on the basis that it put £5m immediate NEW investment into the club to pay the existing immediate debts (such as the taxman, St Johns Ambulance and everybody else who was owed money apart from the big investors such as Davies, Warburton, James who had 'secured' their debts on the clubs assets anyway - the aim being that everybody got their money back and not at 25p in the £ type thing) and a further £2.5m being available to fund ongoing costs thereafter.

Holdsworth showed proof his company Sports Shield had taken out a loan with BluMarble to cover the £5m and brought in Ken Anderson to commit to putting in the £2.5m to fund the club thereafter.

So all should have been good, right?

Wrong.

It turns out that Holdsworth did indeed have a loan from BluMarble but no security/assets of his own to guarantee the payment back but some how (and I still don't know how he managed it legally?) he got BWFC to put its assets up as security if Holdsworth defaulted.

My best guess fwiw is that the loan was going to be secured on the assets of his then partner at the time (a bloke called Gordon who ran an investment fund but who backed out at the last minute and that BWFC was in fact only intended to be the guarantor of the loan in case of default.

Anyway the loan was granted by BluMarble to Sports Shield (note NOT BWFC) on an interest rate of just 8% iirc - remember this point it becomes significant later on.

So Holdsworth and Anderson becomes our new owners - Sports Shield puts the money into the club from the Blumarble loan but something is immediately very wrong!!!

Anderson is expecting the £5m new investment from Holdsworth as his part of the deal but only £4m is received from Dean's Sports Shield company!

Where's the other million Ken asks, it went on setting up the deal Dean replies!

A million for you to take out a loan???

Oh by the way Dean says, the interest rate I'm charging on 'my' loan (from Sport's Shield into the club remember - BluMarble had loaned it to Sports Shield on their terms - ie 8% interest) is going to be 24%!!!

So there's already a million short on the original agreement, and an eye watering 24% interest to pay on it (over three years I think the deal between Sports Shield and BWFC was iirc?) and then Holdsworth further lobbed in the hand grenade that he personally/Sports Shield hasn't the assets to pay back the loan (which was due in full just 10 days after the takeover of the club) and that the club would become liable as its assets were used to guarantee its repayment!!!

So Anderson found himself a part owner of a club he thought had £5m new investment being put into the club by Dean to cover the £5m outstanding debts that needed paying off immediately, and with £5m of assets still available in the club that could be used to used to secure future loans again if ever required - to one where only £4m was put into the club and that only because the £5m assets the club had, had already been pawned for Holdsworth to get the BluMarble loan in the first place!!! (In short he thought on day one there would be £10m in the club (£5m from Dean and £5m existing assets but in fact he found out there was only £4m - being the £5m assets had been turned into the £4m the club actually received).

Holdsworth was already seemingly up £1m (I word it like that because I don't want to be sued!) used up all the clubs assets, putting in the pot only £4m to pay off the £5m outstanding needed and leaving nothing left for the club to put up as security for loans to run the club from that point on.

He was left holding the baby of Holdsworth (Sports Shield) having no money, Holdsworth himself having no money and Anderson faced with an immediate £1m short fall and no new money coming into the club as expected but £5m being taking out of the club instead!!!

If that wasn't enough Holdsworth fully expected that he become the Chairman of the club (the top dog) and own half of it - and get half the proceeds of the sale of the club as and when sold in the future - yet Anderson having to presumably put in £1m of his own money in right away to make up the £5m to pay off the creditors, still required to put a further £2.5m of his own money to keep it going as per the original agreement (the club was of course trading at a loss each and everyday).

On top of that the £5m assets that were there - and which he half owned remember - had gone as such to having to be used to clear Holdsworth/Sport Shield debt (it wasn't to clear a BWFC debt - BWFC could have gone to BluMarble directly if they had wanted to, get the full amount of money and only pay 8% interest - instead they ended up getting from Sport Shield £4m at 24%!!!)

Is it any wonder Anderson said stuff that for a game of soldiers!

Where's the NEW £5m that was agree to be put in the club from your side?  How are you going to settle YOUR debt with YOUR assets (not the clubs of which I own half of as joint owner) and why the hell are you charging the club 24% interest when you are only paying 8% to BluMarble (of which of course you aren't paying them anything at all in the first place!!!)

All the 24% monthly interest going into Sports Shield who defaulted BluMarble immediately and as far as I know never a penny to it let alone the 8% interest they were charging it!!!

Maybe now you can see why Anderson didn't trust Holdsworth right from day one and refused to put any of his money into the club because whatever he eventually came to sell it for Holdsworth was going to get half of anyway - and Deano had never put a penny of his own money into the pot in the first place!

The original business plan I believe was to take on the club, turn it around and sell it on for a profit.  I believe the idea was for Holdsworth to put in the original £5m and for Anderson to fund the clubs loss for two years at a rate of £2.5m per year, so at the end of two years they would have put the same amount into it and get an equal share out of it from the sale and expected profit.

Instead Anderson had bought a millstone of a club mired in debt and with it's last £5m assets plundered by Holdsworth to basically fund his part of the deal to buy the club, which started off still with £1m owed to the creditors (because Holdsworth had only divided up £4m and not the £5m as he was expected to do - and even if he could keep the club going financially until he sold it - half of the sale profit would go to Holdsworth who hadn't put a penny into it and was now in the highest paid position in the club as Head of Sports (or whatever it was called) and would have also received roughly another £1.25m being 24% interest on the loan he was charging the clu (and not paying on to BluMarble at the 8% rate they were charging him!

Anderson had no choice but to 'buy' Holdsworth out before he could attempt to sell the club whilst at the same time attempt to keep the club going although it was loss making and by not throwing his personal wealth into a bottomless pit like Eddie did - doing so.

Anderson was never going to fund the club out of his pocket per se, it was simply a business deal with two equal partners putting in £5m apiece and selling the business within say two years for a profit and thus getting their money back having turned the club around, leaving it in a better place then when they bought it and everybody being happy.

Holdsworth's BluMarble dealings killed that stone dead from day one.  Anderson couldn't sell the club there and then because it was instantly in a £1m worse off position than what he had just bought it for (the £5m assets had turned into a £4m cash injection instead) and there was hardly a queue of anyone wanting to buy it before Holdsworth and he did - maybe he should have cut his losses and walked out but who knows what legal commitments he had made at the time?  

Anyway he didn't and chose to fight which meant squeezing Holdsworth out, running the club on a shoestring and all but insolvent in itself, sort out the millstone of the BluMarble loan and all the rest that flowed from it is history.

The BluMarble loan secured on the clubs existing assets didn't bring in the NEW investment into the club as was needed and at the same time took away the last safety net the club had to stop it becoming insolvent and totally dependant on the owners personal wealth of which Holdsworth had non and Anderson had never had a single intention of putting into the club in the first place.

Iles and the ST seem to believe Holdsworth did nothing at all wrong and they made it known they believed Anderson was the man in the wrong and everything else after that turned very toxic indeed.

The truth is Holdsworth's BluMarble loan secured against the club (and only resulting in £4m and not £5m being received by the club) is the prime cause of all the shit that happened and continues to hang over the club and it's current new owners.

Hope this in someway helps you and others understand better what actually happened.

Ten Bobsworth wrote:

Norpig wrote:i'm no expert but from what i remember the blumarble loan was what DH borrowed to enable him to finance his part of the takeover. Trouble was the interest rate was massive (24% i think?) and needed paying back a month later which he could never do.
The interest kept pilling up and DH couldn't afford to repay it so when he and KA fell out and he bought DH's share then the debt passed to him which KA always disputed.

I'm sure Sluffy and even my friend nine bob can explain it better or correct me if i've got some bits wrong.

Like you said, you're no expert.

It's a decent attempt from someone who admits to not really understanding these things - better than most I would think and certainly far more than Iles has ever understood.

And of course non of us of here could ever get close to the knowledge and expertise Norpig has in his own professional career.

Brave of him to even try to make a public explanation I thought.

Fair play to him trying to help others until the cavalry arrived!

(God help us if I'm the cavalry though!!!)

Ten Bobsworth wrote:I know its not the WI and I can't say I'm all that bothered but there might be somebody interested in where you do set the bar, Sluffy.

I've always tried to think of our forum as being somewhat like being in the crowd at the match and accepting that things you hear aren't always PC or what you yourself would say but what you would probably put up with.

Stuff you hear that makes you want to go and stand/sit somewhere else or call them out for is the stuff that needs moderating on here.

Fwiw I don't have a problem with you having your views and posting them, nor others wishing you'd put a sock in them for airing them - you get stuff like that all the time on the terraces. Where I try to step in is to attempt to keep the peace between everybody - which of course I can't do to everybody's satisfaction - but hopefully enough to keep everybody just about tolerating everyone else.

That's my aim anyway.

I'm sorry if you feel you are getting got at, but I'm happy in a way you are giving it back too - if that makes sense?

I wouldn't like people leaving for not feeling comfortable on here (I nearly did myself as I said at one point) but I also think everyone has the right to say what they want within reason and hope others can be man enough to accept such without overly reacting.

Whether I achieve it though is another matter.

Hopefully I get it right more than wrong, I guess that's for others to judge.

I thought nobody is interested, Sluffy!

You may have captured the flavour of the pot but I would question some of the ingredients.

I believe Holdsworth was a man of straw and worth precious little. A house in Droitwich worth maybe £400K (possibly with a mortgage) and not much else.

Anderson had a bit of wool on his back but unlikely to be anywhere near the kind  of money needed to fund BWFC.

The first hurdle was the court and the second the EFL and its my understanding that both were told that there was £7.5m as a rescue fund. They are unlikely to have been told that £5m of this was due for repayment within days of the takeover. The issue of Mr Gordon or anyone else ready to step in is sketchy and, without evidence, I would suggest lacks credibility. 

The takeover was a transfer to two £1 companies formed by Holdsworth and Anderson respectively with no evidence of any funds being provided by either or likely to be provided by either.

As you say the £5m became £4m with punitive interest rates added if not repaid by the repayment date only a few days after it had been advanced.

I believe the other £2.5m was almost certainly Eddie Davies ready to chip in again when needed and  it was needed to keep the show on the road in 2017.

Meanwhile Anderson had a highly paid CEO, Holdsworth, with no experience of running anything of significance and Blumarble demanding their money back which he couldn't pay. He managed to hold them back on the basis that only Holdsworth had signed over the 'deeds to the ranch' and the security wasn't legally enforceable.

With quite a degree of negotiating skill, Anderson managed to hold  Blumarble off for two and a half years and got them to settle for a fraction of the interest charges they were entitled to. But that was Eddie's money too, Eddie dying only days later.

I know of no reason for anyone to criticise Blumarble though it is possible that they could have been more cautious in the first instance.

http://forbes-finance.com/exclusive-will-the-efl-let-chris-farnell-take-over-wigan-athletic/

more drama ?

Thanks, I still have a few areas that don't add up to my mind but I think we are more or less in the same ball park.

The EFL part is interesting if you refer to Iles recent article on Holdsworth interview to BBC radio where he said -

Holdsworth felt the checks done on him and his business plan – which involved a high-interest loan from finance firm BluMarble in its early stages – were adequate.

"For me personally, and the finance people we were using, they had to pass quite an extensive period of questions - the same as myself," he said.

"I felt, for me personally, the EFL had done a good job - passports and anti-money laundering - it wasn't something which you could just be blasé about. You had to give that, and they had to approve it."

And also this about Anderson -

Anderson passed the EFL’s fit and proper tests and provided the necessary proof of funding, which eventually saw the deal sanctioned by the league after several weeks.

https://forum.boltonnuts.co.uk/t21519-it-seemed-fine-holdsworth-addresses-anderson-joint-takeover-in-2016

Seems to imply to me that Anderson was looking to get involved with a club - why would he have gone through the EFL process "several weeks" earlier if all he did was simply step into buying BWFC on the day at court at the very last minute?

I'm not saying his plan was to buy BWFC but isn't it a bit odd there being someone just happened to be on hand having just gone through EFL approval, when they were suddenly needed?  How many people go through EFL checks just on the off-chance and similarly why are the EFL doing checks on someone who isn't clearly closely seeking to become an owner of an EFL club shortly thereafter?

So clearly the EFL checks are on the individuals/consortium's ability to provide proof of funding and not the £1 company's that ended up owning the club.

My punt is that Davies believed Bruce Gordon was the original guarantor of Holdsworth BluMarble loan and when he pulled out Davies authorised Marland the clubs secretary to witness Holdsworth signature on the document securing the loan against the clubs assets on the actual date of the take over.  

My reasoning goes something like this (and which you kindly give me understanding enough for me to ponder on) as the loan's settlement date was just 10 days after completion of buying BWFC it seems clear that before that time BluMarble must have had agreed the loan in principle and gone through the EFL tests - that certainly couldn't be done at the last minute.  In order for BluMarble to loan the money they would have needed first security/guarantor of final settlement.

Holdsworth hadn't the money but Gordon would have.

If Gordon had recourse to withdraw his guarantor status prior to the loan being 'activated' then Holdsworth could not have been given the money and the sale would have collapsed and BWFC would have been forced into Administration (and presumably for reasons known unto Eddie not seemingly an acceptable course of action to him?).  For the deal to progress the only way it could within the timespan it had was to step up to having the club itself become the guarantor of the loan.

I have no explanation why Davies did this as clearly Holdsworth never had the security to take on the BluMarble loan in the first place.

However it would give an explanation as to why BluMarble would give a loan to Sports Shield who never had any assets in the first place and ended up securing them against BWFC - Marland (club secretary) would certainly not have acted without Eddies authority first - and no doubt in my mind the form would have been predated and signed in advance of the actual sale date.

As for who was going to put the extra £2.5m in maybe it was always going to be Eddie under the pretext of it being from Anderson but then if you think about it what was the point of the whole exercise - being that Eddie would had put £5m in for Holdsworth and the £2.5m from Anderson - he may well have just paid everything himself and keep control and ownership for a while longer wouldn't you think?

My speculation is that the plan genuinely was to attract £5m of NEW investment (and not from BWFC), that Gordon was underwriting it all and when he dropped out Eddie pressed ahead by propping up the deal - and a further £2.5m to cover trading losses per year.

Maybe even Anderson was in on the plan and happy to still go on that basis with Eddie in effect being his real partner and not Holdsworth who legally was but the wheels fell off big time when only £4m came into the club and details emerged about the loan shark interest rate Holdsworth attached to it.

Clearly at that point all trust was lost.  Holdsworth had saddled the club with a loan to his company at 24% interest for three years whilst not having the means to pay off BluMarble just 10 days after the purchase of BWFC.

Maybe the idea was for Gordon to settle the debt and charge Holdsworth the 24% interest for doing so and Holdsworth just passed it on to the club?

Whatever the plan might have been it didn't happen, Sport Shield defaulted on the loan, had a only put £4m into the club and was charging it 24% interest on £5m for the privilege!

It would also go someway as to explain why Eddie still funded the pay-off of the BluMarble debt on the club when his confidence in Ken had probably been exhausted by then?

Whichever way anyone looks at things though the setting of the BluMarble loan against BWFC assets is central to everything that followed - maybe someone had forgot than when Anderson bought the club in partnership for £1 not only did he get the debt with it but he also got £2.5m assets as well, which was 'spent' without his consent and quite frankly should not have been.

The BluMarble loan was the keystone to everything toppling down thereafter.

Would make a good story for a journalist to write about wouldn't you think!

wessy wrote:http://forbes-finance.com/exclusive-will-the-efl-let-chris-farnell-take-over-wigan-athletic/

more drama ?

Good spot Wessy!

This week, Wigan Athletic administrators have received a so called “substantial deposit” from what they call a preferred Spanish bidder for the Wigan Athletic takeover.

Whilst the administrators Begbys Traynor have reported the bidder wants to stay anonymous, we now know why as the Spanish bidders are a clever disguise and distraction for the involvement of Chris Farnell, the high profile UK sports lawyer.

Due to the lack of success Farnell has demonstrated with other clubs. Wigan fans are fearing confirmation that the worst news yet is to follow.

Farnell was previously involved in the liquidation of Northern English club, Bury, and also has a string of associations with other clubs including Charlton Athletic, who have suffered mismanagement, as well as some of football’s shadier characters.

Whilst Farnell’s past worries Wigan supporters, Farnell is well known for representing some of the world’s biggest talents including Tyson Fury, Cristiano Ronaldo as well as football managers such as Roberto Martinez.

Pulling the strings in a master plan to get around the EFL regulations, the UK laywer is working closely with said football manager, Roberto Martinez and some Spanish investors. A tactic once tried by Farnell before, when a neighbour and friend of Farnell, Manchester business man Paul Elliot, was thought to be a convenient stooge for the sale of Charlton Athletic. The plan failed. It’s clear to see Farnell still has his eyes on the prize, and is doesn’t give up easily even when EFL roadblocks are put up against him.

Whilst the EFL puts procedures in place to protect itself from sports criminals and protect the interests of football clubs, Wigan fans eagerly await to see if Farnell’s attempt to get his hands on the club will be successful.

If this takeover commences, and the Wigan fails, there will be nobody else left to blame but the EFL.

Who will be the next club to go?


It does seem like more drama to come if there's any truth in this article as I can't see it being verified from any place else?

Time will reveal all in due course no doubt!

I think we can safely say, Sluffy, that it didn't all happen on the court day. We can also say that neither Iles nor Holdsworth can be wholly relied upon as witnesses.
 
The EFL tests are essentially two fold. Owners and directors tests for the individuals
and financial tests for the business proposal. I expect that they will also have money laundering regs to comply with which will require photocopies of passports simply to confirm that the persons they are dealing with are who they say there are.
 
It remains unclear exactly how and when Anderson appeared on the scene and Iles has never dealt with it. There’s a lot Iles has never dealt with but he rarely allows an opportunity to pass without getting in one of his sly digs. However, it is clear that Inner Circle Investments (the company Anderson used) was not acquired by Anderson until 2 March 2016, just eight days before Blumarble were given security over the whole shebang.

It seems to me understandable why Holdsworth would want a finance man involved but not so understandable why they would want him.  But both Sue and Eddie must have been extremely concerned, not only at the massive haemorrhaging of money, but the toll the stress was taking on Eddie’s health. He needed to draw a line under his ownership.

It is speculative as to who knew what and when but Ken Anderson and Eddie Davies were certainly not novices and I find it a bit difficult to think that they should have been taken by surprise by Dean Holdsworth but it cost a pretty penny and took a long time to see him off. Just summat else Iles has never dealt with, though 'he knows you know'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBm9UbAYXmo

Anyway as this is the Wiggin thread, it only seems fair to compare and contrast Iles performance with the Wiggin lad.

Agree with all that Bob.

It seems to me that somethings were done at short notice and other things pre-planned suggesting the 'master plan' whatever it was, was altered at the last moment to fit the changed circumstances.

For example Holdsworth and his "finance people" who he were "using" clearly had to pass the EFL tests and were pre-planned for - Anderson passing the tests on both him and his finance also - but he clearly purchased what was to become Inner Circle Investments 'off the shelf' from a company SPW Directors Ltd that seems to provide such companies, at short notice?

Like you I can't believe Holdsworth was the brains behind everything and Davies stupid, so it's hard for me to fathom why Eddie went with him to buy the club knowing he had no money - or why the BluMarble loan was secured on BWFC assets - and I'm certain that Davies must have allowed that for a reason - the only one that I can come up with is that of being a guarantor of the loan - presumably believing that it would never come to that?

Anderson has shown himself completely astute in the ways of business and it's hard to imagine Eddie getting into bed with him knowingly unless he absolutely had to?

Seems very odd Gordon pulled out at the last minute and Ken was already there and EFL cleared (with newly bought company) to step in at a moments notice?

Eddie could easily have filed for Admin, I remember reading at the time he had even filed for it - but chose for whatever the reason to go with penniless Dean, the BluMarble loan against BWFC assets and Anderson, who presumably was relatively unknown to him at the time, coming in as a partner to Holdsworth and in your opinion not even putting the £2.5m into the club from his own money but that Eddie would provide that later?

I can't see in that scenario any point in handing over ownership for him to pay both sides of the purchase (the £5m to Holdsworth from BWFC assets leveraged and giving Ken the £2.5m to put in when needed???).  

If he's going to that AND give up control of the company to someone with no money and someone he doesn't know but with an incredibly bad history behind him then why not do that and KEEP control of the company, albeit putting it into Administration??

I don't doubt all this leading up to Eddies unexpected and premature death played a huge toll on his health.

The key to unravelling all of this is what went on with the BluMarble loan and why it became secured on BWFC assets?

Eddie MUST have allowed that to happen KNOWING Holdsworth hadn't a pot to piss in.

Was Eddie set up and played, was everything agreed by all then Holdsworth got greedy and took out of the pot for himself, was some side deal on going on where Gordon or a third party was going to settle BluMarble when it fell due and the missing million and loan shark interest rate part of that deal - which Anderson would accept once he got wind of it???

Who knows but the BluMarble loan was the iceberg that ultimately sunk Eddies good ship BWFC Titanic and frankly on the face of it, there was no apparent reason why that was allowed to happen???

Even beyond the grave though Eddies EDT saved the club and still is doing so to this day and as quite rightly keep saying very few people particular Iles wishes to recognise that and give it the credit it deserves.

At least we have our first win this season to celebrate today though!

Promotion here we come!

So here we go again despite the warnings.
BOB - WE DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED FFS!
Do we have to regurgitate months of speculation before we arrive back at the same point again?

wanderlust wrote:So here we go again despite the warnings.
BOB - WE DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED FFS!
Do we have to regurgitate months of speculation before we arrive back at the same point again?

The thing is though is that we DO KNOW what happened we just not certain in a few instances exactly WHY.

Holdsworth took out the BluMarble loan, he had a partner in Gordon who ditched him at the alter, the loan was secured on BWFC assets, the club only received £4m but had assets secured against for £5m, Holdsworth could not service the loan and was ultimately forced into liquidation, Anderson bought Holdsworth ownership shares from the Liquidator, I could go on listing facts for ages - not least that Anderson has still not been charged with anything a year after selling and having all the books gone through with a fine financial toothcomb!!!

You went all in on Anderson being a crook and it's not turned out that way and you can't admit you got it wrong.

The problem is yours not Bob's and mine, you are the one who can't accept the reality because the reality proves you wrong.

You're the one who is unable to move on with life not us!

wanderlust wrote:So here we go again despite the warnings.
BOB - WE DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED FFS!
Do we have to regurgitate months of speculation before we arrive back at the same point again?

Someone who aspires to remain ignorant

B_O_K_E_D