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423 Re: Economy watch Fri Nov 25 2016, 11:51
wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Basically Saudi and the Gulf States are the main creditors as financiers of the WB and the West owes it's survival to them hence the lax approach to the Al Saud family's political wranglings. But they can't call in the debt as we'd bully them.xmiles wrote:wanderlust wrote:National debt is a weird one because there's no way that the big western military powers are ever going to pay the world bank back. It's just a way of robbing the Arabs to fuel the perpetual growth needed to maintain out-of-control population growth.
Austerity and telling folk to stop breeding if they can't afford kids will never happen.
You are going to have to explain that one to me. How are we "robbing the Arabs"? Saudi and the Gulf states have vast oil reserves which they make big profits out of selling to other countries.
Gulf States are so wealthy they are bankrolling everyone else in return for being allowed to keep their lifestyle and keep the Al Saud's and Al Thani's etc in power. Hencc the unrest.
424 Re: Economy watch Wed Dec 07 2016, 13:54
wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
New research has cast fresh light on who decided to vote Leave in June's referendum - and provides further evidence of how they saw off the Remainers.
The National Centre for Social Research report is based on a "synthesis of evidence" from the British Social Attitudes Survey of 3,000 adults; the NCSR's own panel of almost 4,000 people, in May/June and September; and the British Election Study Panel of around 30,000 people.
For those saying they were likely to vote Remain, the non-voting figure was 19%.
The Remain vote "clearly softened during the campaign", the report finds.
"This must raise questions about the ability of the Remain campaign to 'get out the vote'," it says.
The report says 88% of those who thought immigration was the biggest issue voted Leave, and 90% of those who chose sovereignty.
Among those citing the economy, it was 15%.
The rates of Leave voting among people looked at by the newspapers read most often were:
When questioned on their feelings about life, the people most likely to vote Leave were:
The National Centre for Social Research report is based on a "synthesis of evidence" from the British Social Attitudes Survey of 3,000 adults; the NCSR's own panel of almost 4,000 people, in May/June and September; and the British Election Study Panel of around 30,000 people.
Turnout
The National Centre for Social Research finds that of those who told it in May that they were likely to vote Leave, 11% did not actually vote.For those saying they were likely to vote Remain, the non-voting figure was 19%.
The Remain vote "clearly softened during the campaign", the report finds.
"This must raise questions about the ability of the Remain campaign to 'get out the vote'," it says.
Big issues
The issues cited as the most important in deciding people's referendum position were:- The economy (21%)
- Immigration (20%)
- Sovereignty/EU bureaucracy (17%)
The report says 88% of those who thought immigration was the biggest issue voted Leave, and 90% of those who chose sovereignty.
Among those citing the economy, it was 15%.
Party
The proportion of people voting Leave, when looked at by party identification, was:- UKIP - 98%
- No affiliation - 70%
- Conservative - 58%
- Labour - 36%
- Liberal Democrat - 26%
- Green Party - 21%
Newspaper
The report says voters were more likely to "follow the position" of the newspaper they read than the political party they identified with.The rates of Leave voting among people looked at by the newspapers read most often were:
- Sun - 70%
- Express - 70%
- Mail - 66%
- Star - 65%
- Telegraph - 55%
- Mirror - 44%
- No newspaper - 41%
- Other paper - 33%
- Times - 30%
- Financial Times - 22%
- Independent - 15%
- Guardian - 9%
Groups
The people most likely to vote Leave were:- Those with no formal qualifications (78%)
- Those with an income of less than £1,200 a month (66%)
- Those in social housing provided by councils (70%) or housing associations (68%)
When questioned on their feelings about life, the people most likely to vote Leave were:
- Those finding it difficult to manage financially (70%), or just about getting by (60%)
- Those who believe Britain has got worse in last decade (73%)
- Those who think things have got worse for them in last decade (76%)
- Those who see themselves as English rather than British (74%)
425 Re: Economy watch Wed Dec 07 2016, 14:15
xmiles
Jay Jay Okocha
Thanks WL. No real surprises but clear confirmation that newspapers do influence behaviour and that there was a big (albeit misdirected) protest element in the vote.
426 Re: Economy watch Wed Dec 07 2016, 15:33
wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Thought I'd post it because it's the first survey with a decent sample size and it also tells us that the referendum was lost by the Remain voters not turning out on the day (19% compared to 11%) presumably because they assumed their vote wouldn't be needed.xmiles wrote:Thanks WL. No real surprises but clear confirmation that newspapers do influence behaviour and that there was a big (albeit misdirected) protest element in the vote.
It was an understandable assumption to make given that the unemployed, those in social housing and those without qualifications were mobilised en masse whereas statistically those groups don't usually bother to vote.
This indicates that the majority of British people may well have preferred to stay in the EU but if they don't exercise their democratic duty they lose to a motivated minority.
427 Re: Economy watch Wed Dec 07 2016, 15:48
NickFazer
El Hadji Diouf
Well I would have to say that those are most unsurprising revelations ever. The point has been made over and over again that the status quo works only for the few and disenfranchises large percentages of society, in this country, in Europe and in the USA. The vote was for change because what we have is not working.
428 Re: Economy watch Wed Dec 07 2016, 15:57
Sluffy
Admin
NickFazer wrote:Well I would have to say that those are most unsurprising revelations ever. The point has been made over and over again that the status quo works only for the few and disenfranchises large percentages of society, in this country, in Europe and in the USA. The vote was for change because what we have is not working.
Good post Nick and something I've been telling people (both on and away from this forum) for a great deal of time now but as the saying goes, 'there are non so deaf as those that will not hear'!
430 Re: Economy watch Wed Dec 07 2016, 16:49
xmiles
Jay Jay Okocha
Sluffy wrote:NickFazer wrote:Well I would have to say that those are most unsurprising revelations ever. The point has been made over and over again that the status quo works only for the few and disenfranchises large percentages of society, in this country, in Europe and in the USA. The vote was for change because what we have is not working.
Good post Nick and something I've been telling people (both on and away from this forum) for a great deal of time now but as the saying goes, 'there are non so deaf as those that will not hear'!
The problem is that leaving the EU won't make things better for the vast majority of those who voted for brexit. It is absurd to think that a Tory government unconstrained by the EU will do anything for the majority of the population - just look at the state of the NHS.
Just because something is shit doesn't mean it can't get shitter.
431 Re: Economy watch Wed Dec 07 2016, 16:53
wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
There's a difference between something not working and it being perceived as not working.NickFazer wrote:Well I would have to say that those are most unsurprising revelations ever. The point has been made over and over again that the status quo works only for the few and disenfranchises large percentages of society, in this country, in Europe and in the USA. The vote was for change because what we have is not working.
The demographics in the survey suggest that it's not working for those without qualifications, the unemployed and those who are in social housing - and yet those groups get better treatment in the UK than anywhere else in the world. Very few if any other countries provide housing and benefits for the "disenfranchised" on the scale of the UK.
Conclusion? That the unemployed etc in the UK have far higher expectations than their counterparts elsewhere.
And they clearly don't want the benefits they perceive as their right to be shared with refugees.
432 Re: Economy watch Wed Dec 07 2016, 17:03
finlaymcdanger
Frank Worthington
I'm having a bet on us not leaving.
433 Re: Economy watch Wed Dec 07 2016, 17:27
Sluffy
Admin
xmiles wrote:The problem is that leaving the EU won't make things better for the vast majority of those who voted for brexit. It is absurd to think that a Tory government unconstrained by the EU will do anything for the majority of the population - just look at the state of the NHS.
Just because something is shit doesn't mean it can't get shitter.
You just don't get it do you?
You know Brexit was the wrong decision for the country as a whole.
I know Brexit was the wrong decision for the country as a whole.
BUT the majority that went and voted were not bother about the country as a whole, they were bothered that as far as they were concerned they had got jack shit benefit out of being in the EU and seen their life's get steadily worse under it.
They got off THEIR arses to vote because they didn't want the same old shit for them anymore. They actually did something about it - because they were that fed up with it.
Yes, they probably will have a harder life now because of it but they are so pissed off with what they got in their lifetime that they are prepared to take that chance because it certainly wasn't going to get any better for them staying in the EU.
In the history of the world the ruling elite have always led the masses in the way they wanted to go until those at the bottom felt that ANY change was better for them than continuing as they were.
If you feel like your at the bottom of the pile than by taking a chance and changing the order of things you can't fall any lower than you are already, so why the hell not say 'I'm not going to take it any more' and vote for change.
It's been happening across the world in recent years - first the yolk of communism was thrown off by the people of many countrys, more recently the Arab Spring saw many country's overthrow (or try to) their long term dictators, now its the turn of the masses of the western world to rebel against those in authority - Brexit, Trump, the Italians have just gone against their leadership, the French fear Le Pen winning in France, and so on.
It might not be right and it might not make any sense to you but people have simply had enough of the way things were going and said 'no more'.
Just because you feel you've been dumped in the financial shit because of it doesn't mean that they are all wrong and you are right though.
434 Re: Economy watch Wed Dec 07 2016, 17:36
Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
xmiles wrote:Just because something is shit doesn't mean it can't get shitter.
You've just described Liam Trotter's Bolton career in one sentence.
435 Re: Economy watch Wed Dec 07 2016, 18:56
gloswhite
Guðni Bergsson
Nice post Sluffy, completely agree with you.Sluffy wrote:xmiles wrote:The problem is that leaving the EU won't make things better for the vast majority of those who voted for brexit. It is absurd to think that a Tory government unconstrained by the EU will do anything for the majority of the population - just look at the state of the NHS.
Just because something is shit doesn't mean it can't get shitter.
You just don't get it do you?
You know Brexit was the wrong decision for the country as a whole.
I know Brexit was the wrong decision for the country as a whole.
BUT the majority that went and voted were not bother about the country as a whole, they were bothered that as far as they were concerned they had got jack shit benefit out of being in the EU and seen their life's get steadily worse under it.
They got off THEIR arses to vote because they didn't want the same old shit for them anymore. They actually did something about it - because they were that fed up with it.
Yes, they probably will have a harder life now because of it but they are so pissed off with what they got in their lifetime that they are prepared to take that chance because it certainly wasn't going to get any better for them staying in the EU.
In the history of the world the ruling elite have always led the masses in the way they wanted to go until those at the bottom felt that ANY change was better for them than continuing as they were.
If you feel like your at the bottom of the pile than by taking a chance and changing the order of things you can't fall any lower than you are already, so why the hell not say 'I'm not going to take it any more' and vote for change.
It's been happening across the world in recent years - first the yolk of communism was thrown off by the people of many countrys, more recently the Arab Spring saw many country's overthrow (or try to) their long term dictators, now its the turn of the masses of the western world to rebel against those in authority - Brexit, Trump, the Italians have just gone against their leadership, the French fear Le Pen winning in France, and so on.
It might not be right and it might not make any sense to you but people have simply had enough of the way things were going and said 'no more'.
Just because you feel you've been dumped in the financial shit because of it doesn't mean that they are all wrong and you are right though.
436 Re: Economy watch Wed Dec 07 2016, 19:39
Reebok Trotter
Nat Lofthouse
Me too. It is what it is. The government is mandated to follow the wishes of the majority. Like it or lump it but we are stuck with it.
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