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How low can we go?

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Bollotom2014
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terenceanne
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wanderlust
rammywhite
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41How low can we go? - Page 3 Empty Re: How low can we go? Tue Mar 29 2016, 13:24

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

I have mused previously that it seemed fairly certain that Davies was not the sole backer of the club and that maybe the sale of the club was a mechanism for somehow transferring the remaining assets to the others who had invested and had wanted to get their hands on something more tangible for themselves.

It does seem unbelievable on the face of it that Holdsworth's consortium has any conventional business plan to revive the club without seriously risking millions of loss and that asset stripping appeared to be the only sane option available to him to get money from owning the club in the short term.

It did seem a long drawn out sale for a club clearly bust and burdened with player wage debt for at the very least the next season or two, so why then was Holdsworth so keen to get his hands on it?
 
Clearly the Football League have the concerns over the viability of the business plan, so it seems financially risky to say the least.

A scenario whereby Davies and his fellow investors had a bust up behind the scenes and has led to a somewhat bitter split leading to the transfer of the club from Davies hands to theirs may well seem far fetched but it does explain Holdsworth group doggishness to buy the club even though it looks to be a huge financial risk he is taking on with no apparent money behind him.  The links to others who feasibly are linked between Davies and Holdsworth and may have been investors behind both parties (Davies originally, now Holdsworth) - Allardyce, Brown, Reid, Anderson (football agent), etc.  The hardball from Davies not to pay the tax bill and face Administration - because he knew Holdsworth would not risk the club entering Admin and risk losing out to others.  And the silliness and goalpost moving he apparently carried out even though he clearly wanted to exit the club.

It probably is a load of bollocks but it does sort of fit the facts and gives us a conspiracy theory to chat about!

42How low can we go? - Page 3 Empty Re: How low can we go? Tue Mar 29 2016, 13:53

terenceanne

terenceanne
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf

I do not think it's a conspiracy as such .....  just straight business albeit a bit dodgy. SS has a way to make money with all this or it's some sort of tax fiddle.  All parties take a loss on investment etc.
As I said in a post above...I think they will do whatever to make/lose money then turn around and sell the club again. Without Eddie blocking any further deals they can do whatever they want.
There are no intentions yet announced to do anything with us in a footballing sense .... so unless Sheik Yahody  appears out of the woodwork with a pile of cash we are done for IMO.

43How low can we go? - Page 3 Empty Re: How low can we go? Tue Mar 29 2016, 13:54

rammywhite

rammywhite
Frank Worthington
Frank Worthington

observer wrote:
rammywhite wrote:
gloswhite wrote:Can ED legally make such moves ?

There's nothing to stop him- but we really have entered the realms of fantasy here(as Captain Mainwaring would say).
A bit of parallel universe is always interesting but conjecturing on what ED is up to has now reached ludicrous levels. ED has gone- he's not hanging around in the background pulling strings. He may have residual loans left in the club but any suggestion that he's manoeuvring and manipulating in the background to gain some sort of financial advantage is simply overexcited imaginations working overtime. Conspiracy theories such as this invariably turn out to be nonsense.
Fantasyworld does not explain the machinations here.

First and foremost... were their multiple bidders?  If so, then why take a bid that has little to no financial backing?  This is built on the premise that SS has the backing of loans... from groups looking to make money on their investment.  Then someone needs to explain how a team being relegated, without parachute payments, holding long-term contracts of malcontents who are not playing up to their abilities, can make money for these investors? With no hard cash in the kitty, and with these long-term contracts, how can the club make five pence in League One?  How does SS propose to pay back these loans?  The only way of bringing in money is to strip the assets to pay back the loans.  Remember, this is also the only bidder who is keeping ED's name as President, and paying him if within a certain period, the club returns to profitability. 

This is not a conspiracy based question on whether there is a master or masters pulling the puppet's strings. Deano does not have the money himself.  His major backer pulled out just before the court hearing.  There is no hard cash involved.  So how and why did SS get this deal, and how can they pay back their loans?  The club will not win 6 of their last games to stay up... we haven't done that all season.  No one even wants to take our high priced ponces for free on loan.  Nothing bodes well for the future of the club.  Yes, there is a nucleus of young players who might give us an advantage next season... but there is no money to sign them again. 

Perhaps the late PG understood why he signed players without relegation clauses.  Perhaps he understood signing some of them to long term contracts when they were making way too much for the championship, let alone League One.  Perhaps the thinking was we would be back up in one season. 

We couldn't even off-load Mark Davies, who has talent, but is not playing up to his ability for us.  He is a lucky bloke who has been paid for years for not playing.  Now he holds up the future of the club.  He should have been off and helped to save the club which has paid him millions for recovery.

Football is mercenary.  Everyone wants to make money... but someone needs to figure out how this club can return a profit on this investment.  If this is not possible, then we turn to underlying theories which speculate on the reasons.  No, this is not Fantasyland, but reality of return on investments.

Observer- I don't disagree with your analysis. The whole thing has an unpleasant aroma about it and I've said in another thread that I think the worst is yet to come. What I have trouble with is the fantasy that somehow Saint Eddie has become Satan Eddie full of machinations and evil plotting in the background to gain some sort of financial gain from this on going farce. People have got Eddie as one of the financial backers of SS -so he's buying the club which he owns from himself! Its this sort of stuff that is in the realms of fantasy.

44How low can we go? - Page 3 Empty Re: How low can we go? Tue Mar 29 2016, 16:49

observer


Andy Walker
Andy Walker

rammywhite wrote:
observer wrote:
rammywhite wrote:
gloswhite wrote:Can ED legally make such moves ?

There's nothing to stop him- but we really have entered the realms of fantasy here(as Captain Mainwaring would say).
A bit of parallel universe is always interesting but conjecturing on what ED is up to has now reached ludicrous levels. ED has gone- he's not hanging around in the background pulling strings. He may have residual loans left in the club but any suggestion that he's manoeuvring and manipulating in the background to gain some sort of financial advantage is simply overexcited imaginations working overtime. Conspiracy theories such as this invariably turn out to be nonsense.
Fantasyworld does not explain the machinations here.

First and foremost... were their multiple bidders?  If so, then why take a bid that has little to no financial backing?  This is built on the premise that SS has the backing of loans... from groups looking to make money on their investment.  Then someone needs to explain how a team being relegated, without parachute payments, holding long-term contracts of malcontents who are not playing up to their abilities, can make money for these investors? With no hard cash in the kitty, and with these long-term contracts, how can the club make five pence in League One?  How does SS propose to pay back these loans?  The only way of bringing in money is to strip the assets to pay back the loans.  Remember, this is also the only bidder who is keeping ED's name as President, and paying him if within a certain period, the club returns to profitability. 

This is not a conspiracy based question on whether there is a master or masters pulling the puppet's strings. Deano does not have the money himself.  His major backer pulled out just before the court hearing.  There is no hard cash involved.  So how and why did SS get this deal, and how can they pay back their loans?  The club will not win 6 of their last games to stay up... we haven't done that all season.  No one even wants to take our high priced ponces for free on loan.  Nothing bodes well for the future of the club.  Yes, there is a nucleus of young players who might give us an advantage next season... but there is no money to sign them again. 

Perhaps the late PG understood why he signed players without relegation clauses.  Perhaps he understood signing some of them to long term contracts when they were making way too much for the championship, let alone League One.  Perhaps the thinking was we would be back up in one season. 

We couldn't even off-load Mark Davies, who has talent, but is not playing up to his ability for us.  He is a lucky bloke who has been paid for years for not playing.  Now he holds up the future of the club.  He should have been off and helped to save the club which has paid him millions for recovery.

Football is mercenary.  Everyone wants to make money... but someone needs to figure out how this club can return a profit on this investment.  If this is not possible, then we turn to underlying theories which speculate on the reasons.  No, this is not Fantasyland, but reality of return on investments.

Observer- I don't disagree with your analysis. The whole thing has an unpleasant aroma about it and I've said in another thread that I think the worst is yet to come. What I have trouble with is the fantasy that somehow Saint Eddie has become Satan Eddie full of machinations and evil plotting in the background to gain some sort of financial gain from this on going farce. People have got Eddie as one of the financial backers of SS -so he's buying the club which he owns from himself! Its this sort of stuff that is in the realms of fantasy.
Rammy - Not sure what you are disagreeing with.  The basic premise is this deal does not make good economic sense.  Obviously someone (albeit I don't know who is backing this consortium) is pulling the strings.  But you have to agree, that if this makes no economic sense, then there are other motivations... like asset stripping.  This leads others to speculate on the true ownership of the team.  I'm not saying it is ED... but someone is loaning the money and that someone wants to make money on that money!

45How low can we go? - Page 3 Empty Re: How low can we go? Tue Mar 29 2016, 17:20

rammywhite

rammywhite
Frank Worthington
Frank Worthington

I agree that the current strategic arrangements are ramshackle, possible financially unsound and  the ownership of dubious provenance. I agree that it is quite possible that there are figures in the background who may have ulterior motives and who they are is not in the public domain.
What I serially disagree with is the suggestion that ED is still in the background pulling strings,attempting to make money (how God only knows) from the corpse. I just can't see that- there is no evidence ,no logic that would suggest that that is possible.

46How low can we go? - Page 3 Empty Re: How low can we go? Tue Mar 29 2016, 18:18

luckyPeterpiper

luckyPeterpiper
Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo

I don't know or frankly care if ED is still involved or not. What worries me is there's no logical reason to believe this deal is a good one for either side and that given the fact SS have already managed to mortgage most of the really tangible assets and don't seem to have any capital in reserve. 

The fact we're still under the transfer embargo that prevented us from signing a player who offered to play for nothing and that the league has no confidence in the deal and wants to see the books every month for at least eighteen months all adds up to very worrying times in my opinion. 

Sending our higher earners out on subsidised loans would be all very well but how? We can't replace them even if we could find someone to take them on. The more I look at the current circumstances and the longer the silence from the new ownership about how they see the future goes on the more worried I become.

47How low can we go? - Page 3 Empty Re: How low can we go? Tue Mar 29 2016, 18:50

observer


Andy Walker
Andy Walker

rammywhite wrote:I agree that the current strategic arrangements are ramshackle, possible financially unsound and  the ownership of dubious provenance. I agree that it is quite possible that there are figures in the background who may have ulterior motives and who they are is not in the public domain.
What I serially disagree with is the suggestion that ED is still in the background pulling strings,attempting to make money (how God only knows) from the corpse. I just can't see that- there is no evidence ,no logic that would suggest that that is possible.
I think we are all in agreement... no one understands how this can be done economically without stripping the assets of the club.  The bottom line is we will be in Division One with Premier League salaries for a bunch of players... and no money to keep the youngsters who have shown promise.  I hope Deano has some good and unique ideas of how to make it work.  It's really difficult to understand being on the outside looking in.

48How low can we go? - Page 3 Empty Re: How low can we go? Tue Mar 29 2016, 20:29

gloswhite

gloswhite
Guðni Bergsson
Guðni Bergsson

Start saving your pennies chaps, we may well be asked to sponsor individual players.

49How low can we go? - Page 3 Empty Re: How low can we go? Wed Mar 30 2016, 20:38

FullofSprite


Nicolas Anelka
Nicolas Anelka

wanderlust wrote:
Sluffy wrote:
Then again Holdsworth / Anderson must have known this so maybe they have a plan to survive that is somewhat more radical than anything I can think of?
That's the key. None of us with business finance knowledge can see from the information in the public domain how the loan SS made approaches the requisite level to sustain the club over the next few years given the costs we are aware of.
It just doesn't stack up.
We can see the obvious savings in player salaries that could be made were the contracts not so restrictive but apart from that the club appears to be running on exhaust fumes.
Either there's a completely unknown factor that we have not been made aware of or SS are even bigger idiots than the previous owners/management team.
Or they are just going to sell everything and piss off.
I'm sure I read somewhere that they would be getting more funding later. Think it's a case of DON'T PANIC Mr Mainwaring

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