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Coronavirus - will we survive?

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451Coronavirus - will we survive? - Page 16 Empty Re: Coronavirus - will we survive? on Sat Sep 19, 2020 12:55 pm

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
Article to underline what I've been saying as to why the problem is a societal one and not a purely political one.

Coronavirus: 'Rule-breaking Bolton pub crawl' saw cases rise

A returning holidaymaker who went on a pub crawl instead of self-isolating was partly responsible for Bolton's "extreme spike" in coronavirus cases, the town's council leader said.
David Greenhalgh said the man tested positive for Covid-19 two days after the night out with friends in the town.
He said Bolton's high rate had been linked back to pubs and a "cohort of people" who refused to follow guidance.
It is currently subject to tighter restrictions to halt the rise.
Mr Greenhalgh told BBC Radio 4's Today programme the spike "took us by surprise as we were arguing to have a further easing of restrictions at the time".
He said: "We had an extreme spike where we went from 12 cases per 100,000 and in less than three weeks we were up at 212 cases."

'Number of mates'

The rise led Bolton to have the highest rates of Covid-19 in the country.
"We had somebody who did not adhere to quarantine, did not stay the 14 days, literally went on a pub crawl with a number of mates," Mr Greenhalgh said.
"From that incident which took place over a weekend - (they) visited a number of premises - led to a large number of individual transmissions from that one person which you can imagine then is like holding back the tide because he then became symptomatic two days after they had all gone on this pub crawl.
"That is four or five days where all the people he was in contact with have been going about their normal day-to-day business."

Bolton is now subject to tougher measures than most of England, with hospitality venues only allowed to operate as takeaways and ordered to shut by 22:00.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-54205353

452Coronavirus - will we survive? - Page 16 Empty Re: Coronavirus - will we survive? on Sat Sep 19, 2020 1:13 pm

xmiles

xmiles
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha
You can't absolve this government of any responsibility for the mess we are in. They appointed Dido Harding as head of the test and trace programme. On Thursday she told MPs " I don't think anybody was expecting to see the really sizeable increase" in the demand for testing.

This is simply not true. Many experts knew there would be a significant increase following the return of children to school. Either she is stupidly incompetent or lying. Your choice.

453Coronavirus - will we survive? - Page 16 Empty Re: Coronavirus - will we survive? on Sat Sep 19, 2020 1:28 pm

T.R.O.Y.


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
Don’t even need to be an expert to know if you increase the amount of people mixing, the need for testing is bound to go up. Common sense surely.

454Coronavirus - will we survive? - Page 16 Empty Re: Coronavirus - will we survive? on Sat Sep 19, 2020 1:36 pm

sunlight

sunlight
Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
Im surprised at this full lockdown they might bring in. The Tories clearly arent listening to Jacob Rees-Mogg anymore. Rees-Mogg would recommend everyone take seven to fifteen tinctures of Laudanum per day, which will remove any worries about your symptoms. The good old Victorian way.
Rees-Moog was best friends with Thomas de Quincey and  he gets his supply from a Chinese man, near the river Thames.



Last edited by sunlight on Sat Sep 19, 2020 1:38 pm; edited 2 times in total

455Coronavirus - will we survive? - Page 16 Empty Re: Coronavirus - will we survive? on Sat Sep 19, 2020 1:37 pm

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Sluffy wrote:

But you told us it was the safest place in the world and fuck all Covid, just over a week ago, didn't you?



Seems you were just talking utter bollocks yet again and thought you knew better than everyone else.

A constant theme with you.


What an absolute load of tripe.

There were zero reported cases where I was in Portugal and the general respect shown to others and their safety was phenomenal in comparison to the UK. 

As it happens nearly all the new cases are in a slum area of Lisbon which surprisingly enough I had no interest in visiting.

And please cut out the petty jibes and attempted imaginary character assassinations all the time. I'm better at it than you but if I cut you down to size on here you'd only ban me again in a fit of pique so shut it.

456Coronavirus - will we survive? - Page 16 Empty Re: Coronavirus - will we survive? on Sat Sep 19, 2020 1:41 pm

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@T.R.O.Y. wrote:Short of shutting down the economy entirely and a very strict lockdown being in place you won’t stop the spread of the virus just by following the rules Sluffy - and you’d also do massive damage to the economy.

I think you probably do know that to be fair, and you agree that the governments performance has been poor so I’m not really sure what your point is anymore.

You WILL stop the spread if no one can catch the virus and social distancing, staying within bubbles, self isolating, washing hands, wearing masks in public places - all simple to understand and do - are designed to do just that.

The economy is open and working, people can go about their lives, kids can go to school and the virus doesn't spread.

It's not rocket science.

The simple fact is too many DON'T follow the rules - the bloke in Bolton who couldn't give a fuck for instance.

That's hardly the governments fault is it?

Yet that's where you focus the blame on.

Any government is only as good as the the consent of its people - and if many can't consent to follow the basic rules of preventing new infections, the result is a rise in new infections. obviously - the government didn't do that - the people did - and that is where the issue is.

It's not the government you should be blaming - yet you seem to be totally and utterly fixated on them.

What do you want them to do - turn into a China way of doing things?

It would certainly solve the problem but a hefty price to pay to do so I would say.

All the government can do mitigate the behaviour of a large part of its society - it is in effect the tail of the dog.

Until it becomes the dog itself it will always be on the backfoot as a large part of our society simply won't adhere to behaviour designed to stop the spread.

It's a bit like kicking a man when he's already down to my mind blaming the government for things they just can't control.

The problem is society's behaviour causing the issue and not how effective (or not) the government of the day is in dealing with the effects of that cause.

Maybe the Bolton bloke should be made a national example of - but he won't and the sad thing is that he's probably already seen as a legend in his community and not a selfish, self centred nobend who has probably set off a change of events that will lead to people dying - and that's not be simply trying to be dramatic - that is what will eventually happen if the massive spike in Bolton was caused by him - which does seem probably the case.

Who knows.

All we can do as I've said plenty times before is to know it is in the community, know that the economy needs to be functioning, know that there are plenty of nobheads everywhere who won't keep to the rules, and for some of us know to change our lives the best we can to prevent it from killing us.

That's the world I live in and it isn't Boris who has created this but the Bolton dickhead types throughout the world.

But then again I don't expect the world to change for me - why should it?

Boris/the government isn't the issue - society's non compliance with the basic rules to avoid most/all of this is.

That's my point.

457Coronavirus - will we survive? - Page 16 Empty Re: Coronavirus - will we survive? on Sat Sep 19, 2020 1:54 pm

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@wanderlust wrote:What an absolute load of tripe.

There were zero reported cases where I was in Portugal and the general respect shown to others and their safety was phenomenal in comparison to the UK. 

As it happens nearly all the new cases are in a slum area of Lisbon which surprisingly enough I had no interest in visiting.

And please cut out the petty jibes and attempted imaginary character assassinations all the time. I'm better at it than you but if I cut you down to size on here you'd only ban me again in a fit of pique so shut it.

Hahaha!

Of course you were right, you're right all the time in your head!

Portugal is considering a nationwide lock down when they could just simply lockdown a neighbourhood slum in Lisbon instead?

Yeah right!

And of course you are better at stuff than me and no doubt everyone else too!

:biggrin:

Still beating kids 50 years younger than you at football?

:rofl:

458Coronavirus - will we survive? - Page 16 Empty Re: Coronavirus - will we survive? on Sat Sep 19, 2020 1:57 pm

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@okocha wrote:People will do as instructed as long as they can see that ministers and their unelected advisers follow the rules too. Good leaders lead by example, with a clear set of principles and a moral code.
 
But there is presently no respect for a government which is happy to break the law. Tory rule-breaking is currently supported by a majority of Tories in parliament to general disgust here and across the world, so not sure it will be possible to clinch trade deals with countries looking on in amazement at us.

Is there any Tory minister whose word can be trusted?  

I see that the latest opinion poll has Lab and Cons exactly level on 40% and that Starmer is favoured as a prime minister over Johnson.

Okocha, you're like a broken record, do us all a favour and shut up.

Of course Starmer is favoured by many for PM, because he doesn't have the stigma of leading us through a pandemic. No government is going to come out of this smelling of roses.

459Coronavirus - will we survive? - Page 16 Empty Re: Coronavirus - will we survive? on Sat Sep 19, 2020 2:01 pm

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Natasha Whittam wrote:

Okocha, you're like a broken record, do us all a favour and shut up.

Of course Starmer is favoured by many for PM, because he doesn't have the stigma of leading us through a pandemic. No government is going to come out of this smelling of roses.
Tories are lining up Sunak - he may have the "common touch" despite being the son in law of an average Indian billionaire.

460Coronavirus - will we survive? - Page 16 Empty Re: Coronavirus - will we survive? on Sat Sep 19, 2020 2:05 pm

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Sluffy wrote:

Hahaha!

Of course you were right, you're right all the time in your head!

Portugal is considering a nationwide lock down when they could just simply lockdown a neighbourhood slum in Lisbon instead?

Yeah right!

And of course you are better at stuff than me and no doubt everyone else too!

:biggrin:

Still beating kids 50 years younger than you at football?

:rofl:
As pathetic as it is misguided. 
And no re the footie - I'm quarantining.

461Coronavirus - will we survive? - Page 16 Empty Re: Coronavirus - will we survive? on Sat Sep 19, 2020 2:12 pm

xmiles

xmiles
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha
@Sluffy wrote:

The problem is society's behaviour causing the issue and not how effective (or not) the government of the day is in dealing with the effects of that cause.



Boris/the government isn't the issue - society's non compliance with the basic rules to avoid most/all of this is.


You keep ignoring the reality that the government does has a responsibility and a more effective government would have handled many aspects of the crisis better. Simply writing essays where you just repeat yourself endlessly is not actually rebutting this point.

462Coronavirus - will we survive? - Page 16 Empty Re: Coronavirus - will we survive? on Sat Sep 19, 2020 2:37 pm

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@xmiles wrote:
@Sluffy wrote:

The problem is society's behaviour causing the issue and not how effective (or not) the government of the day is in dealing with the effects of that cause.



Boris/the government isn't the issue - society's non compliance with the basic rules to avoid most/all of this is.


You keep ignoring the reality that the government does has a responsibility and a more effective government would have handled many aspects of the crisis better. Simply writing essays where you just repeat yourself endlessly is not actually rebutting this point.

Ok then how should the government enforce the mass public noncompliance with social distancing, not undertaking self isolation, taking virus tests when having no symptoms, enforcing the wearing of masks in shops, ensuring pubs are taking correct names and addresses and enforcing social distancing within their premises, stop illegal raves, prevent mass visits to tourist spots unequipped to cater for such numbers, provide professionally trained staff at the drop of a hat and a million and one other things people are doing what they shouldn't be doing because I don't know, clearly the government doesn't know, and the police aren't able to prevent because of the totally overwhelming numbers of 'breeches of the rules' involved somewhere every minute of the day - but I guess you do?

Or is it just going to be just more anti-government rhetoric you churn out from this account once again?

463Coronavirus - will we survive? - Page 16 Empty Re: Coronavirus - will we survive? on Sat Sep 19, 2020 2:43 pm

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Sluffy wrote:

Ok then how should the government enforce the mass public noncompliance with social distancing, not undertaking self isolation, taking virus tests when having no symptoms, enforcing the wearing of masks in shops, ensuring pubs are taking correct names and addresses and enforcing social distancing within their premises, stop illegal raves, prevent mass visits to tourist spots unequipped to cater for such numbers, provide professionally trained staff at the drop of a hat and a million and one other things people are doing what they shouldn't be doing because I don't know, clearly the government doesn't know, and the police aren't able to prevent because of the totally overwhelming numbers of 'breeches of the rules' involved somewhere every minute of the day - but I guess you do?

Or is it just going to be just more anti-government rhetoric you churn out from this account once again?

You omitted "because you obviously think you know better than everyone else"



I'm jealous Very Happy




..and Nat answered the question in another thread.

464Coronavirus - will we survive? - Page 16 Empty Re: Coronavirus - will we survive? on Sat Sep 19, 2020 2:49 pm

xmiles

xmiles
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha
I am not denying that non-compliance with government guidelines has caused serious problems and that it is impossible for any democratic government to enforce these measures. And I am sure you and agree that the behaviour of the anti-vaxxers is totally reprehensible.

However this government could have done better in so many ways. Instead it appoints the people like Dido Harding and distracts with meaningless bullshit like Boris' moonshot.

Finally how many times do I have to tell you that I only have, and only ever have had, one account. You have never provided a shred of evidence to demonstrate otherwise.

465Coronavirus - will we survive? - Page 16 Empty Re: Coronavirus - will we survive? on Sat Sep 19, 2020 2:56 pm

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@wanderlust wrote:
@Sluffy wrote:

Ok then how should the government enforce the mass public noncompliance with social distancing, not undertaking self isolation, taking virus tests when having no symptoms, enforcing the wearing of masks in shops, ensuring pubs are taking correct names and addresses and enforcing social distancing within their premises, stop illegal raves, prevent mass visits to tourist spots unequipped to cater for such numbers, provide professionally trained staff at the drop of a hat and a million and one other things people are doing what they shouldn't be doing because I don't know, clearly the government doesn't know, and the police aren't able to prevent because of the totally overwhelming numbers of 'breeches of the rules' involved somewhere every minute of the day - but I guess you do?

Or is it just going to be just more anti-government rhetoric you churn out from this account once again?

You omitted "because you obviously think you know better than everyone else"


I'm jealous Very Happy

..and Nat answered the question in another thread.

Are you referring to hard-line policing - if so refer to what I've already said above - the police can't cope with enforcing what is going on and do you/we really want to move towards a China like system which can and does?

I don't think so.

The xmiles account may well be a fake one but at least they are not someone who can't accept ever being wrong and feels the need to act superior to an audience of anonymous strangers to prove and justify themself presumably to your very own self!

466Coronavirus - will we survive? - Page 16 Empty Re: Coronavirus - will we survive? on Sat Sep 19, 2020 3:00 pm

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@xmiles wrote:I am not denying that non-compliance with government guidelines has caused serious problems and that it is impossible for any democratic government to enforce these measures. And I am sure you and agree that the behaviour of the anti-vaxxers is totally reprehensible.

However this government could have done better in so many ways. Instead it appoints the people like Dido Harding and distracts with meaningless bullshit like Boris' moonshot.

Finally how many times do I have to tell you that I only have, and only ever have had, one account. You have never provided a shred of evidence to demonstrate otherwise.

Just as I expected -

@Sluffy wrote:Or is it just going to be just more anti-government rhetoric you churn out from this account once again?

As for the fake account we've done that.

You either live with it or you move on some place else.

Your choice.

467Coronavirus - will we survive? - Page 16 Empty Re: Coronavirus - will we survive? on Sat Sep 19, 2020 3:20 pm

okocha

okocha
Andy Walker
Andy Walker
@Natasha Whittam wrote:


Okocha, you're like a broken record, do us all a favour and shut up.

How rude....and after I'd just praised you for changing your tune and criticising Boris! Very Happy 
 
I'll keep quiet when Johnson, Cummings and the sycophants stop doing damage to the UK.....which should be the major concern of all of us.

Meanwhile, do try to be civil, even if you disagree.

468Coronavirus - will we survive? - Page 16 Empty Re: Coronavirus - will we survive? on Sat Sep 19, 2020 3:38 pm

okocha

okocha
Andy Walker
Andy Walker
@Sluffy wrote:

I stopped reading at that statement of complete bollocks.


Sluffy, you're entitled to disagree, but, just as I said to Nat, I'd ask you to please at least be civil.

469Coronavirus - will we survive? - Page 16 Empty Re: Coronavirus - will we survive? on Sat Sep 19, 2020 4:16 pm

xmiles

xmiles
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha
@Sluffy wrote:


So do you agree that the government could have done better?

470Coronavirus - will we survive? - Page 16 Empty Re: Coronavirus - will we survive? on Sat Sep 19, 2020 4:39 pm

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@xmiles wrote:So do you agree that the government could have done better?

No idea what you were trying to quote but I've already said this previously -

@Sluffy wrote:Nah, your missing my point entirely.

I'm not saying anywhere that I'm happy with the governments performance - quite clearly it is poor and I don't think many could argue otherwise.

My point is simply that the governments - virtually all across the world I guess - have told people the clear and unambiguous steps to take to stop the virus in its tracks.

Maybe some country's are too poor for all to comply with the rules but frankly there is no excuse in ours not to do so - yet masses of people simply ignore them every day.

Unless you want a government like China who 're-educates' everyone not toeing the line then you can hardly blame Boris et al for people not giving two fucks for anyone other than themselves.  Even good polices and strong governance don't stop people breaking the rules simply because they can't be arsed to follow them.

The problem is a social one - we KNOW how to stop the spread by simply following the rules - the problem is that too many people just don't follow them.

Just because they could do better - all governments could - doesn't mean they don't need the consent of the people to achieve things - and with the way people are ignoring the basics of social distancing etc, clearly the major problem is outside of anything the government is able to do, short of imposing a China style police state.

And no one wants that.

So I ask again what's your answer to the large list of questions I posted to you above because nobody I know has one and that includes the government and the police.

471Coronavirus - will we survive? - Page 16 Empty Re: Coronavirus - will we survive? on Sat Sep 19, 2020 7:40 pm

T.R.O.Y.


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
Yes so both society and government need to work effectively to beat this.

Or what I was telling you this morning, what are you even arguing for here?

472Coronavirus - will we survive? - Page 16 Empty Re: Coronavirus - will we survive? on Sat Sep 19, 2020 10:01 pm

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@T.R.O.Y. wrote:Yes so both society and government need to work effectively to beat this.

Or what I was telling you this morning, what are you even arguing for here?

Well if you want to go around in circles again...

In post 441 I replied to what you had said and refuted it by saying the basic rules are very, very clear and easily understood - social distance, wash hands, stay in bubble, etc, that the Government had delivered the answer and the means to do this and the fault is completely down to people. large numbers of them, simply not complying.

How then can that be the governments fault?

You clearly want it to be but apart from turning the state into a replica of China and arresting all dissenters and 're-educating' them, I don't know what else they could have done?

We are in a position now where they are once again having to play catch up for something they were not prepared for because they never factored in the publics  laissez faire/self entitlement/couldn't give a fuck attitude.

We are where we are now not because of the governments mismanagement but because of a goodly proportion of our society's gross selfishness and lack of any kind of thought or consideration for others.

How can that be Johnson/Dido/Cummings fault???

473Coronavirus - will we survive? - Page 16 Empty Re: Coronavirus - will we survive? on Sat Sep 19, 2020 10:19 pm

xmiles

xmiles
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha
For the third time as I said at post 452:

You can't absolve this government of any responsibility for the mess we are in. They appointed Dido Harding as head of the test and trace programme. On Thursday she told MPs " I don't think anybody was expecting to see the really sizeable increase" in the demand for testing.

This is simply not true. Many experts knew there would be a significant increase following the return of children to school. Either she is stupidly incompetent or lying. Your choice.

Do you actually read what other people post?


474Coronavirus - will we survive? - Page 16 Empty Re: Coronavirus - will we survive? on Sat Sep 19, 2020 10:38 pm

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@xmiles wrote:For the third time as I said at post 452:

You can't absolve this government of any responsibility for the mess we are in. They appointed Dido Harding as head of the test and trace programme. On Thursday she told MPs " I don't think anybody was expecting to see the really sizeable increase" in the demand for testing.

This is simply not true. Many experts knew there would be a significant increase following the return of children to school. Either she is stupidly incompetent or lying. Your choice.

Do you actually read what other people post?

I don't usually bother with fake accounts.

But in answer to you, if I planned for say 80% of the population adhering to the rules and 20% not, then I would plan and prepare for an appropriate test and trace capacity requirement for when the schools go back.

If however the reality is that only 20% of the population adhered to the rules and 80% didn't then not only would I have insufficient capacity for when the schools went back I would also have had a huge unexpected and unplanned demand for testing leading up to the schools going back - and that in a nutshell is what happened.

Why is that then the governments fault???

Should they plan for 100% non adherence for planning everything from now on because clearly plenty still aren't bothering about doing the basic stuff like even social distancing!!!

Clearly they should!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54220065

475Coronavirus - will we survive? - Page 16 Empty Re: Coronavirus - will we survive? on Sat Sep 19, 2020 10:49 pm

xmiles

xmiles
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha
You are the only person on this site who thinks this is a fake account. Why don't you post some evidence to back up your paranoid delusion?

I think we all know the answer to that. There isn't any evidence. You are just afraid to admit you are wrong.

476Coronavirus - will we survive? - Page 16 Empty Re: Coronavirus - will we survive? on Sat Sep 19, 2020 10:57 pm

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@xmiles wrote:You are the only person on this site who thinks this is a fake account. Why don't you post some evidence to back up your paranoid delusion?

I think we all know the answer to that. There isn't any evidence. You are just afraid to admit you are wrong.

People can think whatever they like.

You're a fake account and if you don't like me calling you out over it than go find some other place to play.

It really is that easy.

477Coronavirus - will we survive? - Page 16 Empty Re: Coronavirus - will we survive? on Sat Sep 19, 2020 11:29 pm

T.R.O.Y.


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
@Sluffy wrote:

I don't usually bother with fake accounts.

But in answer to you, if I planned for say 80% of the population adhering to the rules and 20% not, then I would plan and prepare for an appropriate test and trace capacity requirement for when the schools go back.

If however the reality is that only 20% of the population adhered to the rules and 80% didn't then not only would I have insufficient capacity for when the schools went back I would also have had a huge unexpected and unplanned demand for testing leading up to the schools going back - and that in a nutshell is what happened.

Why is that then the governments fault???

Should they plan for 100% non adherence for planning everything from now on because clearly plenty still aren't bothering about doing the basic stuff like even social distancing!!!

Clearly they should!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54220065

Truly bizarre, you really haven’t got a grasp on this one at all.

And you need to stop the trolling of xmiles, clearly he’s not a fake account it’s just desperate to carry on with that line.

478Coronavirus - will we survive? - Page 16 Empty Re: Coronavirus - will we survive? on Sun Sep 20, 2020 2:11 am

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Waste of time. The guy's a wanker who will argue with anyone over nothing just to boost his own fragile ego.
We all know it so let's just leave it at that.

479Coronavirus - will we survive? - Page 16 Empty Re: Coronavirus - will we survive? on Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:46 pm

Angry Dad

Angry Dad
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
Don't get this i googled  fake accounts and it says someone who copies another's account same picture and pretends to be that account and posts to get the real poster in trouble? so where if this is so is the real Xmiles complaining about it. How is xmiles a fake account? Does sluffy think it's Breadman or someone else.

480Coronavirus - will we survive? - Page 16 Empty Re: Coronavirus - will we survive? on Sun Sep 20, 2020 1:53 pm

Ten Bobsworth


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
Anyone had a call from 03000135000? Its the COVID test and trace number.

I had three on Friday and I suspect they may have been bogus.

The first clue was that the calls came up on my landline as international calls.

Second clue was that the person I spoke to (third call) would tell me nothing about when the alleged contact with someone who tested positive for COVID had taken place.

Third clue was that I had been nowhere in the previous seven days where a test and trace form had been required or completed

Fourth clue was when I asked if he could ring me an hour later. We were just about to sit down for dinner and he had said the call would take 20 minutes. He suggested we speak at 10.30 on Saturday morning instead. 

Fifth clue is that no call has been received since.

Sixth clue is that the NHS has my mobile number and no text message has been received.

If it was bogus the guy on the phone would have been well capable of fooling a lot of folk.



Last edited by Ten Bobsworth on Sun Sep 20, 2020 2:01 pm; edited 2 times in total

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