Lucy Letby - the default position was to cover up and threaten anyone who blew the whistle.

Nowt new in that. Just the way it is in the NHS. I didn't know the CEO lived in Bolton though.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12422751/Head-Lucy-Letbys-hospital-left-job-1mn-pension-went-NHS-jobs.html

He and the other senior managers who were there should be the next ones up in court.

Norpig wrote:He and the other senior managers who were there should be the next ones up in court.

They most certainly have questions to answer but don't imagine for one moment that these management practices were confined to the Countess of Chester Hospital

https://www.integrityline.com/en-gb/expertise/blog/whistleblowing-interview-peter-duffy/

The most shocking thing i've seen about this was that all 7 consultants had to write a letter of apology to Letby otherwise they would have been reported to the GMC! Her Dad insisted on it apparently 

I assume her dad believed her and was fighting for her - I guess no dad can imagine his little Princess is a baby killer?

God knows what went on it Letby's head and maybe how she was brought up by her dad might have contributed to it in some way?

Cases like this I tend not to want to know what went on, I'm repelled at how evil some people must be.

I guess the managers in the hospital had some sort of difficult position to deal with - a seemingly sharp increase in baby deaths and presumably no evidence that Letby was involved other than hearsay and circumstances.

Obviously looking back you take no chances and remove Letby from the babies even if Letby takes legal actions against them.  I imagine that maybe the managers believed it was unthinkable that a nurse was killing babies and she was innocent of such allegations?

Apparently Letby was having a fling with one of the married doctors at the time - maybe they thought the allegations were from him and the management thought all this was something to do about him saving his marriage and painting Letby in a bad light - or something?

Obviously there needs to be a proper inquiry into all of this, to protect future babies from nutjobs like Letby.

Seems the head nurse at the time has now been suspended from her current job -

Alison Kelly: Former nursing manager at Letby hospital suspended

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66569258

A “lethal mix” of failings at almost every level led to the unnecessary deaths of one mother and 11 babies in the maternity unit of a Cumbrian hospital, according to an independent report (pdf).
The investigation into deaths at Furness general hospital in Barrow between 2004 and 2013 found maternity services were beset by a culture of denial, collusion and incompetence.
Work inside the unit was found to be “seriously dysfunctional”, with poor levels of clinical competence, extremely poor working relationships, and a determination among midwives to pursue normal childbirth “at any cost”.
The midwives at Furness general were so cavalier they became known as “the musketeers”.


Consultants at the Countess of Chester Hospital were sounding the alarm just ONE YEAR after the Kirkup Report said this about the Furness General Hospital. Lessons learned? How many times have we heard that?

Interesting that Kirkup singled out the midwives but what about the management. Baby deaths at FSG weren't the only problem. Not by a long chalk.

I've not read the report but I doubt the lessons learnt did not include procedures for someone intentionally murdering the babies that they are caring for.

I doubt that ever occurred to anyone.

It will from now on hopefully and will allow staff to be moved away from babies (patients in general) without the threat of legal action being taken against the Trust by the staff concerned, which seems to been part of the issue in this case.

Sluffy wrote:I've not read the report but I doubt the lessons learnt did not include procedures for someone intentionally murdering the  babies that they are caring for.

I doubt that ever occurred to anyone.

Do you mean to say that if the concerned consultants could not prove beyond doubt that it was a case of serial killing, the hospital management were entitled to tell them to put up or shut up?

Was that the standard, the Kirkup legacy?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12430013/Theyve-opportunity-say-mistakes-Lucy-Letby-theyre-trying-justify-ignored-warnings-TV-doctor-Ravi-Jayaram-blasts-hospital-bosses-failed-stop-child-killer-murdering-babies-care.html

Ten Bobsworth wrote:

Sluffy wrote:I've not read the report but I doubt the lessons learnt did not include procedures for someone intentionally murdering the  babies that they are caring for.

I doubt that ever occurred to anyone.

Do you mean to say that if the concerned consultants could not prove beyond doubt that it was a case of serial killing, the hospital management were entitled to tell them to put up or shut up?

Was that the standard, the Kirkup legacy?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12430013/Theyve-opportunity-say-mistakes-Lucy-Letby-theyre-trying-justify-ignored-warnings-TV-doctor-Ravi-Jayaram-blasts-hospital-bosses-failed-stop-child-killer-murdering-babies-care.html

I'm not trying to be awkward here but the consultants did not prove beyond doubt that any baby had been murdered, rather they raised concerns.

As I've said cases like this repulse me so I've not delved into the detail as I normally would but I assume at the time that either no autopsies were done on the babies or they were not looking in the right places at the autopsies...

During the course of their investigation officers discovered two baby boys, from separate sets of twins, had been 'deliberately' poisoned with insulin eight months apart.

The results of their blood tests had been missed by doctors who had no idea there was a 'poisoner at work'.

It seems in was the doctors 'words' against Letby - not proof.

After raising their concerns about Letby, a group of doctors at the Countess of Chester Hospital were advised by bosses to apologise to her or face a possible referral to the General Medical Council.

Of course the doctors should have been listened to, the first concern of the management is to their patients NOT the disruption that might have followed...

Hospital executives are alleged to have doctors they would face 'blue and white tape' all over the ward if they followed their suggestion of calling police.


I don't know the protocols in hospitals but it seems to me the hospital management simply didn't believe there was a murderer killing babies in their hospital (just coincidence that the deaths occurred when Letby was around them) - I mean it is pretty hard to believe in reality isn't it (not to trivialise this but to put it in to some context, I've been telling everyone on here for over three years that Wanderlust has been lying and no one believed me about that - and that's just telling fibs on the internet not killing loads of babies!) - and there was too much 'red tape' to deal with (possibly legal action suing the Trust from Letby to face) if they called the police in and nothing untoward was found.

That dilemma needs to be removed from now on where by staff can be moved from posts and suspended and the Truss be exempted from any legal action against it in the case of nothing untoward being found.

As I say I have no idea of hospital protocols but it seems to me that there was no actions taken by the doctors/management/whoever (maybe the parents have to give permission?) to do a full autopsy on the 'suspicious' deaths as presumably the poisoning that occurred on at least two of the babies would have been found sooner?

I'm sure there will be loads of other safeguards to come out of this as well.

Goverments grant 'Independent Inquiries' when they want to limit the damage. It's all passed off as being thorough, following the evidence where it leads but in essence it's usually anything but. The Terms of Reference will determine both process and outcome.

In due course, a lessons have been learned statement will emerge, a few individuals as low down the pecking order as possible will carry the can and then it will be back to business as usual.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/aug/21/lucy-letby-murders-victims-families-and-experts-call-for-statutory-inquiry

I don't for one minute believe that the hospital management believed they had a killer nurse and was trying to protect her do you?

I suspect management believed there was some sort of agenda from the doctors against Letby (maybe scapegoating her to protect themselves from blame perhaps?) and were fearful that if they caved-in that the police inquiry would massively disrupt the running of the hospital, causing them massive logistical issues, cancelled appointments, etc, etc, and possibly even some sort of legal action from Letby to clear herself of the allegations that somehow she was at fault.

God knows why apparently the management threatened the doctors to report them to their medical body but it did shut them up.

As I've said the managements first priority is to the safety of their patients and they didn't do that, they took the risk (a reasonable one I would suggest) that they didn't have a serial nurse killer amongst the staff.

We know now that tragically they had.

Management did get it wrong and it appears that this allowed further deaths to happen.

There is a case to answer and an inquiry I suggest would establish if any of the management should face criminal charges (duty of care breaches?).

That's what I think probably might have happened and what should follow but I've not delved into the facts and I don't know how hospital management works or thinks.

I might well be wrong.

Sluffy wrote:I might well be wrong.

Natasha Whittam wrote:

Sluffy wrote:I might well be wrong.

It does happen from time to time but I try to keep it down to a minimum as much as I can!

It turns out that Tony Chambers started his career as a student nurse in Bolton in 1985. Its a familiar pathway for many, if not most, of the highly paid NHS CEO's who have the chutzpah to tell highly qualified consultants where to stick it if they don't like it.

But was he taking instructions or his lead from somewhere or someone else, one must ask?

An interesting article from Peter Hitchens in the Mail this morning. Whether you agree with him or not Hitchens is nearly always worth a read.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-12552809/peter-hitchens-lucy-letby-not-guilty.html?ico=most_shared_articles_mol.web.desktop_