How is the Tory government doing?

Norpig wrote:The man has no morals or an ounce of decency but he is doing his usual trick and throwing his team under the bus?

Nothing suprises me about BoJo but the general public seem to love him and let him off with any of his indiscretions which i just don't understand.

If he really is the best we can put forward as the PM and face of this country then we are truly fucked.

The problem is more fundamental - Johnson is only the product of the political system.

Think of it this way - if Johnson stood in a General Election tomorrow against Starmer would he win?

I would say he probably would.

Johnson crushed Corbyn.

Before that he beat May to become leader.

Before that May beat Corbyn in 2017

Before that May beat Leadsom to become Tory leader after Cameron resigned after the Brexit referendum.

Where I'm going with all of this is that none of them (or those they stood against) where ever going to make the best Prime Minister where they?

The problem is that politics is about power and those who manage to get their hands on the power at the right time will go the furthest - and those once in power will do everything they can to stop there.

There's been a huge social and moral shift in the last decade or so dating back at least to Blair (and the lies to go to war) where what was once unacceptable as become accepted.

Look at how people behave on social media, look at how Wembley was stormed by the mob, look at how people ignored all the Covid rules, etc, etc, etc.

Look at Trump and how the Republican party still behaves, Christ (and I won't be popular for saying this) even look at how Wanderlust behaved on here - abusive, lying, completely in the wrong as I went to great lengths to demonstrate to you all - but no one was bothered and he's completely unrepentant for doing so.

My point being that if we as individuals don't try to do the right things in life, then why would you expect those with power - political, financial, physical or any other sort of power - to do the rights things?

Clearly they will do what's best for them.

That is the world we now live in.

We've got exactly what we've deserved.

And that's why Boris can do such shit and still survive it all.

I didn't get what i deserved, i didn't vote for the upper class crook! 

It may be naive of me but i would expect our Politicians to be judged to a higher standard wit them being public servants but as you say most of them seem to be in it for their own good.

Corbyn for all his faults didn't strike me as being in it for his own ends but he was unelectable.

Norpig wrote:I didn't get what i deserved, i didn't vote for the upper class crook! 

It may be naive of me but i would expect our Politicians to be judged to a higher standard wit them being public servants but as you say most of them seem to be in it for their own good.

Corbyn for all his faults didn't strike me as being in it for his own ends but he was unelectable.

Politics is a dirty game and you don't get to the top of it if all you have are morals.

There's no question that Corbyn didn't became leader of the Labour Party without some form of help - outside funding, big power brokers such as the unions, dirty tricks, etc - and there's no question that those who 'helped' him get there were expecting benefits from him.

Those who have got to the top of any political party haven't done it on there own and are expected in return to repay their backers (in the old days through enacting/repealing the legislation they wanted to see).

Nowadays I expect it to be more global (Russia or China financial backing - look at how Hungry's PM backs Russia and blocks all the EU's intended sanctions - or Macron still not giving arms to Ukraine) or corporate financial (look at Cameron and his involvement with Greensill for instance - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-56578838 or Jenrick with Westferry - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-59336380 )

It used to be the career civil servants and council public servants that used to be held to the highest of standards (certainly not the politicians - who in general terms the Tory MP's used to be Businessmen or Lawyers, Labour MP's, trade unionists and Liberal's tree huggers!).

Times change, standards get eroded away.

As I say, look at the people around you and on social media, how folks behaved during Covid and lockdowns, even now some still see nothing wrong in Johnson.

It is what it has become.

Standards and morals, honesty and integrity aren't valued as much as they once were - so why should anybody be surprised that politics now reflects these changes too?

Scary stuff from across the pond. Are we all going in the same direction?

boltonbonce wrote:Scary stuff from across the pond. Are we all going in the same direction?

Yes quite clearly we are as can be evidenced by those Tory MP's who consistently vote for Johnson KNOWING it to be wrong - both morally and factually.

I watched your video but although I agree his outcome he sees the process differently to me.

His view is they have to vote the party line because once they don't they lose the confidence of their voters at election time - because they see that person to have been 'played'

The better way to view it I would suggest is that if they vote against the party line - then they will simply be deselected at the next election by their party.

(Tbh I'm not quite sure that is exactly how American elections work - maybe the could still stand as a Republican BUT the Republican Party would not endorse them and throw their money behind another Republican who WILL vote the party line - no matter what they have to vote on!).

The two rules of politics - first get elected no matter what - second once elected stay elected no matter what.  Or in other words if I want to get elected as a Republican in Texas I WILL vote that Trump won the 2020 election (no need for any proof) and if I want to be re-elected I will keep on saying Trump won the election (still no need for any proof).

Just look at all the Conservatives told to vote to support Owen Paterson and against the independent Standards Commissioners recommendations.  They were led by senior Tory grandees including Leadsom, Dave Davies and IDS as well as Johnson and his muppets.

ALL of the top Tory's were protecting one of their own even though he had been badly caught with his hand firmly in the till!

If you want a career in Parliament do you stand against the crowd or swallow your morals and vote to keep your career in politics?

I stood up in my career when I knew something was very wrong and it ended my career.  I called out the fake news and lies from one on here - and it substantially killed the forum - and made myself extremely unpopular with more than a few on here even to this day.

It's easy to say someone knows right from wrong and they should do the right thing but often it doesn't end well for those that do.

Would you stand against the crowd no matter what the consequences may be for you (and in real life ultimately your family too)?

No matter what, 2+2 can never be allowed to make 5.
Unfortunately, social media means we're being bombarded with 'facts' on all sides.
I was watching a video yesterday, nodding along with quiet satisfaction, as the speaker confirmed a particular long held view of mine regarding a certain piece of government legislation. I then turned to a speaker who wasn't quite on my wavelength, and, although he was making good points that countered some of my arguments, I turned him off. I didn't want to hear.
His points didn't fit my narrative, so I stopped listening.
Unless we start listening again, and perhaps having the humility to say 'I might be wrong on this', we're on a slippery slope.
2+2 can never be allowed to make 5.

boltonbonce wrote:No matter what, 2+2 can never be allowed to make 5.
Unfortunately, social media means we're being bombarded with 'facts' on all sides.
I was watching a video yesterday, nodding along with quiet satisfaction, as the speaker confirmed a particular long held view of mine regarding a certain piece of government legislation. I then turned to a speaker who wasn't quite on my wavelength, and, although he was making good points that countered some of my arguments, I turned him off. I didn't want to hear.
His points didn't fit my narrative, so I stopped listening.
Unless we start listening again, and perhaps having the humility to say 'I might be wrong on this', we're on a slippery slope.
2+2 can never be allowed to make 5.

I guess there is two distinct things here Bonce - those that Know 2+2 doesn't = 5 and those who have been brought up to believe 2 + 2 indeed = 5.

It's pretty obvious that places like Russia and China that control everything from the centre that you can in effect brainwash people to believe whatever you want.

In a way social media is being used to achieve such the same here.

You said it yourself - you listen to some social media or video that reinforces what you already believe and reject/close your ears to/switch off, something that challenges or even refutes your stand point.

I posted a video clip a few days back about such a thing - it is called Confirmation Bias - where you basically surround yourself with those who think the same and reject out of hand anyone who doesn't.

So if I was to meet a group who believe 2+2=5 I could never convince them otherwise even though I had the proof to show it equalled 4 but they only had the belief it equalled 5.

I can easily demonstrate that too - how often did I state on here that under Company Law, Ken Anderson had not done anything wrong.

Was I believed - no.

Was I a trained and highly qualified expert in the field - yes I was.

Similarly how often did I tell the forum that there couldn't be any chance of cronyism occurring in the award of Covid PPE contracts because it was the Civil Service who awarded the contracts and not the politicians.

Was I believed - no.

Had I 30 plus years experience in oversight of such types of contract awards - yes I had.

Ok, I'm just some random bloke of the internet so why should anyone have believed me - well they shouldn't - but I gave more than enough links and explanations for people to find out the truth for themselves...

...but they didn't...

...they preferred to follow the crowd instead - even though it was wrong - simply because it was what they wanted to believe was true.

People simply don't like to/can't admit to being wrong.

In the video clip you put up earlier the Texan bloke said something like 'those who shout the loudest are the very last to accept they were wrong because it shows they had been played, duped, taken for a fool'.

Who has been the one who shouted the loudest on here about Anderson and the Tory Party sleaze and cronyism...?

Who is the one who never admits to being wrong...

...ever!!!

Anyway that video I mentioned above -

I recommend watching this short video which explains things such as Confirmation Bias and why someone needs to be continually abusive to me (I'm psychotic, mentioning I have dyslexia all the time, that I read minds, etc, etc) to detract from what he's said is wrong - this is known as the Ad Hominen Fallacy.

I was chatting to my brother earlier, and he mentioned that he's never actually heard me admit to Man U scoring a goal that wasn't lucky/poor goalkeeping/fluke/defensive error/act of god.
It's tough.

I saw the Carriegate articles on youtube yesterday afternoon and have been waiting in vain since then for the wider media to pick it up and run with it. I was gleefully expecting another excellent Bash The Bodger Fest that probably would have been good enough to finish the bastard off for good this time, but the whole story (which is surely true ) seems to have disappeared into the ether.
I feel really let down. Surely the Mirror, at least, should have gone to town on this.
How the hell has he got away with this one?

Hip Priest wrote:I saw the Carriegate articles on youtube yesterday afternoon and have been waiting in vain since then for the wider media to pick it up and run with it. I was gleefully expecting another excellent Bash The Bodger Fest that probably would have been good enough to finish the bastard off for good this time, but the whole story (which is surely true ) seems to have disappeared into the ether.
I feel really let down. Surely the Mirror, at least, should have gone to town on this.
How the hell has he got away with this one?

I hadn't seen it until Sluffy post a link. It's beyond belief. Imagine the furore if Corbyn was caught in similar situations.
Mind you, two jags was.

Two Jags was a law unto himself though Lusty. 

boltonbonce wrote:I was chatting to my brother earlier, and he mentioned that he's never actually heard me admit to Man U scoring a goal that wasn't lucky/poor goalkeeping/fluke/defensive error/act of god.
It's tough.

Depends on what's important to you I guess.

I'm not emotional, I'm a pretty cold fish in that nothing much bothers me, I accept and analyse - I can't change things much, so I don't get het up having to defend stuff that has no meaning to me.

I don't get the hatred of Manchester United, or the Tory Party, or Ken Anderson or anything else much - to me one is a company that runs a football team in the entertainment business, another is a political party designed to represent a socioeconomic segment of the population, and the other a businessman whose aim was to make money for himself by hopefully keeping our club going until it could be sold on.

My enjoyment is to understand how these things work, not what they represent or mean to others - football isn't my religion (I don't believe in God) and money isn't what drives me, my brain and my learning has provided me with all that I required.

I know it sets me apart from most but then again I don't feel the need to hate anyone, I don't feel the need to step on anyone to get what I want, and I don't need to lie or cheat to get ahead or make myself look important or to keep up some sort of fake front to others.

It's just how I am and fully understand that most people view and live life differently to me.

I'm not religious as I've said but there is a bit in the bible that says something like 'render unto Caesar what is his' which means if United score a great goal, then don't deny it wasn't, or if the Tory government has done something right (the vaccine roll out), then give them their due, or if Anderson simply isn't a criminal, then stop calling him one.

What's hard about doing that?

Doesn't it make life a whole lot easier if you don't prejudge everything, listen to all sides of the argument, and give credit where credit is due?

Why do some folk dig themselves a hole and defend it to the death - knowing they are in the wrong?

What do they gain?

Isn't life more bitter hating united, the Tory Party, Ken Anderson or whoever you do than if you just treat them as simply another football club, a party that gets somethings right as well as somethings wrong, and a businessman that did what he had to do and whatever it was we've moved on and survived when it did seem like we would at times.

Life's too short to be petty and smallminded to get hung up on things particularly over something you have no control over no matter how strongly you may feel?

That's how I view life.

OK Mods - can I draw your attention to the libellous personal comments that have resurfaced in 281 and ask that you do something about it? And if not can I at least have a PM explaining why.

The big point in all this is that the government are openly controlling the media, not that he was considering giving a job to a woman he was having an affair with.

The upcoming rail strikes are getting a lot of coverage. I question the timing and the kerfuffle that is being made of it.
Having been instructed by the government to work from home and not to socialise in large groups for a considerable time in recent years I'm wondering if the actual "disruption" is not insurmountable, whether rail strikes will have the effect they once had and whether the whole affair is little more than a political football to be exploited by all sides?

Don't strike and workers pay will diminish in value. Do strike and inflation will rise and ...erm...workers pay will diminish in value.

It seems to me like yet another distraction from the key issue which is that the government's appalling performance on the economy has made the UK far more vulnerable to the vagaries of the markets than our competitors and the government's refusal to raise windfall taxes on those who have profited from the vagaries of the markets will ensure that the rest of us will bear the cost of their incompetence and feel the impact most.

wanderlust wrote:OK Mods - can I draw your attention to the libellous personal comments that have resurfaced in 281 and ask that you do something about it? And if not can I at least have a PM explaining why.

I assume you are referring to this...

Sluffy wrote:There's been a huge social and moral shift in the last decade or so dating back at least to Blair (and the lies to go to war) where what was once unacceptable as become accepted.

Look at how people behave on social media, look at how Wembley was stormed by the mob, look at how people ignored all the Covid rules, etc, etc, etc.

Look at Trump and how the Republican party still behaves, Christ (and I won't be popular for saying this) even look at how Wanderlust behaved on here - abusive, lying, completely in the wrong as I went to great lengths to demonstrate to you all - but no one was bothered and he's completely unrepentant for doing so.

My point being that if we as individuals don't try to do the right things in life, then why would you expect those with power - political, financial, physical or any other sort of power - to do the rights things?

If so I refer you to this...

Sluffy wrote:

wanderlust wrote:FYI it is a picture entitled "Time to move on says Prime Minister" which I thought was both appertain to the conversation and amusing at the same time.

It's not a feud. He has a snarky dig - I ignore it - so he keeps going until I ask him to stop and then you wade in with "you're both at it".

I'm happy to say nothing about him or the sanctimonious garbage he spouts if you want to pull him up every time he references me negatively?

My posting history is there for all to see - where are these 'snarky' digs then?

Go on then show us your proof.

The only time I referenced you since I said I'd keep my side of the fence was AFTER your abuse at me when you told me I was psychotic.

Here is the link to my posting history to make it easy for you.

https://forum.boltonnuts.co.uk/spa/u3

Well what are you waiting for...?

and this...

Sluffy wrote:
Did you even read the background to this - it's clear you didn't or you wouldn't have posted what you have!

On my return I said I'd keep to my side of the fence - and I have.

Wanderlust jumped on something quite innocuous which I had posted and called me mentally ill and a wanker!!!

I called out to Norpig and everyone else to note that I was completely and demonstrably blameless and to note well where the problem was.

Wanderlust claimed the reason he called me mentally ill, a wanker and a few other choce insults as well was because I had been baiting him since Karly's returned.

I called him out for lying and challenged him (and anyone else) to go through my posting history in that time (I even supplied a direct link to it to make it easy for anyone to view them) and show these alleged posts he claimed I'd made.

Here it is yet again so you can see for yourselves...

https://forum.boltonnuts.co.uk/spa/u3

As I clearly haven't done anything of which he claimed - Wanderlust has unsurprising NOT replied and kept a low profile since (except to be unnecessarily and unwarrantedly abusive to Ten Bobsworth).

Norpig has since that post you've both quoted above, clearly seen for himself Wanderlust's behaviour to be completely unjustifiable as quite clearly I hadn't done anything!!!

...and this...

Sluffy wrote:And don't you think I also want this stupidity that's ruining the site to stop too???

I'm the one who was happy enough to walk away from the site when Karly left and the one who pledged to keep my side of the fence on his return.

I'm the one who did bugger all and was subjected to the uncalled, unwarranted and continued abuse from Wanderlust.

I'm the one who called out to the whole site to see for themselves what was happening and to look at things through my eyes for a change.

I'm the one who threw open my entire posting history to prove the deliberate lie that Wanderlust was trying to pedal that he was only reacting to my provocation.

I've done all I can to stop this.

Am I paranoid to find you two inadvertently stirring the pot again because you haven't bothered to see how much effort I've put in trying to end all this - well maybe I am.

...and this...

Sluffy wrote:

wanderlust wrote:Ignoring the paragraphs of self-justification above, there is a fair point buried in there somewhere i.e. it doesn't help matters when others pile in if he and I have a disagreement and it would be helpful if the situation wasn't exacerbated in this way.

There's absolutely no contrition from you at all is there?

There's no "self-justification" from me above at all - they are simply the facts as to what did happen.

You told me I had mental health problems, that I am wanker, and several other things beside and then blatantly lied as your excuse to have done so!

No attempt whatsoever to own your behaviour.

No intention to regret what you've done or apologise for it either.

I don't for one moment think this issue you have with me will ever go away but IF people are now prepared to see you as you are, to stop automatically laying all the blame on me and to call out whichever one of us who crosses over the line again, then at least I believe it can now be managed.

Hopefully we can all move on now.

So to summarise, you personally abused me by saying I have a mental illness and later by calling me a wanker and several other slurs on my character, you claimed for your justification to do this that I had been constantly 'snarky' towards you, to which I threw open my complete posting history since my return and challenged you to prove this to be true.  In fact I threw it open a number of times and repeatedly challenged you (or anyone else) to show that that was true.

You couldn't because I had not done so.

I therefore can't see how you can possibly claim me to be in anyway libellous when I've simply stated the truth, namely you did post abuse about me, you claimed you did so because I was 'snarky' to you but you repeatedly failed to back up this false claim on several occasions when challenged to do so - knowing that I hadn't done anything of the sort, and haven't offered regret or apology for your behaviour towards me - knowing that you have been deliberately abusive of me.

I still stand by my offer, if you can find any 'snarky' comment from me, from the period of my return until you calling me mentally ill then I would be more than pleased to give you a full and frank apology in public on the forum.

Anything I've stated since then refers to your behaviour where you have clearly personally abused me, failed to prove any evidence as your justification for doing so or alternatively shown no apology or regret for what you had done.

I really feel for KP. We made such an effort to get him back, and here we are again.
Looks like being a lovely day here, so, I think it's time for a holiday from Nuts, at least until the start of the season, when, hopefully, some kind of order will have been restored. Or not. I don't think I actually care any more.

Hip Priest wrote:I saw the Carriegate articles on youtube yesterday afternoon and have been waiting in vain since then for the wider media to pick it up and run with it. I was gleefully expecting another excellent Bash The Bodger Fest that probably would have been good enough to finish the bastard off for good this time, but the whole story (which is surely true ) seems to have disappeared into the ether.
I feel really let down. Surely the Mirror, at least, should have gone to town on this.
How the hell has he got away with this one?

Snap! There's something very worrying about the way the press dropped the story like a hot potato. 

On Sky News' Press Preview live last Sunday night, one of the  reviewers tried to raise the subject and got cut off promptly when she indicated that Boris had telephoned The Times from Ukraine in the middle of his photo op with Zelensky.
The article was immediately withdrawn from the Times and Mail and never surfaced again.......until references to it made the front pages of The Mirror and, surprisingly, The Telegraph this morning.

boltonbonce wrote:I really feel for KP. We made such an effort to get him back, and here we are again.
Looks like being a lovely day here, so, I think it's time for a holiday from Nuts, at least until the start of the season, when, hopefully, some kind of order will have been restored. Or not. I don't think I actually care any more.

Totally agree with you, Bonce. Wise words.

okocha wrote:
Totally agree with you, Bonce. Wise words.

Me too, it’s so tedious.