Will you boo if Bolton Players take the knee

Not wishing to take part is an individuals choice.

Choosing to boo an anti racism statement is completely different - you are part of the problem, simple as that.

I think we all need to have more respect for the views of others and you being so soft you can’t see a team of men kneel down is a personal issue you need to address.

T.R.O.Y. wrote:Not wishing to take part is an individuals choice.

Choosing to boo an anti racism statement is completely different - you are part of the problem, simple as that.

I think we all need to have more respect for the views of others and you being so soft you can’t see a team of men kneel down is a personal issue you need to address.

I've said my bit and you've accepted it so I'm fine with all of that.

I just post here over the logic in your statement above.

If not wishing to take part is an individual's choice - which of course it is - then why isn't wanting to take part an individual's choice also?

I mean no one is exactly holding a gun to their heads forcing them to do it are they?

Sorry, genuinely not sure what you mean there? As in why isn’t taking part by booing an individuals choice they’re free to make?

A person is equally free to make a choice to boo or not to boo - yes?

If they boo then we don't KNOW their reason for doing so - we are assuming their motive - yes?

You see booing as part of the problem because you perceive them to be booing an anti racism statement.

Because they want to boo doesn't necessarily infer they have a racist views does it?

Aren't we tarring people with 'our' opinion of things rather than understanding 'their' reasons for doing so?

Fwiw -

Boo
verb

‘Boo’ to show disapproval of a speaker or performer.

63 perceives the act of taking a knee not as an anti racist statement but as a racist statement in it itself - and that he why he chooses to boo.

Wilf and I perceive the gesture has lost all meaning - some may be booing to show they feel the same way and we should move on from it (a bit like clapping for carers - brilliant for the first ten weeks but a complete flop when they tried to bring it back a year on - circumstances and views had changed over that time although the symbolic action was exactly the same!).

Clearly the football world now has different views on taking the knee (I believe Scotland as now done a U-turn and will carry on doing it though), so there isn't universal support of it amongst themselves even - Wilfred Zaha for instance.  If Wilf was selected to play for England in the tournament would he stand or expected to take the knee, or even not selected simply to avoid the issue altogether???

I see it as becoming somewhat of a mess and quite frankly pointless any more, you clearly feel strongly about it - we can both be right at the same time but does that mean the knee should be taken or not?

I guess that's more determined on social pressure, if the England team stopped doing it what message would it be sending to the black community - do the black community in general (I don't mean the activists) wish it to continue, maybe the general feeling might be that it has had its day similarly to that of clapping for carers - I don't know?  But what is the default position, to keep taking the knee for ever - is that what society in this country wants - and if so what do we do when we play in other country's whose society believes the gesture is now meaningless - would our fans at the game boo them (in their own country) for not doing it???

Do teams take the knee at Sunday Pub league games - I don't know, although I suspect games haven't been played since Covid struck? - my point being if they don't do so themselves then they must believe it isn't such of a big deal any more and I would guess (as Wilf points out) that many professional players may well feel the same by now?

To my mind either everybody does it - it becomes part of the rules of the game, or there must come a time when everybody agrees to stop doing it - anything in between seems to be sending out mixed messages otherwise dependant on your own personal standpoint.

I’ve split this thread from the transfer rumours one.  Interesting debate but not for the transfer rumours thread

Theres no way of distinguishing boos from people who are against the gesture and boos from racists. So don’t boo the gesture, understand and respect that the players have their reasons and have chosen to do this.

Then make your point in a way that allows you to reason and explain your views. Booing achieves nothing except disrespecting the team.

The default position is to let the players choose, as they have. If you mandate doing it that really does lose all meaning.

Thanks BTID

Booing Bolton players has been my default setting for the last decade or so, it'll be hard to change.

T.R.O.Y. wrote:Thanks BTID

Yes thanks BTID.

T.R.O.Y. wrote:Theres no way of distinguishing boos from people who are against the gesture and boos from racists. So don’t boo the gesture, understand and respect that the players have their reasons and have chosen to do this.

Then make your point in a way that allows you to reason and explain your views. Booing achieves nothing except disrespecting the team.

The default position is to let the players choose, as they have. If you mandate doing it that really does lose all meaning.

Isn't taking away the right to do something sort of against the principle of the whole thing about equality and freedom for all?

And if the players can't even agree amongst themselves (See Zaha's views) then how can it possibly be the default setting?

Tbh I take your point and not wishing to be difficult I just think that your views are no more of a 'fit all' solution than anything else anyone has come up with.

I think if we had ended the knee after a set period in the same way we had for clap the carers then their would no longer be an appetite to be doing so now.

Just my opinion obviously - but I think the football world is 'stuck' with undertaking a gesture that no longer has the meaning it initially had.

The England team are all united on it, Wilf Zaha disagreeing shouldn’t prevent them from making their gesture.

I think the majority of people are still supportive, or even if they aren’t respect the players views enough not to attack them doing it - just my opinion though.

Also, Im not ‘taking away the right’ of fans to boo, it’s a complex issue, which will naturally draw emotional responses. But if the most intelligent way of articulating your response is to boo while offering no explanation or rationale for why then yes that sort of idiocy is contributing to the issue, whether you are a racist or not.

To be brutally honest if I was a player and some over sensitive soul like 63 booed me for doing it I’d do it again and again to show they won’t stop or control me. I’d bet a lot of our players feel the same.

Anyway, big day today and hopefully once England finally get underway the press stop focusing on this issue and we can talk about football.

Let them boo if they so choose. I boo the National Anthem. I'm a citizen, not a subject, so HM can piss right off.

I'm in a bad mood this morning.

Politics should not be in sports - I don't really care what the players do but just for curiosity how long is this to go on - the rest of our lives ----another year or two...... next storm will be when one player on a team stands and the others all kneel....... lets get back to football.

T.R.O.Y. wrote:The England team are all united on it, Wilf Zaha disagreeing shouldn’t prevent them from making their gesture.

I think the majority of people are still supportive, or even if they aren’t respect the players views enough not to attack them doing it - just my opinion though.

Also, Im not ‘taking away the right’ of fans to boo, it’s a complex issue, which will naturally draw emotional responses. But if the most intelligent way of articulating your response is to boo while offering no explanation or rationale for why then yes that sort of idiocy is contributing to the issue, whether you are a racist or not.

To be brutally honest if I was a player and some over sensitive soul like 63 booed me for doing it I’d do it again and again to show they won’t stop or control me. I’d bet a lot of our players feel the same.

Anyway, big day today and hopefully once England finally get underway the press stop focusing on this issue and we can talk about football.

I don't really disagree with much what you say but this bit suggests of stubbornness and obsessive behaviour which aren't good traits to have...

...and as for the whole England Team being united on this..., well it takes a strong person to stand alone against the rest, I suggest some/many of the players aren't too fussed either way about the 'knee' but don't want to rock the boat by making a stand against it like Zaha.

A bit of a hypothetical question, if Zaha was the stand out best English player - the first name on the team sheet type - and in the squad right now and told the English FA that he certainly would not take the knee if picked, what do you think England FA would do?  Would they tell Southgate not to pick him perhaps?  They (and Southgate) would certainly have to amend/change their narrative on the knee as the star player clearly believes they are wrong!!!

Would the rest of the team still take the knee or would some say 'yeah, I think Wilf is right, it is time to stop doing it' and start to stand themselves???

Do you think some of the England players who passionately believe in the knee would 'cold shoulder' Zaha - not pass to him on the pitch even???

As I say hypothetical, I'm not sure what went on at Palace this season, I assume players could choose to stand and kneel, whichever felt right to them?

Worth watching the old black and white film of Twelve Angry Men if you've never seen it before - the moral of the film being what seems an  'apparent' (now where have I heard the word recently...?) and strongly held belief of a majority of people doesn't always mean they are correct.

Discrimination in football is the issue being addressed.

 Look at what message booing that principle sends to our own black players and to European countries that indulge in this objectionable practice. Those that boo may not feel that they are racist, but they certainly give that impression to the rest of the world!

The England cricket manager rightly asked us to imagine what Archer and Moeen would have felt if Ollie Robinson had been allowed to play in the 2nd Test against NZ, despite the foul, racist tweets having been made several years ago.
We BW fans also need to look at what disgusting things Robinson said about our own Gary Speed...

Oko, if the players and management feel that booing is an indication of racism and a rejection of the need to fight it, then that should tell you how myopic they are. I wouldn’t boo because I’m a racist, or that I’m against an anti racism agenda, l’m booing because of the underlying facts about the gesture and it’s direct links with a highly disruptive and American based organisation. Just tell me why you think it’s acceptable that the players carry a BLM badge on their shirts, an organisation currently in the process of confirming themselves as a political movement.

Until the players, managers and authorities stop this stupid and incorrect assumption that fans are booing with racist intent, we won’t get anywhere and if the only reason for continuing with it is out of stubbornness, it smacks of child mentality. Surely those in the game can come up with a better solution  to fight racism, that is firstly British and secondly unifies the non racist feeling that I believe most of us fans agree on. The booing isn’t going away as long as those within the game act like numpties and refuse to either investigate or accept the fact that linking to an American, racist (anti white) organisation is not one who should be anywhere near our game.

okocha wrote:Discrimination in football is the issue being addressed.

 Look at what message booing that principle sends to our own black players and to European countries that indulge in this objectionable practice. Those that boo may not feel that they are racist, but they certainly give that impression to the rest of the world!

The England cricket manager rightly asked us to imagine what Archer and Moeen would have felt if Ollie Robinson had been allowed to play in the 2nd Test against NZ, despite the foul, racist tweets having been made several years ago.
We BW fans also need to look at what disgusting things Robinson said about our own Gary Speed...

Yet again - they give that 'impression' so it would lead a fair minded and informed observer to conclude that there was a real possibility, or a real danger, that the decision maker was biased/racist.  

They are judged as 'assumed' racists - and not as actual ones...

And if you are going to judge what 19 year olds have said on social media and condemn them for it for the rest of their lives then there won't be many people available to play cricket for England, Australia, India, West Indies or any place else!

Robson said disgusting things about our own Gary Speed did he, if so I don't remember you saying anything when Wanderlust said worse some days back - but then again you tell us all what a fantastic person and wonderful poster he is when having one of your regular snipes at me.

I wonder why...?

As for racism in football - can you name any British club who doesn't field black players as there is absolutely none as I know of?

Whitesince63 wrote:Oko, if the players and management feel that booing is an indication of racism and a rejection of the need to fight it, then that should tell you how myopic they are. I wouldn’t boo because I’m a racist, or that I’m against an anti racism agenda, l’m booing because of the underlying facts about the gesture and it’s direct links with a highly disruptive and American based organisation. Just tell me why you think it’s acceptable that the players carry a BLM badge on their shirts, an organisation currently in the process of confirming themselves as a political movement.

Until the players, managers and authorities stop this stupid and incorrect assumption that fans are booing with racist intent, we won’t get anywhere and if the only reason for continuing with it is out of stubbornness, it smacks of child mentality. Surely those in the game can come up with a better solution  to fight racism, that is firstly British and secondly unifies the non racist feeling that I believe most of us fans agree on. The booing isn’t going away as long as those within the game act like numpties and refuse to either investigate or accept the fact that linking to an American, racist (anti white) organisation is not one who should be anywhere near our game.

They already had before any of the knee business had even started...

Kick it Out.

Kick It Out was established as a campaign with the brand name 'Let's Kick Racism Out of Football' in 1993 and as an organisation in 1997. The organisation works within the football, educational and community sectors to challenge discrimination, encourage inclusive practices and work for positive change.

The campaign is supported and funded by the game's governing bodies, including founding body the Professional Footballers' Association (PFA), the Premier League and the Football Association (FA).

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I said this at the time that the football authorities should be supporting their own campaign and efforts and not jump on the bandwagon with the knee and all associated and all the politically motivated activism behind it.

Don't forget what happened next...

Watford captain Troy Deeney will trademark Black Lives Matter logo designed by him and his partner which has appeared on Premier League shirts

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They created the logo, with its clenched fist of solidarity in place of letter 'a' in the word black.

Why didn't they use their own logo instead - certainly there then would be no confusion with any other politically motivated organisations, no need to take the knee and their message on the logo couldn't be any clearer or to the point could it???

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I don't read anything that Sluffy writes these days, but I found it interesting that he was more interested in messaging me than watching the match, judging by the timing of his post. 

In answer to 63, I would simply say that he might take heed of Ashley Banjo's Brit Award acceptance speech in which he thanked the haters for illustrating exactly why BLM is still relevant and necessary.