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Bolton Nuts » BWFC » Bolton Wanderers Banter » Will you boo if Bolton Players take the knee

Will you boo if Bolton Players take the knee

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bryan458
Ten Bobsworth
Sluffy
T.R.O.Y.
luckyPeterpiper
boltonbonce
Whitesince63
Norpig
wanderlust
finlaymcdanger
okocha
15 posters

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T.R.O.Y.


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
Not wishing to take part is an individuals choice.

Choosing to boo an anti racism statement is completely different - you are part of the problem, simple as that.

I think we all need to have more respect for the views of others and you being so soft you can’t see a team of men kneel down is a personal issue you need to address.

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:Not wishing to take part is an individuals choice.

Choosing to boo an anti racism statement is completely different - you are part of the problem, simple as that.

I think we all need to have more respect for the views of others and you being so soft you can’t see a team of men kneel down is a personal issue you need to address.

I've said my bit and you've accepted it so I'm fine with all of that.

I just post here over the logic in your statement above.

If not wishing to take part is an individual's choice - which of course it is - then why isn't wanting to take part an individual's choice also?

I mean no one is exactly holding a gun to their heads forcing them to do it are they?

..dunno..

T.R.O.Y.


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
Sorry, genuinely not sure what you mean there? As in why isn’t taking part by booing an individuals choice they’re free to make?

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
A person is equally free to make a choice to boo or not to boo - yes?

If they boo then we don't KNOW their reason for doing so - we are assuming their motive - yes?

You see booing as part of the problem because you perceive them to be booing an anti racism statement.

Because they want to boo doesn't necessarily infer they have a racist views does it?

Aren't we tarring people with 'our' opinion of things rather than understanding 'their' reasons for doing so?

Fwiw -

Boo
verb

‘Boo’ to show disapproval of a speaker or performer.

63 perceives the act of taking a knee not as an anti racist statement but as a racist statement in it itself - and that he why he chooses to boo.

Wilf and I perceive the gesture has lost all meaning - some may be booing to show they feel the same way and we should move on from it (a bit like clapping for carers - brilliant for the first ten weeks but a complete flop when they tried to bring it back a year on - circumstances and views had changed over that time although the symbolic action was exactly the same!).

Clearly the football world now has different views on taking the knee (I believe Scotland as now done a U-turn and will carry on doing it though), so there isn't universal support of it amongst themselves even - Wilfred Zaha for instance.  If Wilf was selected to play for England in the tournament would he stand or expected to take the knee, or even not selected simply to avoid the issue altogether???

I see it as becoming somewhat of a mess and quite frankly pointless any more, you clearly feel strongly about it - we can both be right at the same time but does that mean the knee should be taken or not?

I guess that's more determined on social pressure, if the England team stopped doing it what message would it be sending to the black community - do the black community in general (I don't mean the activists) wish it to continue, maybe the general feeling might be that it has had its day similarly to that of clapping for carers - I don't know?  But what is the default position, to keep taking the knee for ever - is that what society in this country wants - and if so what do we do when we play in other country's whose society believes the gesture is now meaningless - would our fans at the game boo them (in their own country) for not doing it???

Do teams take the knee at Sunday Pub league games - I don't know, although I suspect games haven't been played since Covid struck? - my point being if they don't do so themselves then they must believe it isn't such of a big deal any more and I would guess (as Wilf points out) that many professional players may well feel the same by now?

To my mind either everybody does it - it becomes part of the rules of the game, or there must come a time when everybody agrees to stop doing it - anything in between seems to be sending out mixed messages otherwise dependant on your own personal standpoint.

BoltonTillIDie

BoltonTillIDie
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
I’ve split this thread from the transfer rumours one.  Interesting debate but not for the transfer rumours thread Smile

36Will you boo if Bolton Players take the knee - Page 2 Empty Temp Sat Jun 12 2021, 13:03

T.R.O.Y.


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
Theres no way of distinguishing boos from people who are against the gesture and boos from racists. So don’t boo the gesture, understand and respect that the players have their reasons and have chosen to do this.

Then make your point in a way that allows you to reason and explain your views. Booing achieves nothing except disrespecting the team.

The default position is to let the players choose, as they have. If you mandate doing it that really does lose all meaning.

T.R.O.Y.


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
Thanks BTID

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Booing Bolton players has been my default setting for the last decade or so, it'll be hard to change.

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:Thanks BTID

Yes thanks BTID.

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:Theres no way of distinguishing boos from people who are against the gesture and boos from racists. So don’t boo the gesture, understand and respect that the players have their reasons and have chosen to do this.

Then make your point in a way that allows you to reason and explain your views. Booing achieves nothing except disrespecting the team.

The default position is to let the players choose, as they have. If you mandate doing it that really does lose all meaning.

Isn't taking away the right to do something sort of against the principle of the whole thing about equality and freedom for all?

And if the players can't even agree amongst themselves (See Zaha's views) then how can it possibly be the default setting?

Tbh I take your point and not wishing to be difficult I just think that your views are no more of a 'fit all' solution than anything else anyone has come up with.

I think if we had ended the knee after a set period in the same way we had for clap the carers then their would no longer be an appetite to be doing so now.

Just my opinion obviously - but I think the football world is 'stuck' with undertaking a gesture that no longer has the meaning it initially had.

T.R.O.Y.


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
The England team are all united on it, Wilf Zaha disagreeing shouldn’t prevent them from making their gesture.

I think the majority of people are still supportive, or even if they aren’t respect the players views enough not to attack them doing it - just my opinion though.

Also, Im not ‘taking away the right’ of fans to boo, it’s a complex issue, which will naturally draw emotional responses. But if the most intelligent way of articulating your response is to boo while offering no explanation or rationale for why then yes that sort of idiocy is contributing to the issue, whether you are a racist or not.

To be brutally honest if I was a player and some over sensitive soul like 63 booed me for doing it I’d do it again and again to show they won’t stop or control me. I’d bet a lot of our players feel the same.

Anyway, big day today and hopefully once England finally get underway the press stop focusing on this issue and we can talk about football.

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Let them boo if they so choose. I boo the National Anthem. I'm a citizen, not a subject, so HM can piss right off.

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
I'm in a bad mood this morning.

terenceanne

terenceanne
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf
Politics should not be in sports - I don't really care what the players do but just for curiosity how long is this to go on - the rest of our lives ----another year or two...... next storm will be when one player on a team stands and the others all kneel....... lets get back to football.

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:The England team are all united on it, Wilf Zaha disagreeing shouldn’t prevent them from making their gesture.

I think the majority of people are still supportive, or even if they aren’t respect the players views enough not to attack them doing it - just my opinion though.

Also, Im not ‘taking away the right’ of fans to boo, it’s a complex issue, which will naturally draw emotional responses. But if the most intelligent way of articulating your response is to boo while offering no explanation or rationale for why then yes that sort of idiocy is contributing to the issue, whether you are a racist or not.

To be brutally honest if I was a player and some over sensitive soul like 63 booed me for doing it I’d do it again and again to show they won’t stop or control me. I’d bet a lot of our players feel the same.

Anyway, big day today and hopefully once England finally get underway the press stop focusing on this issue and we can talk about football.

I don't really disagree with much what you say but this bit suggests of stubbornness and obsessive behaviour which aren't good traits to have...

...and as for the whole England Team being united on this..., well it takes a strong person to stand alone against the rest, I suggest some/many of the players aren't too fussed either way about the 'knee' but don't want to rock the boat by making a stand against it like Zaha.

A bit of a hypothetical question, if Zaha was the stand out best English player - the first name on the team sheet type - and in the squad right now and told the English FA that he certainly would not take the knee if picked, what do you think England FA would do?  Would they tell Southgate not to pick him perhaps?  They (and Southgate) would certainly have to amend/change their narrative on the knee as the star player clearly believes they are wrong!!!

Would the rest of the team still take the knee or would some say 'yeah, I think Wilf is right, it is time to stop doing it' and start to stand themselves???

Do you think some of the England players who passionately believe in the knee would 'cold shoulder' Zaha - not pass to him on the pitch even???

As I say hypothetical, I'm not sure what went on at Palace this season, I assume players could choose to stand and kneel, whichever felt right to them?

Worth watching the old black and white film of Twelve Angry Men if you've never seen it before - the moral of the film being what seems an  'apparent' (now where have I heard the word recently...?) and strongly held belief of a majority of people doesn't always mean they are correct.

okocha

okocha
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf
Discrimination in football is the issue being addressed.

 Look at what message booing that principle sends to our own black players and to European countries that indulge in this objectionable practice. Those that boo may not feel that they are racist, but they certainly give that impression to the rest of the world!

The England cricket manager rightly asked us to imagine what Archer and Moeen would have felt if Ollie Robinson had been allowed to play in the 2nd Test against NZ, despite the foul, racist tweets having been made several years ago.
We BW fans also need to look at what disgusting things Robinson said about our own Gary Speed...

Whitesince63


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
Oko, if the players and management feel that booing is an indication of racism and a rejection of the need to fight it, then that should tell you how myopic they are. I wouldn’t boo because I’m a racist, or that I’m against an anti racism agenda, l’m booing because of the underlying facts about the gesture and it’s direct links with a highly disruptive and American based organisation. Just tell me why you think it’s acceptable that the players carry a BLM badge on their shirts, an organisation currently in the process of confirming themselves as a political movement.

Until the players, managers and authorities stop this stupid and incorrect assumption that fans are booing with racist intent, we won’t get anywhere and if the only reason for continuing with it is out of stubbornness, it smacks of child mentality. Surely those in the game can come up with a better solution  to fight racism, that is firstly British and secondly unifies the non racist feeling that I believe most of us fans agree on. The booing isn’t going away as long as those within the game act like numpties and refuse to either investigate or accept the fact that linking to an American, racist (anti white) organisation is not one who should be anywhere near our game.

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:Discrimination in football is the issue being addressed.

 Look at what message booing that principle sends to our own black players and to European countries that indulge in this objectionable practice. Those that boo may not feel that they are racist, but they certainly give that impression to the rest of the world!

The England cricket manager rightly asked us to imagine what Archer and Moeen would have felt if Ollie Robinson had been allowed to play in the 2nd Test against NZ, despite the foul, racist tweets having been made several years ago.
We BW fans also need to look at what disgusting things Robinson said about our own Gary Speed...

Yet again - they give that 'impression' so it would lead a fair minded and informed observer to conclude that there was a real possibility, or a real danger, that the decision maker was biased/racist.  

They are judged as 'assumed' racists - and not as actual ones...

And if you are going to judge what 19 year olds have said on social media and condemn them for it for the rest of their lives then there won't be many people available to play cricket for England, Australia, India, West Indies or any place else!

Robson said disgusting things about our own Gary Speed did he, if so I don't remember you saying anything when Wanderlust said worse some days back - but then again you tell us all what a fantastic person and wonderful poster he is when having one of your regular snipes at me.

I wonder why...?

As for racism in football - can you name any British club who doesn't field black players as there is absolutely none as I know of?

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:Oko, if the players and management feel that booing is an indication of racism and a rejection of the need to fight it, then that should tell you how myopic they are. I wouldn’t boo because I’m a racist, or that I’m against an anti racism agenda, l’m booing because of the underlying facts about the gesture and it’s direct links with a highly disruptive and American based organisation. Just tell me why you think it’s acceptable that the players carry a BLM badge on their shirts, an organisation currently in the process of confirming themselves as a political movement.

Until the players, managers and authorities stop this stupid and incorrect assumption that fans are booing with racist intent, we won’t get anywhere and if the only reason for continuing with it is out of stubbornness, it smacks of child mentality. Surely those in the game can come up with a better solution  to fight racism, that is firstly British and secondly unifies the non racist feeling that I believe most of us fans agree on. The booing isn’t going away as long as those within the game act like numpties and refuse to either investigate or accept the fact that linking to an American, racist (anti white) organisation is not one who should be anywhere near our game.

They already had before any of the knee business had even started...

Kick it Out.

Kick It Out was established as a campaign with the brand name 'Let's Kick Racism Out of Football' in 1993 and as an organisation in 1997. The organisation works within the football, educational and community sectors to challenge discrimination, encourage inclusive practices and work for positive change.

The campaign is supported and funded by the game's governing bodies, including founding body the Professional Footballers' Association (PFA), the Premier League and the Football Association (FA).

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I said this at the time that the football authorities should be supporting their own campaign and efforts and not jump on the bandwagon with the knee and all associated and all the politically motivated activism behind it.

Don't forget what happened next...

Watford captain Troy Deeney will trademark Black Lives Matter logo designed by him and his partner which has appeared on Premier League shirts

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
They created the logo, with its clenched fist of solidarity in place of letter 'a' in the word black.

Why didn't they use their own logo instead - certainly there then would be no confusion with any other politically motivated organisations, no need to take the knee and their message on the logo couldn't be any clearer or to the point could it???

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

okocha

okocha
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf
I don't read anything that Sluffy writes these days, but I found it interesting that he was more interested in messaging me than watching the match, judging by the timing of his post. 

In answer to 63, I would simply say that he might take heed of Ashley Banjo's Brit Award acceptance speech in which he thanked the haters for illustrating exactly why BLM is still relevant and necessary.

T.R.O.Y.


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:Oko, if the players and management feel that booing is an indication of racism and a rejection of the need to fight it, then that should tell you how myopic they are. I wouldn’t boo because I’m a racist, or that I’m against an anti racism agenda, l’m booing because of the underlying facts about the gesture and it’s direct links with a highly disruptive and American based organisation. Just tell me why you think it’s acceptable that the players carry a BLM badge on their shirts, an organisation currently in the process of confirming themselves as a political movement.

Until the players, managers and authorities stop this stupid and incorrect assumption that fans are booing with racist intent, we won’t get anywhere and if the only reason for continuing with it is out of stubbornness, it smacks of child mentality. Surely those in the game can come up with a better solution  to fight racism, that is firstly British and secondly unifies the non racist feeling that I believe most of us fans agree on. The booing isn’t going away as long as those within the game act like numpties and refuse to either investigate or accept the fact that linking to an American, racist (anti white) organisation is not one who should be anywhere near our game.

The gesture isn’t in support of the official Black Lives Matter. You have been told that multiple times, you choose to ignore it that’s your problem.

The gesture was chosen because it is seen to be submissive and wouldn’t generate controversy. Clearly any gesture in support of anti racism would have bought push back from a minority though.

There is no truth in what you have written, you have been had by fake news stories but it wouldn’t be hard to find the facts if you wanted to.

Discrediting anti racism as political and Marxist is an age old trope and it’s complete nonsense. They did the same to MLK but the tide is turning, just more slowly than it should because of people like you.

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:I don't read anything that Sluffy writes these days, but I found it interesting that he was more interested in messaging me than watching the match, judging by the timing of his post. 

In answer to 63, I would simply say that he might take heed of Ashley Banjo's Brit Award acceptance speech in which he thanked the haters for illustrating exactly why BLM is still relevant and necessary.

Hahaha!!!

I preferred to message you more than anything else - don't flatter yourself!!!

I'm well able to chew gum and fart at the same time - I guess you have to do one or the other!!!

And for someone who never reads my posts it doesn't seem to stop your constant sniping at me at every opportunity does it?

I would have thought someone who claims to have ten years experience of stress management techniques would be well able to control whatever thoughts you have of me by now?

I wonder why you don't cant then...?

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

Well I will say it then TROY, yes I would boo because it seems to be the only way we have of making our voice heard amongst a woke, myopic club. As Sluffy says, we all display our views against racism in our own way and don’t need to have to join some group think to practise it.
"Woke myopic club" shows that you have some prejudices at least - but that's a different bandwagon.

I get that you say you "display your views against racism in your own way" - but why does that involve booing other people who are expressing their views against racism in their own way if as you claim, you have the same objective?

Thankfully the booers are a tiny and deeply unpopular minority clique and it'll be interesting to see just how long they're tolerated.

Ten Bobsworth


El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf
At last, a senior policeman that believes in policing. 

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

It will not go down well with the Nuts Guardianista gang.

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:At last, a senior policeman that believes in policing. 

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

It will not go down well with the Nuts Guardianista gang.
I'm sure they could do both. I once hailed a cop car on a site I was working on to inform them that the local KFC had been broken in to. The cops informed me that they couldn't investigate it until they'd got the call through channels. I had to phone in to report it. Two hours later two different cops arrived to investigate.
Elementary my dear Watson.

Ten Bobsworth


El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I'm sure they could do both. I once hailed a cop car on a site I was working on to inform them that the local KFC had been broken in to. The cops informed me that they couldn't investigate it until they'd got the call through channels. I had to phone in to report it. Two hours later two different cops arrived to investigate.
Elementary my dear Watson.
As it happens, Boncey, I know this Mr Watson and Mrs Watson. They are folk who like to get things done. A few years ago I was able to help both of them get summat done that had been suffocating in bureaucracy for about three years.

Steve's first big job in the police force was ensuring the London Olympics went well. It did go quite well as I recall. Good luck to him in GMP.

Whitesince63


Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

The gesture isn’t in support of the official Black Lives Matter. You have been told that multiple times, you choose to ignore it that’s your problem.

The gesture was chosen because it is seen to be submissive and wouldn’t generate controversy. Clearly any gesture in support of anti racism would have bought push back from a minority though.

There is no truth in what you have written, you have been had by fake news stories but it wouldn’t be hard to find the facts if you wanted to.

Discrediting anti racism as political and Marxist is an age old trope and it’s complete nonsense. They did the same to MLK but the tide is turning, just more slowly than it should because of people like you.

You really are an insufferably arrogant and rude individual and clearly form part of todays woke society who just can’t accept others with different views. I haven’t been taken in by fake news unlike you who has been lulled by propaganda into the virtue signalling little world certain organisations would like you to live in. If you seriously don’t believe that the motives behind the likes of BLM aren’t both Marxist and political, then I suggest you visit their website and if the gesture isn’t supportive of the BLM organisation, then why do the players shirts display a BLM logo?

As Sluffy says, there is currently a perfectly good anti racism process already in place through kick it out, so are the authorities implying that this isn’t working and if so, why not strengthen the support and publicity around that, which has no political or ulterior intentions? Sadly, like you and the other easily influenced in society, you have been royally conned into thinking this gesture is purely an anti racist action. It’s not me who needs to get real TROY, it’s the weak, woke like you. We are clearly not going to agree on this subject, so this will be my last response to you and much like you’d want to believe that the booers will just go away, I think you will find that resistance to the knee will increase rather than fade away, until the authorities eventually see sense and remove the silly gesture and get back to fighting racism in a process we can all get behind.

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Despite the Kick it Out programme it clearly isn't working and given that racism is a criminal offence the authorities need to act by arresting and charging people making racist comments online and those committing racist acts at football grounds and elsewhere.
But they don't - perhaps because as the police themselves acknowledge as far back as the MacPherson report, they are institutionally racist.

To echo Bob we need policemen who believe in policing and that means enforcing the law.

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:Despite the Kick it Out programme it clearly isn't working and given that racism is a criminal offence the authorities need to act by arresting and charging people making racist comments online and those committing racist acts at football grounds and elsewhere.
But they don't - perhaps because as the police themselves acknowledge as far back as the MacPherson report, they are institutionally racist.

To echo Bob we need policemen who believe in policing and that means enforcing the law.

Totally agree!!!

Now what was it you labelled the Welsh the other day...?









boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
As it happens, Boncey, I know this Mr Watson and Mrs Watson. They are folk who like to get things done. A few years ago I was able to help both of them get summat done that had been suffocating in bureaucracy for about three years.

Steve's first big job in the police force was ensuring the London Olympics went well. It did go quite well as I recall. Good luck to him in GMP.
A mate of mine served under James Anderton, and he's got some cracking stories. Most of which I can't relate.

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