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Bolton Nuts » BWFC » Wandering Minds » How is the Tory government doing?

How is the Tory government doing?

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finlaymcdanger
gloswhite
Cajunboy
BoltonTillIDie
Whitesince63
wessy
Hip Priest
karlypants
Norpig
boltonbonce
Ten Bobsworth
okocha
wanderlust
Sluffy
18 posters

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361How is the Tory government doing? - Page 19 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Fri Jun 24 2022, 12:04

Norpig

Norpig
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Its the lack of respect for the NHS and what we all went through during the lockdown that annoys me 63. I was there and know what tough times we all went through trying to look after people who were seriously ill and dying and trying not to catch it ourselves.

We've literally only just been allowed not to wear masks in the department but still need to do it if we are in corridors, but since you don't believe Covid was actually a thing and not that serious then you are the one sneering, not me.

You'd probably like to see the NHS privatised wouldn't you?

362How is the Tory government doing? - Page 19 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Fri Jun 24 2022, 12:05

Whitesince63


Andy Walker
Andy Walker

wanderlust wrote:
Has there ever been a government in history that has got so many appointments wrong? I've seen some serious cabinet reshuffles and sackings in my time but I can't recall anything on the scale of this government's Trumpian revolving door.
Sadly Lusty, I have to agree with you but then when you look at the alternatives, including those in other parties, it’s a very poor situation. I can’t honestly come up with a true statesman/woman type in the whole of Parliament that I’d entrust the Premiership to. How sad is that? I do though agree with your earlier point about the dignity of the two winners from last night in their acceptance speeches. It’s to be hoped some of our cabinet and shadow cabinet MPs take a hint from them? 😉

363How is the Tory government doing? - Page 19 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Fri Jun 24 2022, 12:14

Whitesince63


Andy Walker
Andy Walker

Norpig wrote:Its the lack of respect for the NHS and what we all went through during the lockdown that annoys me 63. I was there and know what tough times we all went through trying to look after people who were seriously ill and dying and trying not to catch it ourselves.

We've literally only just been allowed not to wear masks in the department but still need to do it if we are in corridors, but since you don't believe Covid was actually a thing and not that serious then you are the one sneering, not me.

You'd probably like to see the NHS privatised wouldn't you?
Not fair Norpig, my daughter works 3 x 12 hour night shifts on the busiest ward, regularly under staffed and suffered as you all did with the masks and PPE. There’s a lot wrong with the NHS, none of it the front line workers fault but continually defending it against change isn’t helping. 

I never said Covid wasn’t a thing either, my daughter caught it herself but the facts remain that the huge majority of working people didn’t suffer badly from it and many not at all. Had the government accepted that instead of continually listening to the pessimists on SAGE, now proved to have been massively over pessimistic, we wouldn’t have many of the issues we have now, both with debts, mental health, cancer, stroke and kids education. It’s not just hindsight, the FACTS were there all the time but the government just chose to ignore them.

Anyway, working through that period was awful for those involved like yourself, her aunt and my daughter, who all prevailed through it. If you were in a hospital too piggy, I can’t believe transgressions didn’t happen in yours too though?



Last edited by Whitesince63 on Fri Jun 24 2022, 13:06; edited 1 time in total

364How is the Tory government doing? - Page 19 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Fri Jun 24 2022, 12:28

Norpig

Norpig
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Transgressions as you call them were people stopping work to have a drink or some food, the majority of staff have been triple vaccinated and had a flu jab as well so lesson the risks. You didn't answer my question on privatisation.

365How is the Tory government doing? - Page 19 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Fri Jun 24 2022, 12:37

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Not sure I approve of the fruit and veg stall in our local hospital corridor. Hospitals are like shopping malls these days. No bookies though I notice. Miserable sods.
How is the Tory government doing? - Page 19 23456690_194640431108904_2934317383726522177_o.jpg?_nc_cat=105&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=973b4a&_nc_ohc=kBj2dfAZetUAX9ILOzt&_nc_ht=scontent-man2-1

366How is the Tory government doing? - Page 19 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Fri Jun 24 2022, 13:14

Whitesince63


Andy Walker
Andy Walker

Norpig wrote:Transgressions as you call them were people stopping work to have a drink or some food, the majority of staff have been triple vaccinated and had a flu jab as well so lesson the risks. You didn't answer my question on privatisation.
Of course they supposed to eat and drink but they often did it in groups. This is a fact, whether you want to accept it or not. Most people are triple vaccinated and many like me had the flu jab so your points irrelevant. As far as privatisation is concerned, I’d like an open and honest discussion on the NHS generally. It certainly doesn’t work currently and is terrible value for money. It also isn’t free, it’s paid for by working people through tax. If you actually work out how much you pay for the NHS, why not pay to an insurance scheme instead? At least we wouldn’t have all the hangers on we have now like sustainability managers and gender managers on over £100k a year whilst we struggle for doctors and nurses if it was operated privately and would still be free at the point of delivery.

367How is the Tory government doing? - Page 19 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Fri Jun 24 2022, 13:29

Norpig

Norpig
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Whitesince63 wrote:
Of course they supposed to eat and drink but they often did it in groups. This is a fact, whether you want to accept it or not. Most people are triple vaccinated and many like me had the flu jab so your points irrelevant. As far as privatisation is concerned, I’d like an open and honest discussion on the NHS generally. It certainly doesn’t work currently and is terrible value for money. It also isn’t free, it’s paid for by working people through tax. If you actually work out how much you pay for the NHS, why not pay to an insurance scheme instead? At least we wouldn’t have all the hangers on we have now like sustainability managers and gender managers on over £100k a year whilst we struggle for doctors and nurses if it was operated privately and would still be free at the point of delivery.
At last the truth! Norman would be proud of you  Rolling Eyes

368How is the Tory government doing? - Page 19 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Fri Jun 24 2022, 14:13

Whitesince63


Andy Walker
Andy Walker

Norpig wrote:
At last the truth! Norman would be proud of you  Rolling Eyes
Yep, someone who wants a complete review of the value for money we get rather than your obviously socialist and myopic conviction that just pouring more and more money into the NHS pit as it is makes any sense. Deary me Norpig, I credited you with more sense than that.

369How is the Tory government doing? - Page 19 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Fri Jun 24 2022, 14:25

Norpig

Norpig
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Whitesince63 wrote:
Yep, someone who wants a complete review of the value for money we get rather than your obviously socialist and myopic conviction that just pouring more and more money into the NHS pit as it is makes any sense. Deary me Norpig, I credited you with more sense than that.
Parts of the NHS are already privatised and it's a disaster, think you'll find you're in a minority of one with this one.

370How is the Tory government doing? - Page 19 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Fri Jun 24 2022, 14:48

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Whitesince63 wrote:
Yep, someone who wants a complete review of the value for money we get rather than your obviously socialist and myopic conviction that just pouring more and more money into the NHS pit as it is makes any sense. Deary me Norpig, I credited you with more sense than that.
Rishi Sunak tried to get the Americans to get involved and...

According to redacted Treasury minutes, the Chancellor’s attempt to secure investment from healthcare companies was rebuffed at the California summit.


According to partially redacted Treasury minutes of the meeting, seen by i, one of the meeting’s objectives was “to highlight opportunities for life science sector organisations in the UK, outlining the UK’s USPs”.
However, Mr Sunak was told by firms that they had little interest in working in the UK at the time.
The attendees told the Chancellor that they were focused on growing in the US, and currently would not consider expansion to the UK.
Attendees reported that they saw UK healthcare as lacking innovation, although they thought it had improved in recent years.
The minutes, labelled “Official Sensitive’” read: “US healthcare firms want to focus on their domestic market before contemplating expansion, because i) it’s so vast: population and spend per capita much higher than e.g. in the UK; ii) it’s complicated and idiosyncratic; it’s not a portable approach.
“UK healthcare has historically not been especially innovative, but some participants reported positive engagements where they’ve worked with the NHS recently.”
Mr Sunak held the breakfast meeting with the healthcare companies on 16 December.

371How is the Tory government doing? - Page 19 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Fri Jun 24 2022, 14:55

karlypants

karlypants
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Perhaps if we stopped doing vanity operations like free tit jobs and the transgender therapy etc that Natasha got we might have a few bob to spend medical care that save people's lives.

372How is the Tory government doing? - Page 19 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Fri Jun 24 2022, 15:32

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

karlypants wrote:Perhaps if we stopped doing vanity operations like free tit jobs and the transgender therapy etc that Natasha got we might have a few bob to spend medical care that save people's lives.
I sort of agree but they're not "free" as we all pay NI contributions to pay for the NHS and moreover the NHS only does cosmetic surgery including boob jobs in very rare circumstances - so it's not going to save much money in the scheme of things.

All the Tories talk about is going for private health insurance schemes - but we already have a health insurance scheme i.e. NI contributions - it's just badly administrated by the government. And it could be far better and more efficient than promoting the private route because it cuts out the middleman.

Why should British people hand over our money just to create profits for foreign health and insurance companies?

Improve how we fund the NHS, cut out the private sector vultures and spend what they take as profits on staff and patients instead and we'll be the best in the world again.

373How is the Tory government doing? - Page 19 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Fri Jun 24 2022, 22:00

Whitesince63


Andy Walker
Andy Walker

wanderlust wrote:
I sort of agree but they're not "free" as we all pay NI contributions to pay for the NHS and moreover the NHS only does cosmetic surgery including boob jobs in very rare circumstances - so it's not going to save much money in the scheme of things.

All the Tories talk about is going for private health insurance schemes - but we already have a health insurance scheme i.e. NI contributions - it's just badly administrated by the government. And it could be far better and more efficient than promoting the private route because it cuts out the middleman.

Why should British people hand over our money just to create profits for foreign health and insurance companies?

Improve how we fund the NHS, cut out the private sector vultures and spend what they take as profits on staff and patients instead and we'll be the best in the world again.
The problem is Lusty, your NI contributions don’t go anywhere near covering NHS costs. I agree entirely with both you and Norpig that just privatising wouldn’t improve things. We need, yet have never had, a complete review and open debate of what we’re getting for the huge amount of money going into the service. I know personally a couple of consultants who work with the NHS and the money they’re paid is just ridiculous. In addition, 25% of all NHS spend is on servicing complaints, that’s billions. The whole system is rotten and needs a root and branch investigation. The problem is, who will have the balls to commit to doing that with the criticism they’d be sure to get over the process?

374How is the Tory government doing? - Page 19 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Sat Jun 25 2022, 12:16

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Whitesince63 wrote:
The problem is Lusty, your NI contributions don’t go anywhere near covering NHS costs. I agree entirely with both you and Norpig that just privatising wouldn’t improve things. We need, yet have never had, a complete review and open debate of what we’re getting for the huge amount of money going into the service. I know personally a couple of consultants who work with the NHS and the money they’re paid is just ridiculous. In addition, 25% of all NHS spend is on servicing complaints, that’s billions. The whole system is rotten and needs a root and branch investigation. The problem is, who will have the balls to commit to doing that with the criticism they’d be sure to get over the process?
In many countries - France for example - taxes are higher but the money goes straight into healthcare, infrastructure, schools etc which is why they are such high quality. The problem here is that the electorate is used to paying low tax and successive governments have shied away from raising tax to the level it needs to be.

Frankly speaking, if people aren't prepared to pay more taxes they have no right to complain about the quality of services they buy.

375How is the Tory government doing? - Page 19 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Sat Jun 25 2022, 19:41

Whitesince63


Andy Walker
Andy Walker

wanderlust wrote:
In many countries - France for example - taxes are higher but the money goes straight into healthcare, infrastructure, schools etc which is why they are such high quality. The problem here is that the electorate is used to paying low tax and successive governments have shied away from raising tax to the level it needs to be.

Frankly speaking, if people aren't prepared to pay more taxes they have no right to complain about the quality of services they buy.
In terms of direct taxation France and Denmark come out top Lusty but when you add in the indirect tax too, we’re as high as anyone so it isn’t because they pay more tax that their health service is better. Also when you look at the amount of money ploughed into the NHS we’re way ahead. The fact is our NHS is a mess and is in real need of a complete review. Just continually throwing more and more money at it isn’t working so we need to try something else, even if it’s radical.

376How is the Tory government doing? - Page 19 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Sat Jun 25 2022, 23:42

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Whitesince63 wrote:
In terms of direct taxation France and Denmark come out top Lusty but when you add in the indirect tax too, we’re as high as anyone so it isn’t because they pay more tax that their health service is better. Also when you look at the amount of money ploughed into the NHS we’re way ahead. The fact is our NHS is a mess and is in real need of a complete review. Just continually throwing more and more money at it isn’t working so we need to try something else, even if it’s radical.
The key thing is the way the French health system is funded White....it is in effect nationalised health insurance.

"The French health care system is one of universal health care largely financed by government national health insurance. In its 2000 assessment of world health care systems, the World Health Organization found that France provided the "best overall health care" in the world.[1] In 2017, France spent 11.3% of GDP on health care, or US$5,370 per capita,[2] a figure higher than the average spent by rich countries (OECD average is 8.8%, 2017), though similar to Germany (10.6%) and Canada (10%), but much less than in the US (17.1%, 2018). Approximately 77% of health expenditures are covered by government funded agencies. Most general physicians are in private practice but draw their income from the public insurance funds. These funds, unlike their German counterparts, have never gained self-management responsibility. Instead, the government has taken responsibility for the financial and operational management of health insurance (by setting premium levels related to income and determining the prices of goods and services refunded).[1] The French government generally refunds patients 70% of most health care costs, and 100% in case of costly or long-term ailments."

377How is the Tory government doing? - Page 19 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Sun Jun 26 2022, 16:23

Cajunboy

Cajunboy
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf

karlypants wrote:Perhaps if we stopped doing vanity operations like free tit jobs and the transgender therapy etc that Natasha got we might have a few bob to spend medical care that save people's lives.
I agree , there is far too much tit wangling and willy lopping going on.

378How is the Tory government doing? - Page 19 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Sun Jun 26 2022, 19:18

Whitesince63


Andy Walker
Andy Walker

wanderlust wrote:
The key thing is the way the French health system is funded White....it is in effect nationalised health insurance.

"The French health care system is one of universal health care largely financed by government national health insurance. In its 2000 assessment of world health care systems, the World Health Organization found that France provided the "best overall health care" in the world.[1] In 2017, France spent 11.3% of GDP on health care, or US$5,370 per capita,[2] a figure higher than the average spent by rich countries (OECD average is 8.8%, 2017), though similar to Germany (10.6%) and Canada (10%), but much less than in the US (17.1%, 2018). Approximately 77% of health expenditures are covered by government funded agencies. Most general physicians are in private practice but draw their income from the public insurance funds. These funds, unlike their German counterparts, have never gained self-management responsibility. Instead, the government has taken responsibility for the financial and operational management of health insurance (by setting premium levels related to income and determining the prices of goods and services refunded).[1] The French government generally refunds patients 70% of most health care costs, and 100% in case of costly or long-term ailments."
Good post Lusty and that exactly proves my point. We need to look at what’s working elsewhere and see if we can copy it instead of treating the NHS as some sacred cow that we mustn’t investigate. I don’t have any issue with the government controlling the insurance levels as long as it works.

379How is the Tory government doing? - Page 19 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Mon Jun 27 2022, 01:43

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Whitesince63 wrote:
Good post Lusty and that exactly proves my point. We need to look at what’s working elsewhere and see if we can copy it instead of treating the NHS as some sacred cow that we mustn’t investigate. I don’t have any issue with the government controlling the insurance levels as long as it works.
I think it's equally important that the French government also regulate prices of services - so "consultants" and middle men don't overcharge which means that the health service gets VFM, customers i.e.  the public doesn't get ripped off and the money goes further.

Sack off the Trusts, renationalise the NHS, use the collective buying power more effectively, control costs and manage performance in house. And then we can tell the foreign health company Tory donors vultures and their mates to f*** off. Smile

380How is the Tory government doing? - Page 19 Empty Re: How is the Tory government doing? Mon Jun 27 2022, 10:10

Whitesince63


Andy Walker
Andy Walker

Again we agree Lusty. The Trusts are one of the biggest problems and drains on the system. No question that the NHS should be brought under the control of Central Government and a swathe of the pointless administrators and managers binned. Control of the wards should once again be given to the Matrons rather than managers who have absolutely no idea of real life on the front line. It’s the nurse shortages themselves that are causing the biggest exit of nurses, not money. Constantly having more and more pressure on them is causing good people to leave. My daughter is one of a supposed six nurses on one of the busiest wards in Rotherham General, yet last week there were only two of them on a 12 hour night shift. In fact there has not for a long time been a full team, regularly only 3 or 4. No wonder they’ve had enough?

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