Brexit negotiations

wanderlust wrote:

gloswhite wrote:Thanks Wander. Sounds like a perfect explanation, and there's a bit of truth in the Adam Curtis argument as well, I think.

Come the revolution !, which will be prompted by too many people chasing too few resources, and the politicians pretending all is good. (not long to go now).

I tend to take Adam Curtis' stuff with a pinch of salt, but it is fact based, riveting and informative.

I still can't get over the fact that the Americans who built the dams in Afghanistan effectively created the heroin industry or the oil deal between Roosevelt and the Saudis opened the door for Islamic extremism.

it's 'The American Way'.

Yes he looks so very busy but there's nothing on his mind and his wavy hair continues not to grow.

Just to get back on topic, Downing Street have now produced a third model for Brexit and already they're arguing about it especially that arrogant little shit JRM.

So after version 1 (Brexit means Brexit) was laughed off the stage and version 2 (Brexit means something similar to Brexit but not what we originally said Brexit was) collapsed in the face of the realisation of what they'd gotten us into it's looking like version 3 (Brexit means whatever we can spin to offend the least number of voters possible) is being floated by Mayday.

I'll give it a week.

Is anyone surprised that Vote Leave cheated?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44704561

xmiles wrote:Is anyone surprised that Vote Leave cheated?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44704561

As it looks as though they have cheated the system and broke electoral laws, then, under current British legal system, it actually means that the referendum is null and void.

I wonder whether the Government will declare it null and void or continue with the mess.

bwfc71 wrote:
As it looks as though they have cheated the system and broke electoral laws, then, under current British legal system, it actually means that the referendum is null and void.

I wonder whether the Government will declare it null and void or continue with the mess.

Illegal or not, the government will take us to the promised land because it was the will of the people.

The promised land? Don't make me laugh! The Government are in turmoil and can't agree anything amongst themselves never mind the EU.
It'as going to be a disaster when we leave with no deal in place.

Natasha Whittam wrote:
Illegal or not, the government will take us to the promised land because it was the will of the people.

The less than a third of the population who voted to leave were "promised" loads of different things, and since last year they've gone back on/ruled out most of the "promises" made, so which promised land and which people are you on about? The corporates who engineered it or the mugs that swallowed their lies?

wanderlust wrote:The less than a third of the population who voted to leave were "promised" loads of different things

I seem to remember it was a 52% who voted to leave. Or are you counting the people who didn't bother voting in your stats?

Because that's their own fault.

Natasha Whittam wrote:

wanderlust wrote:The less than a third of the population who voted to leave were "promised" loads of different things

I seem to remember it was a 52% who voted to leave. Or are you counting the people who didn't bother voting in your stats?

Because that's their own fault.

Wanderlust is right as less than a third of the population gave an opinion to leave.

It was 52% of people, that gave an opinion, wanted to leave,  but then that is only 36% of the electorate that were allowed to give an opinion.   Also lets not forget about the scandal of the ex-pats opinions that somehow "got lost" until after the referendum, and as such could not be counted, and from those opinions it would have been "Remain" winning the opinion poll.

No one voted to remain or leave as referendum do not have any legal rights.  People, as in all referendums, only give an opinion.  Hence referendums are just large opinion polls and that's it!

Natasha Whittam wrote:

wanderlust wrote:The less than a third of the population who voted to leave were "promised" loads of different things

I seem to remember it was a 52% who voted to leave. Or are you counting the people who didn't bother voting in your stats?

Because that's their own fault.

So you're still not denying it was less than a third of the population. Or that those who voted Leave, voted on the basis of being lied to and voted for things they have subsequently been told they won't get?

A bit like...

"Would you like a shiny new red Ferrari?"
"Yes please!"
"OK - just give me your word you want it and we'll get it for you"
"So all I have to do to get the Ferrari is vote leave?"
"For sure"



"Where's my Ferrari then?"
"We never actually said you could have a Ferrari. Here's a Trabant."
"Yes you did!"
"Well tough because there is no Ferrari."
"In that case I've changed my mind you lying bastard"
"You can't - you voted leave and once you vote there's no turning back"
"But I voted for a Ferrari. The car I had was better than that effing Trabant"
"Don't be stupid - that was never going to happen. What kind of idiot would believe they'd get a Ferrari for nothing?""
"But if you change what you're selling, surely I can change my mind about buying it?"
"Not in this country pal."

Whose to say the other two thirds of the country who didn't vote wouldn't have voted for Brexit too?

I personally would not want us to leave the EU and I think it's wrong for the country not to stop and review the whole thing again because clearly now a majority of the electorate no longer wants Brexit as they've seen the effects on the economy it's had so far.

The whole damn mess is a Conservative one with Cameron holding a needless referendum in the first place in order to silence the euro-sceptics they had in their ranks, never believing for one moment the country would chose Brexit (maybe he and his cronies should have got out more and gauged the view of those that weren't lucky enough to go to Eton school and he might have thought differently about it!).

Then May compounded the position by blowing her authority away by holding a needless election and losing her majority and ever since been at the mercy of the Ulster Unionist nut cases and the euro-sceptic loons who are now in a position of power over her.

If all that wasn't bad enough that waste of space Corbyn (who should have delivered a pro-Remain vote from his Labour Party membership at the Referendum - but didn't by being almost invisible in the campaigning and obviously being a closet pro-Brexitier) who now should be actively campaigning to do something about keeping us in the EU (but isn't!) being that it is the epitome about what socialism is about in the first place, namely people joining together to make a better life for themselves and their family's.

Is it any wonder really why two thirds of the country don't vote and half of them that do are often led up the garden path?

bwfc71 wrote:It was 52% of people, that gave an opinion, wanted to leave,  but then that is only 36% of the electorate that were allowed to give an opinion.

That's one of the worst arguments I've heard yet.

Everyone who wanted to vote was allowed to. So it was as fair as it could have been.

Sour grapes.

Natasha Whittam wrote:

bwfc71 wrote:It was 52% of people, that gave an opinion, wanted to leave,  but then that is only 36% of the electorate that were allowed to give an opinion.

That's one of the worst arguments I've heard yet.

Everyone who wanted to vote was allowed to. So it was as fair as it could have been.

Sour grapes.

Except it wasn't fair as Vote Leave cheated.

And then there are all the lies they told like the £350m one.

xmiles wrote:And then there are all the lies they told like the £350m one.

We haven't left yet. Perhaps when we do we'll start giving the NHS £350m every week.

You need to be patient.

Natasha Whittam wrote: it was as fair as it could have been.

Still in denial?

It's been proven that it wasn't fair on numerous levels including the Government's own enquiry. My favourite is the admission by Director of Vote Leave Dominic Cummings who simply said "The Brexit referendum was won by lying to the public."


Phase 2: railroad something through, despite the truth gradually emerging. 
Well they would but even the Tories are now arguing amongst themselves about what that "something" is. Fact is they don't know what they want, let alone what they can actually get.

Natasha Whittam wrote:

xmiles wrote:And then there are all the lies they told like the £350m one.

We haven't left yet. Perhaps when we do we'll start giving the NHS £350m every week.

You need to be patient.

No doubt it will be delivered by flying pigs straight from the money tree.

wanderlust wrote:Still in denial?

It's been proven that it wasn't fair on numerous levels including the Government's own enquiry. My favourite is the admission by Director of Vote Leave Dominic Cummings who simply said "The Brexit referendum was won by lying to the public."


Phase 2: railroad something through, despite the truth gradually emerging. 
Well they would but even the Tories are now arguing amongst themselves about what that "something" is. Fact is they don't know what they want, let alone what they can actually get.

People had three choices. Vote to remain, vote to leave or don't vote at all. It really couldn't be simpler.

If some tall tales were told then that's not right, but if leaving the EU keeps my bananas bendy then I'm happy.

Natasha Whittam wrote:
If some tall tales were told then that's not right, but if leaving the EU keeps my bananas bendy then I'm happy.

Not all Leave voters did so for the bent bananas though.
Some wanted more expensive foreign travel and holidays, some wanted a devalued pound, some wanted the closure of marginal British businesses, some just wanted a general decline in the economy, some wanted foreign employers to take their foreign jobs back to foreigner land and some wanted to pay more for imported raw materials and receive less for finished goods exports - they were spoilt for dumb ideas I guess.

Bananas are important.