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Bolton Nuts » BWFC » Wandering Minds » How is the Tory government doing?

How is the Tory government doing?

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BoltonTillIDie
Whitesince63
wessy
Hip Priest
karlypants
Norpig
boltonbonce
Ten Bobsworth
okocha
wanderlust
Sluffy
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321How is the Tory government doing? - Page 17 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Tue Jun 21 2022, 12:29

BoltonTillIDie

BoltonTillIDie
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

boltonbonce wrote:
BoltonTillIDie wrote:Did my name come up when you googled best forum makers Wink
No, but it did come up on Bolton's Most Wanted. Razz

Twisted Evil

322How is the Tory government doing? - Page 17 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Wed Jun 22 2022, 11:11

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

I thought this was a timely example of what I've been explaining about politics - and follows on from what I said a day or so on here (minus the bit about Wanderlust just to keep the peace)

Sluffy wrote:
The problem is that politics is about power and those who manage to get their hands on the power at the right time will go the furthest - and those once in power will do everything they can to stop there.

There's been a huge social and moral shift in the last decade or so dating back at least to Blair (and the lies to go to war) where what was once unacceptable as become accepted.

Look at how people behave on social media, look at how Wembley was stormed by the mob, look at how people ignored all the Covid rules, etc, etc, etc.

Look at Trump and how the Republican party still behaves, Christ (and I won't be popular for saying this) even look at how someone behaved on here - abusive, lying, completely in the wrong as I went to great lengths to demonstrate to you all - but no one was bothered and he's completely unrepentant for doing so.

My point being that if we as individuals don't try to do the right things in life, then why would you expect those with power - political, financial, physical or any other sort of power - to do the rights things?

Clearly they will do what's best for them.


That is the world we now live in.

We've got exactly what we've deserved.

The following happened yesterday in respect of Labour MP's standing up in Parliament in support of the Rail strike union BUT not declaring that they are funded by the very same union!

Sometimes Labour MPs make it very obvious why their party hasn’t had the political nous to win a general election in 17 years. Yesterday afternoon Labour York MP Rachael Maskell stood up to ask a point of order, after Grant Shapps had spent an hour having fun pointing out all the Labour MPs who stood up to ask questions in defence of the strikes, without declaring their interests after pocketing thousands from the RMT Union. Following the question session Maskell stood up to complain to the deputy speaker that this was very unfair:

“You will know, Madam Deputy Speaker, that many members of the Labour party have a relationship with the trade unions that we are incredibly proud of, including with the RMT. The advice that I received from the Standards Commissioner ahead of that debate, and therefore ahead of today, stated under the requirements for declaration:

“Members are required, subject to the paragraphs below, to declare any financial interests which satisfy the test of relevance, including:

a) past financial interests (normally limited to those active within the last twelve months)”.

It is my recollection that the general election was two and a half years ago, so can you advise, Madam Deputy Speaker, on whether a declaration in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests should keep being raised two and a half years after it has been made?”

To paraphrase Eleanor Laing’s no-nonsense response, she told MPs to present the whole truth when representing their union paymasters, not just try and get away without a declaration because of a small technicality in the members’ rule book. A cracking misjudged intervention from Maskell all round…

https://order-order.com/2022/06/21/labour-mp-asks-speaker-if-they-can-get-away-with-not-declaring-their-rmt-donations-in-the-commons/


It's all about power - and power corrupts.

Sluffy wrote:Politics is a dirty game and you don't get to the top of it if all you have are morals.

There's no question that Corbyn didn't became leader of the Labour Party without some form of help - outside funding, big power brokers such as the unions, dirty tricks, etc - and there's no question that those who 'helped' him get there were expecting benefits from him.

Those who have got to the top of any political party haven't done it on there own and are expected in return to repay their backers (in the old days through enacting/repealing the legislation they wanted to see).


Standards and morals, honesty and integrity aren't valued as much as they once were - so why should anybody be surprised that politics now reflects these changes too?

323How is the Tory government doing? - Page 17 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Wed Jun 22 2022, 11:35

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Everyone wants a favour, but there are 'too many pigs for the teats', to quote a very great man.

324How is the Tory government doing? - Page 17 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Wed Jun 22 2022, 12:10

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

boltonbonce wrote:Everyone wants a favour, but there are 'too many pigs for the teats', to quote a very great man.

Quite true.

The bit I was trying to get to in all of this is that politics have never been about fairness and morality or whatever idealistic notion anyone may have - it is about raw power and control.

It's always has been but up to now there has been a degree of what is acceptable in society and what isn't, holding back the most crudest and blatant behaviour.

It's been clear to me for years that society has changed and such lauded notions of honesty and fair play, etc have considerably been eroded away - as I say just look at the behaviour, hatred and lies we've seen on here, how people behaved during Covid, how people believe and react to to any old bollocks they read on social media, etc, etc.

Politicians, Tory, Labour, SNP, Greens, whoever are basically all the same - they need to apply the two rules of politics - 1 - first do what it takes to get in power, and, 2 - do what it takes to stay in power - and in doing so lose their morals, independence and integrity along the way.

Would the Labour MP's really have stood up in Parliament and been on the picket lines if they weren't being funded by the RMT?

Maybe they would - but they are tainted by association - maybe their funding would stop if they didn't sort of thing?

It's one thing getting the Tories out but whoever gets in, there will always be powerful forces in the background (such as the RMT) who will always be pulling their strings.

And that's why I don't do politics - I know how dirty the game really is and is getting even more dirtier as society itself decays into self entitlement rather than the common good.

I'll get off my soapbox now.

325How is the Tory government doing? - Page 17 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Wed Jun 22 2022, 14:05

Whitesince63


Andy Walker
Andy Walker

Sluffy wrote:

Quite true.

The bit I was trying to get to in all of this is that politics have never been about fairness and morality or whatever idealistic notion anyone may have - it is about raw power and control.

It's always has been but up to now there has been a degree of what is acceptable in society and what isn't, holding back the most crudest and blatant behaviour.

It's been clear to me for years that society has changed and such lauded notions of honesty and fair play, etc have considerably been eroded away - as I say just look at the behaviour, hatred and lies we've seen on here, how people behaved during Covid, how people believe and react to to any old bollocks they read on social media, etc, etc.

Politicians, Tory, Labour, SNP, Greens, whoever are basically all the same - they need to apply the two rules of politics - 1 - first do what it takes to get in power, and, 2 - do what it takes to stay in power - and in doing so lose their morals, independence and integrity along the way.

Would the Labour MP's really have stood up in Parliament and been on the picket lines if they weren't being funded by the RMT?

Maybe they would - but they are tainted by association - maybe their funding would stop if they didn't sort of thing?

It's one thing getting the Tories out but whoever gets in, there will always be powerful forces in the background (such as the RMT) who will always be pulling their strings.

And that's why I don't do politics - I know how dirty the game really is and is getting even more dirtier as society itself decays into self entitlement rather than the common good.

I'll get off my soapbox now.
Not a soapbox Sluffy, you’re absolutely right and that’s exactly why I believe Boris will still be PM after the next election. Almost everybody broke the Covid rules in some way and would have done more so had they not been physically prevented from doing so in hospitals, care homes and at Funerals. 

Standards in everything have been dropping for decades, since the 60’s in fact. Respect for any kind of authority is now derided and more and more institutions are being taken over by individuals implementing their own personal views. We are constantly brainwashed by the media into accepting as normal and real the likes of trans rights, gay marriage and net zero. I have no problem with any of those if they are your beliefs but I do resent it being constantly pushed down my throat every time I turn on the TV. Hardly a programme is now commissioned without a gay scene, a mixed marriage, a dig at authority, or a disabled individual. 

Comedy is completely undone by the virtue signalling brigade, perfectly identified by the non funny “comedian” who won Britains got Talent. The worlds gone mad I’m afraid and is being run by morons. Boris is no worse than most but castigating him is much easier for Labour and the other parties than actually coming up with policies of their own.

326How is the Tory government doing? - Page 17 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Wed Jun 22 2022, 14:07

okocha

okocha
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf

BBC's summary of the Green Party's Caroline Lucas' comments at PMQS today:

"Caroline Lucas of the Green Party says there's a backlog of 23,000 applications under the Afghan relocation and assistance policy, with just two of 3,000 applications of Afghans who worked for Britain processed since April.
But, she says, at the same time, a quarter of staff working on the scheme have been slashed since December.
She says this is an "incredible betrayal" of Afghans who put their lives on the line to work for the UK."

327How is the Tory government doing? - Page 17 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Wed Jun 22 2022, 14:18

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

328How is the Tory government doing? - Page 17 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Wed Jun 22 2022, 15:28

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Whitesince63 wrote:Almost everybody broke the Covid rules in some way and would have done more so had they not been physically prevented from doing so in hospitals, care homes and at Funerals. 

Speak for yourself. Decent people did as they were asked.

But again you miss the point. The Prime Minster should be a man or woman of integrity, someone beyond reproach.

329How is the Tory government doing? - Page 17 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Wed Jun 22 2022, 16:04

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

Natasha Whittam wrote:
Whitesince63 wrote:Almost everybody broke the Covid rules in some way and would have done more so had they not been physically prevented from doing so in hospitals, care homes and at Funerals. 

Speak for yourself. Decent people did as they were asked.

But again you miss the point. The Prime Minster should be a man or woman of integrity, someone beyond reproach.


Agreed and he isn't.

The bigger question is are the general public bothered enough to do something about it?

The Tory MP's weren't as Johnson survived the vote against him.

When the Tory MP's believe they will lose a General Election under him will be the time he will go.

330How is the Tory government doing? - Page 17 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Wed Jun 22 2022, 16:09

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

"there will always be powerful forces in the background (such as the RMT) who will always be pulling their strings"

Funny isn't it - the Tories dragging out "fear of the unions" at a time like this especially as the RMT - despite being one of the founder members of the Labour party - has cut it's funding of Labour year on year until it's negligible - possibly even zero these days.

The RMT has funded the Green Party and other parties though. Maybe the rail strikes are "a vision of  life under a future Green Party government"?

And if that pinnacle of forthright journalism The Daily Fail is to be believed, Labour are kicking them out - which is weird - I thought the RMT was no longer affiliated to the Labour Party anyway?

Only last month the Telegraph published this article which claims that the RMT reckon Starmer "is not on the side of workers" so it's hardly a RMT/Labour love in is it and the RMT has ZERO influence on the Labour party - they don't even like each other.

So where did all this nonsense come from? Desperation?

Compare and contrast that with this Russki fund raiser at the V & A.

Two grand per person admission, Russian donors including the wife of Putin's former Finance Minister, an auction of dinner with the PM and ministers, and a private tour of the publicly owned and (according to it's M&A) without political involvement, Victoria and Albert Museum.

How come our V&A is being used to raise money for the Tories?

331How is the Tory government doing? - Page 17 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Wed Jun 22 2022, 16:19

okocha

okocha
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf

Natasha Whittam wrote:

Speak for yourself. Decent people did as they were asked.

But again you miss the point. The Prime Minster should be a man or woman of integrity, someone beyond reproach.

:clap:

332How is the Tory government doing? - Page 17 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Wed Jun 22 2022, 16:27

Whitesince63


Andy Walker
Andy Walker

Natasha Whittam wrote:

Speak for yourself. Decent people did as they were asked.

But again you miss the point. The Prime Minster should be a man or woman of integrity, someone beyond reproach.

Rubbish, MOST people, certainly those that I know, broke various rules so cut it with this stupid holier than thou attitude, which Sluffy sums up so perfectly in his posts. Even my daughter and her colleagues, doctors, nurses, porters and administrators broke the rules when consuming the food and drink delivered through the pandemic. You live in a perfect fantasy world Nat.

333How is the Tory government doing? - Page 17 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Wed Jun 22 2022, 16:30

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

wanderlust wrote:
"there will always be powerful forces in the background (such as the RMT) who will always be pulling their strings"

Funny isn't it - the Tories dragging out "fear of the unions" at a time like this especially as the RMT - despite being one of the founder members of the Labour party - has cut it's funding of Labour year on year until it's negligible - possibly even zero these days.

The RMT has funded the Green Party and other parties though. Maybe the rail strikes are "a vision of  life under a future Green Party government"?

And if that pinnacle of forthright journalism The Daily Fail is to be believed, Labour are kicking them out - which is weird - I thought the RMT was no longer affiliated to the Labour Party anyway?

Only last month the Telegraph published this article which claims that the RMT reckon Starmer "is not on the side of workers" so it's hardly a RMT/Labour love in is it and the RMT has ZERO influence on the Labour party - they don't even like each other.

So where did all this nonsense come from? Desperation?

Compare and contrast that with this Russki fund raiser at the V & A.

Two grand per person admission, Russian donors including the wife of Putin's former Finance Minister, an auction of dinner with the PM and ministers, and a private tour of the publicly owned and (according to it's M&A) without political involvement, Victoria and Albert Museum.

How come our V&A is being used to raise money for the Tories?


Hmmm!

The point being that Labour MP's stood up and spoke in favour of the RMT rail strike but DID NOT DISCLOSE they had received donations to them from the RMT.

My point being that politics is a dirty game IRRESPECTIVE of which party you support.

If it is unacceptable for the Tory party to be doing such things as you you continually bitch about then you can't then turn a blind eye to the party you favour doing something similar.

If you do - and are - then that's simply just being hypocritical.


In Parliament yesterday, Transport Secretary Grant Shapps named and shamed Labour MPs he said had received money from the RMT including former shadow Chancellor John McDonnell and York Central MP Rachael Maskell, whose constituency party received £3,000 from the militant union.

Over the last decade, the RMT has given Labour more than £1million including £239,325 to the Central Labour Party.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1628771/keir-starmer-labour-party-train-strikes-latest-trade-union-funding

334How is the Tory government doing? - Page 17 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Wed Jun 22 2022, 18:05

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Whitesince63 wrote:Rubbish, MOST people, certainly those that I know, broke various rules so cut it with this stupid holier than thou attitude. You live in a perfect fantasy world Nat.

I worked from home, exercised once a day and bought my shopping online. I became a hermit.

I didn't see Eric and his (then) 13 incher for weeks.

I'm not sure where the fantasy is.

335How is the Tory government doing? - Page 17 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Wed Jun 22 2022, 18:38

Whitesince63


Andy Walker
Andy Walker

Many of us stuck by the rules Nat but at least as many didn’t. They didn’t keep the 2 metre rule, they didn’t wear masks in shops, they didn’t adhere to the meeting rules. Look at the beaches during the hot weather and people, mainly young, congregating in parks. Most people don’t blame Boris because unlike you they accept they weren’t paragons of virtue themselves.

336How is the Tory government doing? - Page 17 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Wed Jun 22 2022, 18:58

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Whitesince63 wrote:Many of us stuck by the rules Nat but at least as many didn’t. They didn’t keep the 2 metre rule, they didn’t wear masks in shops, they didn’t adhere to the meeting rules. Look at the beaches during the hot weather and people, mainly young, congregating in parks. Most people don’t blame Boris because unlike you they accept they weren’t paragons of virtue themselves.

I take you back to my original point. The Prime Minister of this country should be a great leader, beyond reproach.

You say "most people" don't blame Boris? I absolutely refute that, I think the majority of people think he was in the wrong (including you), but many of the plebs (like me) who voted him in will vote for him again (not me).

However, I'm praying the Tories get trounced tomorrow and Boris is gone by the weekend.

337How is the Tory government doing? - Page 17 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Wed Jun 22 2022, 23:25

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Whitesince63 wrote: Most people don’t blame Boris because unlike you they accept they weren’t paragons of virtue themselves.
"Most people"?

"Most people" didn't do irreparable damage to the economy or let people die due to the inability to take tough decisions when in a position of power.

"Most people" didn't vote for Brexit but we still ended up leaving the EU - and now "most people" regret it.

Struggling to see how Johnson has anything to do with or any understanding of "most people".

338How is the Tory government doing? - Page 17 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Wed Jun 22 2022, 23:31

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Some interesting perspectives from the Evening Standard

339How is the Tory government doing? - Page 17 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Thu Jun 23 2022, 00:10

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

wanderlust wrote:
Whitesince63 wrote: Most people don’t blame Boris because unlike you they accept they weren’t paragons of virtue themselves.
"Most people"?

"Most people" didn't do irreparable damage to the economy or let people die due to the inability to take tough decisions when in a position of power.

"Most people" didn't vote for Brexit but we still ended up leaving the EU - and now "most people" regret it.

Struggling to see how Johnson has anything to do with or any understanding of "most people".

You never stop do you???

It isn't a question of 'most people' didn't vote for Brexit - it is a question of those who DID VOTE in the referendum, voted FOR Brexit.  That's how elections work.

You claimed yourself that you did too remember???

And at the following EU elections most people who voted, voted for the Brexit Party - overwhelmingly so in fact.

And to go 3 from 3, most people who voted in the let's get Brexit done General Election voted FOR Johnson who smashed the Labour 'red wall' and ended up with an 80 seat majority.

You've got to let it go mate.

I didn't vote for Brexit and I wish for my daughters sake we had never left - but we have.

You've got to face up to that - it happened and there no changing it.

340How is the Tory government doing? - Page 17 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Thu Jun 23 2022, 00:20

Hip Priest

Hip Priest
Andy Walker
Andy Walker

Whitesince63 wrote:Many of us stuck by the rules Nat but at least as many didn’t. They didn’t keep the 2 metre rule, they didn’t wear masks in shops, they didn’t adhere to the meeting rules. Look at the beaches during the hot weather and people, mainly young, congregating in parks. Most people don’t blame Boris because unlike you they accept they weren’t paragons of virtue themselves.
Come off it 63 mate. Get a grip. As you correctly say many people broke the rules on stuff like masks and the 2 metre rule. Me included. (Not intentionally). But Johnson was the PM (and I use that term in it's loosest possible sense) of a government that CREATED these rules and was responsible for their enforcement. He stood in front of the country every night flanked by the country's 2 most senior medical experts and told us that we could not visit dying relatives, attend funerals of loved ones etc or we would face draconian fines. The spread of Covid MUST be stopped at all costs. People took him seriously and for the most part did as they were told.
Then it turns out he was hosting industrial scale boozy parties in Downing Street all along.
The patently ridiculous denials, lies and excuses that followed just took the piss. He was laughing at us all while feigning/faking remorse.

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