This is our chance to get out off Horwich.

It was a genuine question, what with you being all sourced-up and stuff.....bloody hell!

Bit tetchy today.

Blood pressure ok?

(And you could have just swerved it like you do with Lusty's questions by simply saying: "Sorry - confidentiality and all that" instead of getting arsey.)

scottjames30 wrote:The Reebok was always built too big for a club like ours.

We were getting 26,000 regular as clock work in the Premiership.



No one watches footie in Championship, let alone 1st division anymore. Though do remember us pulling in 25,000 in the third division under Jimmy Armfield.



Think we could make use of Leverhulme park athletic stadium. Could hire temporary seating , should give 5000 a seat

There are all sorts of league requirements, which differ between leagues, re number of turnstiles, what minimum attendance, officials facilities, size of dressing rooms etc etc etc. If it ever comes to this, and someone leads a lets reform Bolton thing, I'll happily offer any advice they may want. IMO the trick is to build for what you have, with possibility of growing, AND (THIS IS IMPORTANT) ensure an income stream from it 364 days a year accruing to the club, not the development partner.

So a bouncy castle in the car park is a pre-requisite then?

Chairmanda wrote:There are all sorts of league requirements, which differ between leagues, re number of turnstiles, what minimum attendance, officials facilities, size of dressing rooms etc etc etc. If it ever comes to this, and someone leads a lets reform Bolton thing, I'll happily offer any advice they may want. IMO the trick is to build for what you have, with possibility of growing, AND (THIS IS IMPORTANT) ensure an income stream from it 364 days a year accruing to the club, not the development partner.

Basically how the Macron was built. All those pop concerts and boxing matches we were going to have. Now look where we are?

I used to live near a bloke who went regularly in our prem days,but the day after we were relegated the stickers came off his car windows,the BWFC sticker disappeared from his living room window,and his season ticket became history.
I asked him why he'd stopped going,and his reply was 'I'm not watching Championship shite'.
It's an all too prevalent attitude these days.
Many supporters simply can't afford to go,but this guy, and people like him,view going to a football match as something akin to going to the theatre,where they expect to be entertained and uplifted by what they see.
That's not how I see it. I've watched some absolute dross over the years,but if,after 90 minutes of horrible,boot it up the middle,get on the end of that son,garbage,we come away with a 1-0 win and three points,I'm heading for the car park with a big smile and a pumping fist. Get in.
Football will always change. But I won't.

FullofSprite wrote:

Chairmanda wrote:There are all sorts of league requirements, which differ between leagues, re number of turnstiles, what minimum attendance, officials facilities, size of dressing rooms etc etc etc. If it ever comes to this, and someone leads a lets reform Bolton thing, I'll happily offer any advice they may want. IMO the trick is to build for what you have, with possibility of growing, AND (THIS IS IMPORTANT) ensure an income stream from it 364 days a year accruing to the club, not the development partner.

Basically how the Macron was built. All those pop concerts and boxing matches we were going to have. Now look where we are?

sort of, but those are also one off events which can make or lose money. I mean more a jv with a hotel, petrol station, doctors surgery...almost dont care what, where there is some form of profit share, but also a fixed rental income. You can put that figure in your budget with 99% confidence then you know you have a fallback amount to keep to pay your commitments in terms of contracts or suppliers and let the football side find its own level where attendances equals wages. Radical I know, but its how football has to be.

boltonbonce wrote:I used to live near a bloke who went regularly in our prem days,but the day after we were relegated the stickers came off his car windows,the BWFC sticker disappeared from his living room window,and his season ticket became history.
I asked him why he'd stopped going,and his reply was 'I'm not watching Championship shite'.
It's an all too prevalent attitude these days.
Many supporters simply can't afford to go,but this guy, and people like him,view going to a football match as something akin to going to the theatre,where they expect to be entertained and uplifted by what they see.
That's not how I see it. I've watched some absolute dross over the years,but if,after 90 minutes of horrible,boot it up the middle,get on the end of that son,garbage,we come away with a 1-0 win and three points,I'm heading for the car park with a big smile and a pumping fist. Get in.
Football will always change. But I won't.

a bit of me dies every time you post today and you approach 10500. I'm going out for an hour, please still be here when I get back, you wouldn't want to make me cry would you boncey?

Chairmanda wrote:

FullofSprite wrote:

Chairmanda wrote:There are all sorts of league requirements, which differ between leagues, re number of turnstiles, what minimum attendance, officials facilities, size of dressing rooms etc etc etc. If it ever comes to this, and someone leads a lets reform Bolton thing, I'll happily offer any advice they may want. IMO the trick is to build for what you have, with possibility of growing, AND (THIS IS IMPORTANT) ensure an income stream from it 364 days a year accruing to the club, not the development partner.

Basically how the Macron was built. All those pop concerts and boxing matches we were going to have. Now look where we are?

sort of, but those are also one off events which can make or lose money. I mean more a jv with a hotel, petrol station, doctors surgery...almost dont care what, where there is some form of profit share, but also a fixed rental income. You can put that figure in your budget with 99% confidence then you know you have a fallback amount to keep to pay your commitments in terms of contracts or suppliers and let the football side find its own level where attendances equals wages. Radical I know, but its how football has to be.

They do have the lawyers firm underneath the stadium. The Hotel and the conference rooms. They were planning office blocks but didn't get anywhere under Gartside


BTW what's wrong with Horwich?

I  don't think that selling the assets then sorting the team out, paying off the debts and creating some  financial reserves to futureproof the club would leave anything like enough left to build a 15k seater stadium from scratch at today's prices.

In fact I don't think there would be anything left at all. Non-starter IMO.

Boggersbelief wrote:

Breadman wrote:Boggers,

While you're on, you told us on Thursday that the HMRC thing was "just a small bill" which would be "settled by next week".

Any word on that?

Is it next week already?

Is it "next week" yet?

All this waiting for next week's getting very boring.

It must be "next week" by now, surely....?

I'm beginning to feel like Billy Bunter. Waiting desperately for the Postal Order,that will never arrive.

While a return to Bolton holds a definite sentimental attraction the truth is that the Macron is actually a pretty good stadium and superbly located for the modern game. The facilities and easy transport links are precisely what the modern football fan wants and I doubt we could build anything like as suitable a place anywhere in the town itself or that the council would be willing to let us. God knows how much money would be required even if we got planning permission and we'd simply wind up with another huge debt because there's no way the club could finance such a thing from turnover alone. Sorry, as much as I miss the Burnden Park days I believe this is a non-starter even if Sheikh Fatwalleta took us over tomorrow.

Just for the sake of argument I'll go the other way......years back when they built a stadium with a max of 28,000 I said we were done for ...... that indicates that we will never be a big club again or want to be.....how you like that opinion?

I was at Burnden once with 42,000 on ....... best atmosphere ever.
Here in the USA people travel 30, 40, 50 miles to home games for the NFL.  So a 10 minute trip to Horwich is laughable to me at least.

terenceanne wrote:Just for the sake of argument I'll go the other way......years back when they built a stadium with a max of 28,000 I said we were done for ...... that indicates that we will never be a big club again or want to be.....how you like that opinion?

I was at Burnden once with 42,000 on ....... best atmosphere ever.
Here in the USA people travel 30, 40, 50 miles to home games for the NFL.  So a 10 minute trip to Horwich is laughable to me at least.

Well, for one thing our entire country is smaller than some of the States. Driving fifty miles in Texas is a quick trip to the off licence for a few more cans and a packet of fags.

Seriously though, councils today don't like having a football ground in the middle of their town. Quite aside from the potential for violence between rival sets of idiotic hooligans they don't like the disruption of having several thousand people all clogging up their streets while the Police prefer there to be as little distance as possible between the ground and the local transport links. Local residents tend to object strongly to having a facility like that built near their homes as well which is why every time a club has moved to a new stadium over the last thirty years or so it's been built on the very edge of or just outside their team's home town. I understand where you're coming from because I loved Burnden Park too but there's one other factor to consider. Cost. Land to develop a football stadium would cost a huge amount more in a town than it would on brownfield land just outside it. Add in that transport links and other infrastructure would have to be built around the ground and that doing that in a town would cause massive long term disruption and you can see why councils don't want to do it. 

When The Macron was built everything around it was built to support it, ie the road links, the train station, the shopping centre etc and it cost a LOT less to build it all bespoke than it would have cost to redevelop a ground in the middle of Bolton with no disruption to existing businesses and traffic flow in the town. 

For all those reasons I believe there is no way in hell we'll see a Bolton Wanderers Football Club stadium inside Bolton itself again. I would certainly have preferred it to be a bit closer to its home town than it is but I fully understand why it was built where it now stands and why it doesn't have a 60K capacity. There is room to expand it should we ever need to but the sad fact is we rarely filled all 28000 seats when we were in the top half of the Premier League so I can't see us doing that often enough to justify an expansion any time soon.

luckyPeterpiper wrote:

terenceanne wrote:Just for the sake of argument I'll go the other way......years back when they built a stadium with a max of 28,000 I said we were done for ...... that indicates that we will never be a big club again or want to be.....how you like that opinion?

I was at Burnden once with 42,000 on ....... best atmosphere ever.
Here in the USA people travel 30, 40, 50 miles to home games for the NFL.  So a 10 minute trip to Horwich is laughable to me at least.

Well, for one thing our entire country is smaller than some of the States. Driving fifty miles in Texas is a quick trip to the off licence for a few more cans and a packet of fags.

Seriously though, councils today don't like having a football ground in the middle of their town. Quite aside from the potential for violence between rival sets of idiotic hooligans they don't like the disruption of having several thousand people all clogging up their streets while the Police prefer there to be as little distance as possible between the ground and the local transport links. Local residents tend to object strongly to having a facility like that built near their homes as well which is why every time a club has moved to a new stadium over the last thirty years or so it's been built on the very edge of or just outside their team's home town. I understand where you're coming from because I loved Burnden Park too but there's one other factor to consider. Cost. Land to develop a football stadium would cost a huge amount more in a town than it would on brownfield land just outside it. Add in that transport links and other infrastructure would have to be built around the ground and that doing that in a town would cause massive long term disruption and you can see why councils don't want to do it. 

When The Macron was built everything around it was built to support it, ie the road links, the train station, the shopping centre etc and it cost a LOT less to build it all bespoke than it would have cost to redevelop a ground in the middle of Bolton with no disruption to existing businesses and traffic flow in the town. 

For all those reasons I believe there is no way in hell we'll see a Bolton Wanderers Football Club stadium inside Bolton itself again. I would certainly have preferred it to be a bit closer to its home town than it is but I fully understand why it was built where it now stands and why it doesn't have a 60K capacity. There is room to expand it should we ever need to but the sad fact is we rarely filled all 28000 seats when we were in the top half of the Premier League so I can't see us doing that often enough to justify an expansion any time soon.

Following up on some of your points just for interest. In the USA the city actually wants the team to be in town or close to it....they want all the business that 60k people bring to the town every weekend. Some cases the tax payers actually pay for the new stadium. The mentality is all different. Hooligans don't really exist and it's more family stuff all spending money in hotels, resturants, shopping etc. 
As we speak they are talking about moving an NFL team back to Los Angeles...that would be like moving Everton to Birmingham etc....perspectives are different I suppose.

I understand what you're saying terrence but I think it's down to a very different mentality. In America sports teams are by and large franchises that are known by the franchise name rather than the city/town they happen to be in. eg the dodgers, the raiders, the red sox etc. Several of them have moved down the years, (correct me if I'm wrong but weren't the LA Dodgers once the Brooklyn Dodgers until they moved 3000 miles?). IN England the football teams are more of a local thing, some of them like us have been attached to a particular town or city for well over a century and when Wimbledon decided to move to Milton Keynes it caused a hell of a row throughout the game with an announcement from the FA they would never allow such a thing again. 

Add in that most towns and police forces are still a bit paranoid from the days in the seventies and eighties when hooliganism was rife and you can see why they're still not comfortable with the idea of an in-town football ground. Many local businesses would probably benefit hugely from having ten thousand or more people coming to town every couple of weeks but the cost of policing it would be too prohibitive for most clubs and if taxpayers were told to fund it there'd be howls of protest bouncing off the moon. I suspect that in the long term only very large clubs like the two Manchester sides, Newcastle, Sunderland, Leeds and a few others will still have stadia actually in the city they represent. Part of that is down to the fact that redeveloping a ground that's anything up to a hundred and fifty years old to meet modern H and S standards and people's requirements for amenities etc would be a lot more expensive than to move a few miles to open ground and build from scratch. I agree it would be nice to have every team's home ground actually inside the town or city they are named for but can't see it happening.

luckyPeterpiper wrote:I understand what you're saying terrence but I think it's down to a very different mentality. In America sports teams are by and large franchises that are known by the franchise name rather than the city/town they happen to be in. eg the dodgers, the raiders, the red sox etc. Several of them have moved down the years, (correct me if I'm wrong but weren't the LA Dodgers once the Brooklyn Dodgers until they moved 3000 miles?). IN England the football teams are more of a local thing, some of them like us have been attached to a particular town or city for well over a century and when Wimbledon decided to move to Milton Keynes it caused a hell of a row throughout the game with an announcement from the FA they would never allow such a thing again. 

Add in that most towns and police forces are still a bit paranoid from the days in the seventies and eighties when hooliganism was rife and you can see why they're still not comfortable with the idea of an in-town football ground. Many local businesses would probably benefit hugely from having ten thousand or more people coming to town every couple of weeks but the cost of policing it would be too prohibitive for most clubs and if taxpayers were told to fund it there'd be howls of protest bouncing off the moon. I suspect that in the long term only very large clubs like the two Manchester sides, Newcastle, Sunderland, Leeds and a few others will still have stadia actually in the city they represent. Part of that is down to the fact that redeveloping a ground that's anything up to a hundred and fifty years old to meet modern H and S standards and people's requirements for amenities etc would be a lot more expensive than to move a few miles to open ground and build from scratch. I agree it would be nice to have every team's home ground actually inside the town or city they are named for but can't see it happening.

Correct about the mentality. IMO the days of local teams are coming to an end ...probably in the next 30 years say.
A massive reorg of the leagues and teams will have to be done.  I can't fathom how 3rd and 4th division clubs operate now never mind in the future.
Bournmouth have a stadium that seats 11,000 and currently living the dream.....in five years they could be belly up just has quickly. Its the finances of sports I'm afraid.

Movement of American Sports Teams showing we have greedy owners who will go anywhere that offers them more money or a free stadium.

• 1902: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] moved to [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and became the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.].
  
• 1903: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] moved to [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and became the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]. The team was renamed the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] in [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.].
  
• 1953: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] moved to [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]. This was the first relocation in 50 years. During those 50 years, there had also been no expansions or contractions—Major League Baseball had consisted of the same 16 teams, 8 in each league, playing in the same 10 cities without interruption for half a century.
  
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• 1970: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] moved to Milwaukee and became the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]. The AL granted [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] a new [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] in [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.].
  
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• 1951: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], who played their home games in [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], moved to [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and became the Hawks.
  
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• 1957: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] moved to Detroit.
  
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• 1963: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] moved to [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and became the Bullets.
  
• 1963: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] moved to Philadelphia and became the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.].
  
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• 1972: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] moved to a new primary home in [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and a secondary home in [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], and became the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]. The team ceased playing home games in Omaha in 1975.
  
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• 1979: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] moved to [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and were renamed the Utah Jazz.
  
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  • At the same time that the name change to "Hornets" was announced, it was also revealed that the Hornets, the league, and the franchise now known as the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] had reached an agreement that the history of the original Charlotte Hornets would belong exclusively to the current Hornets.^{[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.][You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]} As a result, the NBA now considers the Charlotte Hornets to have begun play in the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], suspended operations following the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], returned as the Bobcats beginning with the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], and renamed the Hornets beginning with the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], while the New Orleans Pelicans kept their history as the Hornets from relocation in [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.].
    
  
  
  
• 2005: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] moved temporarily to [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] following [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and became the New Orleans/Oklahoma City Hornets.
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• 1921: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Staleys moved to [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and became the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] one year later.
  
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• 1982: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] moved to Los Angeles. The NFL refused permission for the move, but the team won the right to relocate in a court case.
  
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• 1995: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] moved back to [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] after 13 previous seasons. Also, the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] moved to [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.].
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• 1996: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] moved to [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and became the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]. The move was one of the most controversial in major professional sports history. In response to a fan revolt and legal threats, the NFL awarded a new franchise to Cleveland in [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], which for historical purposes is considered a continuation of the original Browns franchise.
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• 1997: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] moved to [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and became the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]. The team originally planned to play both 1997 and 1998 in [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] in Memphis before moving to their intended destination of [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]. However, due to poor attendance, the team moved to Nashville in 1998, playing in [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]. The team was renamed as the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] in 1999, when [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] was opened. The NFL granted [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] a new [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] in [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.].
  

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• 1978: The Cleveland Barons franchise merged with the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.].
  Further information: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
  
• 1980: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] moved to [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]; Atlanta was awarded an [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] in [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], which relocated to [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] in [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.].
  
• 1982: Colorado Rockies moved to [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and became the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.].
  
• 1993: Minnesota North Stars moved to [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and became the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]; Minnesota was awarded an [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] in [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.].
  
• 1995: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] moved to Denver and became the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.].
  
• 1996: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] moved to [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and became the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]. The team changed its geographic name to Arizona prior to the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.].
  
• 1997: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] moved to [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and became the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]. For the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] seasons, they played home games in [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] while their intended home, the venue now known as [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], was under construction in Raleigh.
  
• 2011: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] moved to [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and became the current version of the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.].
  

Turton moved to Bolton and became Christ Church who became BWFC.