Barcelona Terror Attack

13 dead many injured - simply because some nutcase believed more about some thousand year old religious doctrine instead of the life's of fellow human beings including at least two little kids.

RIP Barcelona's dead.

And another attack also in Spain. Four terrorists killed. Spain now getting the arse end of terrorism beyond the Catalans. I'm rather keen to hear what Frau Merkel is going to say now.
   We, here in the UK, are going to have to be ultra vigilant and the government make plans for anti-terrorism measures. Might mean lowering the roads about a foot, or raising the pavements but those sort of measures are going to be costly.

Very sad, we were there this time last year and stayed in a hotel right next to where the van went on the rampage - RIP

Bastards!

I'm always amazed at these things, and try to think what these lunatics are actually thinking at the time they commit their atrocities. 
Cowardly attacks on innocent people, and they call themselves 'soldiers'. Anything but.

I'd begun to think that to be able to commit such evil, you'd have to be insane or completely stoned. 

However, some recent BBC news footage showed very young school pupils being indoctrinated, having their minds twisted in order to become the next generation of IS soldiers. I suppose this is an example of being drug-addled, but by a different name and method.

okocha wrote:I'd begun to think that to be able to commit such evil, you'd have to be insane or completely stoned. 

However, some recent BBC news footage showed very young school pupils being indoctrinated, having their minds twisted in order to become the next generation of IS soldiers. I suppose this is an example of being drug-addled, but by a different name and method.

It is all about knowledge and education.

If you are brought up in a home and culture that lives to a certain way of life - then you simply don't know any different and go on to raise your own children in the same way.

When you do meet people from a different culture who do things differently, you automatically think (believe) they are doing it wrong.

Some people (most I guess) can learnt to tolerate or adapt to new ways they come into contact with but a number just can't or won't.

Religion really is an early form of controlling people and getting them to live the same way as each other. Whilst the west shook off this religious control century's ago the Islamic country's still are dominated by religion still controlling them (the leadership, their laws, their way of thinking, etc).

Until this control comes to an end there will always be people who sees things as 'us and them' from both sides of the cultural divide.

Good post Sluffy.

Sluffy wrote:

okocha wrote:I'd begun to think that to be able to commit such evil, you'd have to be insane or completely stoned. 

However, some recent BBC news footage showed very young school pupils being indoctrinated, having their minds twisted in order to become the next generation of IS soldiers. I suppose this is an example of being drug-addled, but by a different name and method.

It is all about knowledge and education.

If you are brought up in a home and culture that lives to a certain way of life - then you simply don't know any different and go on to raise your own children in the same way.

When you do meet people from a different culture who do things differently, you automatically think (believe) they are doing it wrong.

Me and most of the people I know don't think that way at all.
We don't "automatically think/believe that people from other cultures are doing it wrong". 
I've travelled extensively and have always thought that people from other cultures do things differently (not wrong) and usually their cultural heritage reflects the environment their culture developed in e.g. people raised in the desert would naturally wear cool clothing that covered their heads and bodies from the sun or that people from the Arctic would wear animal skins and eat fish. In nomadic tribes, polygamy made sense for survival once upon a time. Ancient cultural things in modern religious books.

Religion is a reflection of ancient society and cultural values, expressing a human need to believe there is something more than our experience of existence in a human way, and in books written and subsequently interpreted by humans - so our own construct. and therefore fallible.

What needs to change is the human need in a modern technological communications era created by our generation, to have absolute certainty.
We are becoming drawn to the extremes as though everything has to be absolutely right or absolutely wrong and that is the problem, because as long as we lose sight of the idea that something may be right or may be wrong we continue to lose sight of the ability to not mind not being right - the basis of mutual respect and tolerance of difference. Losing that creates extremism.

RIP to all those who have died.

I feel that this will eventually become a normal part of everyday life in a way where it will be normal news.

Well it feels like it's getting that way.

Not a clue how this situation will get fixed nor do the governments etc I bet.

And now the news is reporting a terrorist attack in Russia.

It won't be long before retaliated attacks start to happen.

wanderlust wrote:

Sluffy wrote:

okocha wrote:I'd begun to think that to be able to commit such evil, you'd have to be insane or completely stoned. 

However, some recent BBC news footage showed very young school pupils being indoctrinated, having their minds twisted in order to become the next generation of IS soldiers. I suppose this is an example of being drug-addled, but by a different name and method.

It is all about knowledge and education.

If you are brought up in a home and culture that lives to a certain way of life - then you simply don't know any different and go on to raise your own children in the same way.

When you do meet people from a different culture who do things differently, you automatically think (believe) they are doing it wrong.

Me and most of the people I know don't think that way at all.
We don't "automatically think/believe that people from other cultures are doing it wrong". 
I've travelled extensively and have always thought that people from other cultures do things differently (not wrong) and usually their cultural heritage reflects the environment their culture developed in e.g. people raised in the desert would naturally wear cool clothing that covered their heads and bodies from the sun or that people from the Arctic would wear animal skins and eat fish. In nomadic tribes, polygamy made sense for survival once upon a time. Ancient cultural things in modern religious books.

Religion is a reflection of ancient society and cultural values, expressing a human need to believe there is something more than our experience of existence in a human way, and in books written and subsequently interpreted by humans - so our own construct. and therefore fallible.

What needs to change is the human need in a modern technological communications era created by our generation, to have absolute certainty.
We are becoming drawn to the extremes as though everything has to be absolutely right or absolutely wrong and that is the problem, because as long as we lose sight of the idea that something may be right or may be wrong we continue to lose sight of the ability to not mind not being right - the basis of mutual respect and tolerance of difference. Losing that creates extremism.

It would take me too long to go into detail to repudiate your above post and I'm not prepared to put in the effort or the time.

I will however try to give you a gist of the flaw in your thinking.

Basically you are judging and reasoning from your own 'educated' and 'liberal' mind set (one we are fortunate enough to have in a free, interracial, western democracy.

If however you applied a mind set from someone who has been brought up to believe implicitly in a radicalised and extremist religious doctrine, it is far harder (not impossible) to accept that other people and cultures are doing things 'differently'. They are brought up to believe strongly that they are quite simply 'wrong'.

Until those hard core mind sets and religious extremist doctrines can be overcome, then unfortunately we will always have a mismatch in the worlds tolerance of each other.

Sluffy wrote:

wanderlust wrote:

Sluffy wrote:

okocha wrote:I'd begun to think that to be able to commit such evil, you'd have to be insane or completely stoned. 

However, some recent BBC news footage showed very young school pupils being indoctrinated, having their minds twisted in order to become the next generation of IS soldiers. I suppose this is an example of being drug-addled, but by a different name and method.

It is all about knowledge and education.

If you are brought up in a home and culture that lives to a certain way of life - then you simply don't know any different and go on to raise your own children in the same way.

When you do meet people from a different culture who do things differently, you automatically think (believe) they are doing it wrong.

Me and most of the people I know don't think that way at all.
We don't "automatically think/believe that people from other cultures are doing it wrong". 
I've travelled extensively and have always thought that people from other cultures do things differently (not wrong) and usually their cultural heritage reflects the environment their culture developed in e.g. people raised in the desert would naturally wear cool clothing that covered their heads and bodies from the sun or that people from the Arctic would wear animal skins and eat fish. In nomadic tribes, polygamy made sense for survival once upon a time. Ancient cultural things in modern religious books.

Religion is a reflection of ancient society and cultural values, expressing a human need to believe there is something more than our experience of existence in a human way, and in books written and subsequently interpreted by humans - so our own construct. and therefore fallible.

What needs to change is the human need in a modern technological communications era created by our generation, to have absolute certainty.
We are becoming drawn to the extremes as though everything has to be absolutely right or absolutely wrong and that is the problem, because as long as we lose sight of the idea that something may be right or may be wrong we continue to lose sight of the ability to not mind not being right - the basis of mutual respect and tolerance of difference. Losing that creates extremism.

It would take me too long to go into detail to repudiate your above post and I'm not prepared to put in the effort or the time.

I will however try to give you a gist of the flaw in your thinking.

Basically you are judging and reasoning from your own 'educated' and 'liberal' mind set (one we are fortunate enough to have in a free, interracial, western democracy.

If however you applied a mind set from someone who has been brought up to believe implicitly in a radicalised and extremist religious doctrine, it is far harder (not impossible) to accept that other people and cultures are doing things 'differently'.  They are brought up to believe strongly that they are quite simply 'wrong'.

Until those hard core mind sets and religious extremist doctrines can be overcome, then unfortunately we will always have a mismatch in the worlds tolerance of each other.

Cargo cults existed in the stone age settlements of the Melanesian Islands until the 1970s and when they first came into contact with French rubber planters who had aeroplanes, metal tools and mirrors etc they simply put it down to the French having a better way of communicating with the ancestors from whom all good things came. 
Rather than think of the foreign invaders as being "wrong" they thought of them as enlightened, almost God-like as the John Frum subcult demonstrated.
Your oversimplification of cultural interpretation fits your theory but doesn't bear scrutiny especially when applied in a sweeping generalisation as you have done.

wanderlust wrote:

Sluffy wrote:

wanderlust wrote:

Sluffy wrote:

okocha wrote:I'd begun to think that to be able to commit such evil, you'd have to be insane or completely stoned. 

However, some recent BBC news footage showed very young school pupils being indoctrinated, having their minds twisted in order to become the next generation of IS soldiers. I suppose this is an example of being drug-addled, but by a different name and method.

It is all about knowledge and education.

If you are brought up in a home and culture that lives to a certain way of life - then you simply don't know any different and go on to raise your own children in the same way.

When you do meet people from a different culture who do things differently, you automatically think (believe) they are doing it wrong.

Me and most of the people I know don't think that way at all.
We don't "automatically think/believe that people from other cultures are doing it wrong". 
I've travelled extensively and have always thought that people from other cultures do things differently (not wrong) and usually their cultural heritage reflects the environment their culture developed in e.g. people raised in the desert would naturally wear cool clothing that covered their heads and bodies from the sun or that people from the Arctic would wear animal skins and eat fish. In nomadic tribes, polygamy made sense for survival once upon a time. Ancient cultural things in modern religious books.

Religion is a reflection of ancient society and cultural values, expressing a human need to believe there is something more than our experience of existence in a human way, and in books written and subsequently interpreted by humans - so our own construct. and therefore fallible.

What needs to change is the human need in a modern technological communications era created by our generation, to have absolute certainty.
We are becoming drawn to the extremes as though everything has to be absolutely right or absolutely wrong and that is the problem, because as long as we lose sight of the idea that something may be right or may be wrong we continue to lose sight of the ability to not mind not being right - the basis of mutual respect and tolerance of difference. Losing that creates extremism.

It would take me too long to go into detail to repudiate your above post and I'm not prepared to put in the effort or the time.

I will however try to give you a gist of the flaw in your thinking.

Basically you are judging and reasoning from your own 'educated' and 'liberal' mind set (one we are fortunate enough to have in a free, interracial, western democracy.

If however you applied a mind set from someone who has been brought up to believe implicitly in a radicalised and extremist religious doctrine, it is far harder (not impossible) to accept that other people and cultures are doing things 'differently'.  They are brought up to believe strongly that they are quite simply 'wrong'.

Until those hard core mind sets and religious extremist doctrines can be overcome, then unfortunately we will always have a mismatch in the worlds tolerance of each other.

Cargo cults existed in the stone age settlements of the Melanesian Islands until the 1970s and when they first came into contact with French rubber planters who had aeroplanes, metal tools and mirrors etc they simply put it down to the French having a better way of communicating with the ancestors from whom all good things came. 
Rather than think of the foreign invaders as being "wrong" they thought of them as enlightened, almost God-like as the John Frum subcult demonstrated.
Your oversimplification of cultural interpretation fits your theory but doesn't bear scrutiny especially when applied in a sweeping generalisation as you have done.

Yes because John Frum is exactly like extreme Islamism.



You just carry on believing that and I'll save my breath in attempting to enlighten you any further.

Am I not right in saying that one of the basic tenets of the Muslim religion is that if you are not a member of theirs, then you are an infidel, and you are (in the) wrong. Seems a pretty definite position to be in to me.

Sluffy wrote:

wanderlust wrote:

Sluffy wrote:

wanderlust wrote:

Sluffy wrote:

okocha wrote:I'd begun to think that to be able to commit such evil, you'd have to be insane or completely stoned. 

However, some recent BBC news footage showed very young school pupils being indoctrinated, having their minds twisted in order to become the next generation of IS soldiers. I suppose this is an example of being drug-addled, but by a different name and method.

It is all about knowledge and education.

If you are brought up in a home and culture that lives to a certain way of life - then you simply don't know any different and go on to raise your own children in the same way.

When you do meet people from a different culture who do things differently, you automatically think (believe) they are doing it wrong.

Me and most of the people I know don't think that way at all.
We don't "automatically think/believe that people from other cultures are doing it wrong". 
I've travelled extensively and have always thought that people from other cultures do things differently (not wrong) and usually their cultural heritage reflects the environment their culture developed in e.g. people raised in the desert would naturally wear cool clothing that covered their heads and bodies from the sun or that people from the Arctic would wear animal skins and eat fish. In nomadic tribes, polygamy made sense for survival once upon a time. Ancient cultural things in modern religious books.

Religion is a reflection of ancient society and cultural values, expressing a human need to believe there is something more than our experience of existence in a human way, and in books written and subsequently interpreted by humans - so our own construct. and therefore fallible.

What needs to change is the human need in a modern technological communications era created by our generation, to have absolute certainty.
We are becoming drawn to the extremes as though everything has to be absolutely right or absolutely wrong and that is the problem, because as long as we lose sight of the idea that something may be right or may be wrong we continue to lose sight of the ability to not mind not being right - the basis of mutual respect and tolerance of difference. Losing that creates extremism.

It would take me too long to go into detail to repudiate your above post and I'm not prepared to put in the effort or the time.

I will however try to give you a gist of the flaw in your thinking.

Basically you are judging and reasoning from your own 'educated' and 'liberal' mind set (one we are fortunate enough to have in a free, interracial, western democracy.

If however you applied a mind set from someone who has been brought up to believe implicitly in a radicalised and extremist religious doctrine, it is far harder (not impossible) to accept that other people and cultures are doing things 'differently'.  They are brought up to believe strongly that they are quite simply 'wrong'.

Until those hard core mind sets and religious extremist doctrines can be overcome, then unfortunately we will always have a mismatch in the worlds tolerance of each other.

Cargo cults existed in the stone age settlements of the Melanesian Islands until the 1970s and when they first came into contact with French rubber planters who had aeroplanes, metal tools and mirrors etc they simply put it down to the French having a better way of communicating with the ancestors from whom all good things came. 
Rather than think of the foreign invaders as being "wrong" they thought of them as enlightened, almost God-like as the John Frum subcult demonstrated.
Your oversimplification of cultural interpretation fits your theory but doesn't bear scrutiny especially when applied in a sweeping generalisation as you have done.

Yes because John Frum is exactly like extreme Islamism.



You just carry on believing that and I'll save my breath in attempting to enlighten you any further.

No son, the cargo cults are nothing like fundamental Islam which is the point I was making and exactly why your sweeping generalisation is a load of bollocks.

wanderlust wrote:

Sluffy wrote:Yes because John Frum is exactly like extreme Islamism.



You just carry on believing that and I'll save my breath in attempting to enlighten you any further.

No son, the cargo cults are nothing like fundamental Islam which is the point I was making and exactly why your sweeping generalisation is a load of bollocks.

Thank you but I'm not your son nor would ever wish to be.

I don't even know why I'm wasting my time replying but I refer you back to my original post that you have decided to take a slice of and proceed down your own little cul-de-sac with.

Sluffy wrote:

okocha wrote:I'd begun to think that to be able to commit such evil, you'd have to be insane or completely stoned. 

However, some recent BBC news footage showed very young school pupils being indoctrinated, having their minds twisted in order to become the next generation of IS soldiers. I suppose this is an example of being drug-addled, but by a different name and method.

It is all about knowledge and education.

If you are brought up in a home and culture that lives to a certain way of life - then you simply don't know any different and go on to raise your own children in the same way.

When you do meet people from a different culture who do things differently, you automatically think (believe) they are doing it wrong.

Some people (most I guess) can learnt to tolerate or adapt to new ways they come into contact with but a number just can't or won't.

Religion really is an early form of controlling people and getting them to live the same way as each other.  Whilst the west shook off this religious control century's ago the Islamic country's still are dominated by religion still controlling them (the leadership, their laws, their way of thinking, etc).

Until this control comes to an end there will always be people who sees things as 'us and them' from both sides of the cultural divide.

As Glos referred to above the Islamic extremist perpetrating these acts of terrorism are doing it because it is what they believe in.

Where then did they get this belief?

They didn't just one day wake up and say 'I know, I'll go and commit an atrocity'.

They were brought up in that culture.

We aren't talking about some South Sea Islanders wanting the white man to go home like your cargo cults - we are talking about a religious doctrine that extremists believe should dominate the world and that if you don't believe in it, then you should die!

The IS have even been killing Shia Muslims simply because they follow (in their opinion) the wrong branch of Islamic worship!

Whilst some people wish to perpetuate this religious intolerance born out of ignorance then nothing much will ever change.

The differences in Shia and Sunni Muslim faiths are more political than religious. One faction believes others should have lead after the death of Mohamed, possibly nominated by God himself while the other faction thought that the appointment of Ali bin Abu Talib was wrong. It's generaly explained as the differences between Prod and Catholic. Same religion but differences in wordhip.
Then we fecked it up by a series of crusades in the 11th to 13th centuries, fighting to regain and keep jerusalem. A pope set up the first crusade and the Muslims fought back. So they are the true believers and others are non-believers (Kuffirs) and there's a bit of a note in the Koran about smiting non-believers on the neck and getting rid of them wherever, thus Jihad. They've been shown lots of ways to carry out their Jihad over the years.
One of the biggies in Muslim funding is our friends in Saudi Arabia and other Middle East countries with their continued building of Wahhabi mosques in the West, and the teachings of extremist views.

Just to clarify the history: one point people tend to forget is that the Crusades were a series of attempts to recover formerly Christian territory from the Muslim occupiers. Until the Arabs converted to Islam and invaded the former Roman empire the whole of Palestine was Christian.

There were crusades in Spain and Portugal but nobody gets worked up about them because the Christians won there unlike in the Middle East.

xmiles wrote:Just to clarify the history: one point people tend to forget is that the Crusades were a series of attempts to recover formerly Christian territory from the Muslim occupiers. Until the Arabs converted to Islam and invaded the former Roman empire the whole of Palestine was Christian.

There were crusades in Spain and Portugal but nobody gets worked up about them because the Christians won there unlike in the Middle East.

The Crusades (11th, 12th and a bit of the 13th century) were used by various popes and politicians to sanction the settling of various scores, gain personal wealth and to achieve a range of political objectives only some of which involved failed attempts to "recapture the Holy Land" as a justification for rampaging and pillaging armies.
And the Moors conquered Spain and Portugal 300 years before the First Crusade and continued to rule until the reconquista some 200 years after the Crusades finished so the attempts to "liberate" Iberia also failed. The Moors (not Arabs) ruled for nearly 800 years.
However Spain and Portugal didn't actually exist at this time - it was just a bunch of kingdoms, some Muslim, some Christian who fought amongst each other and formed alliances, not on religious lines but on the basis of political expediency. 
It was only much later that historians started to use the idea of religious-based war as a means to justify the new emergent nationalisms, but at the time it made no odds who supported who as long as it led to power and wealth.