First it was "Post Truth" and now this......

FFS ! Lies were told by both sides, and I genuinely believe that when they come from the Prime Minister, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and backed by the President of the United States, then they carry more weight than Boris Johnson.
When are you three going to get over it, and actually start pulling for Britain, instead of constantly complaining ? Its done, gone, let it go.

The saddest thing for me are the divisions in society that have been caused, including death threats made against some of the main protagonists. Through his fateful decision to hold a referendum, DC has created a massive rift in society that will be very slow to settle, whatever way it goes now. People will be arguing endlessly about strategies for EU negotiations and outcomes.

 To make it worse, the handling of the key issues from the outset was shameful, so that no one could be certain of the likely consequences of their voting. No wonder people are disenchanted with politicians. Lies and exaggeration at every turn.

Nearly half the population will be unhappy now, as is also the case in America, but while DC is lying low and escaping most of the flak, Trump gets Time Magazine's Man of the Year award for being even more blatantly a dissembler, and continues to make errors of judgement that may eventually prove catastrophic.

Thank God BW are cheering us up for the moment!

gloswhite wrote:FFS ! Lies were told by both sides, and I genuinely believe that when they come from the Prime Minister, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and backed by the President of the United States, then they carry more weight than Boris Johnson.
When are you three going to get over it, and actually start pulling for Britain, instead of constantly complaining ? Its done, gone, let it go.

There is a vast difference between a bare faced lie (£350m a week for the NHS) and exaggerated predictions (Project Fear). One side consistently lied and the other side made dubious predictions. There is a genuine moral difference, they are not equivalent.

Who is that babe? She definately is not a wet Wednesday afternoon.

xmiles wrote:

gloswhite wrote:FFS ! Lies were told by both sides, and I genuinely believe that when they come from the Prime Minister, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and backed by the President of the United States, then they carry more weight than Boris Johnson.
When are you three going to get over it, and actually start pulling for Britain, instead of constantly complaining ? Its done, gone, let it go.

There is a vast difference between a bare faced lie (£350m a week for the NHS) and exaggerated predictions (Project Fear). One side consistently lied and the other side made dubious predictions. There is a genuine moral difference, they are not equivalent.

Does not 'dubious predictions', especially from the people who really should know, not amount to lies? The principle is the same, telling lies to get what you want. There is so much at stake here, that it seems to be accepted by the people involved that the bigger the lie, the more we will believe it. Its not happening so much now, as I believe the politicians have finally woken up to the fact the country as a whole is far more politicized, and that we listen, and understand far more than they gave us credit for. Unfortunately, the country is suffering greatly for their stupidity and arrogance. 
Such is society nowadays, that because we all have access to IT, internet, etc, we all think we have a direct input into decision-making, (in some very limited way maybe we have), but, to me, too much intervention seems to muddy the water too much, and impedes progress. This applies to absolutely everything that needs a decision, whether its the government, local councils, and even the schools. What happened to just letting the appointed people get on with it?

okocha wrote:The saddest thing for me are the divisions in society that have been caused, including death threats made against some of the main protagonists. Through his fateful decision to hold a referendum, DC has created a massive rift in society that will be very slow to settle, whatever way it goes now. People will be arguing endlessly about strategies for EU negotiations and outcomes.

 To make it worse, the handling of the key issues from the outset was shameful, so that no one could be certain of the likely consequences of their voting. No wonder people are disenchanted with politicians. Lies and exaggeration at every turn.

Nearly half the population will be unhappy now, as is also the case in America, but while DC is lying low and escaping most of the flak, Trump gets Time Magazine's Man of the Year award for being even more blatantly a dissembler, and continues to make errors of judgement that may eventually prove catastrophic.

Thank God BW are cheering us up for the moment!

Agree with you Okocha, but there were already big divisions in the country, and thats, why the referendum went the way it did. I also believe it will take a long time for this situation to resolve, but whilst we argue among ourselves, the pain will be prolonged for all.
I honestly thought the Times awarding Trump the Man of the year award was a piss take, as the nominations were him, Farage, and Putin, but when I saw on the TV that they were taking it seriously, I couldn't help but wonder where society was going. Its as stupid as giving Obama the Nobel prize when he hadn't done anything.
As you say, at least we have the Super Whites to keep us going. 

Regarding this convenient "voting for change" excuse that keeps getting bandied about, (not having a pop at you, Glos) why does said change appear to involve a massive shift to the right politically?

UKIP are based firmly on the extreme right of British politics and Trump got elected by shouting that Mexicans are all rapist, drug dealers and every Muslim on the planet wants to destroy America.

The far right parties in France, Italy and Austria all appear to be gaining ground rapidly, so presumably "stranger danger" is a key motivating factor in all this.

If this is about disenfranchised groups simply wanting to change a system which (they erroneously believe) puts them at a disadvantage, why are they all so excited at the prospect of electing another one of the One Percenters (ie more of what's got them in this mess) and why are they so enthusiastically lapping up his race hate nonsense?

Why haven't they all risen up and joined the centre left parties which are far better placed to bring about the type of change they (allegedly) desire?

Could it be that all that's just a bullshit excuse and deep down, poorly educated people are simply inherently racist and aren't bright enough to see or care about the big picture?

And this makes them ripe for exploitation by power hungry nutters like Trump and Farage who are only in this for what they can get out of it and fuck all else, with absolutely no regard for the consequences?

And that's why I'm not buying all this "vote for change" bollocks.

The Leave result and Trump's election to The White House are all about stupid racists being fed a pack of lies by opportunist wankers and fuck all else.

Every racist redneck in America now feels validated and empowered as a direct result of Trump's campaign strategy.

And to make matters even more interesting, it appears that you can now just stand on a soap box and make up outrageous lies without a single shred of evidence to back them up and that's fine.

Is that a society that we really want to live in?

gloswhite wrote:

xmiles wrote:

gloswhite wrote:FFS ! Lies were told by both sides, and I genuinely believe that when they come from the Prime Minister, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and backed by the President of the United States, then they carry more weight than Boris Johnson.
When are you three going to get over it, and actually start pulling for Britain, instead of constantly complaining ? Its done, gone, let it go.

There is a vast difference between a bare faced lie (£350m a week for the NHS) and exaggerated predictions (Project Fear). One side consistently lied and the other side made dubious predictions. There is a genuine moral difference, they are not equivalent.

Does not 'dubious predictions', especially from the people who really should know, not amount to lies? The principle is the same, telling lies to get what you want. There is so much at stake here, that it seems to be accepted by the people involved that the bigger the lie, the more we will believe it. Its not happening so much now, as I believe the politicians have finally woken up to the fact the country as a whole is far more politicized, and that we listen, and understand far more than they gave us credit for. Unfortunately, the country is suffering greatly for their stupidity and arrogance. 
Such is society nowadays, that because we all have access to IT, internet, etc, we all think we have a direct input into decision-making, (in some very limited way maybe we have), but, to me, too much intervention seems to muddy the water too much, and impedes progress. This applies to absolutely everything that needs a decision, whether its the government, local councils, and even the schools. What happened to just letting the appointed people get on with it?

No, dubious predictions are not the same as direct lies. Making dubious predictions even in bad faith remain predictions. Nobody can tell whether or not they will come true. If they are made in bad faith that is dishonest and you can certainly argue that may have been the case with Project Fear although Cameron and co might have genuinely believed these predictions.

However going on record as stating that you will do something such as spending £350m a week on the NHS if we leave the EU is different. This is people like Farage and Boris deliberately lying and having no intention of honouring their pledge. They knew they were lying all along and that is what makes it morally different.

I am also mystified by your statement that "we listen, and understand far more than they gave us credit for" when large numbers of people have voted to make things worse for themselves as a protest against what they see as the establishment.

xmiles wrote:when large numbers of people have voted to make things worse for themselves.

It statements like this from the Remain camp that anger me.

Firstly xmiles, please tell me how voting to leave the EU has made things worse for me. I don't mean a general sweeping statement, I mean for me personally.

Secondly, leaving the EU is a long term strategy, I firmly believe that in 20 years time the UK will be far stronger because of it. Unless you have a time machine please tell me how you know I am wrong.

I was agreeing with you until I got to the 
Could it be that all that's just a bullshit excuse and deep down, poorly educated people are simply inherently racist and aren't bright enough to see or care about the big picture?
I genuinely think you aren't giving credit to an awful lot of people, who can see what is happening to their way of life, how it is being affected, and more importantly, how it will affect future generations. 
When there is a shift of millions from one area of the world to another, then the impact has to be addressed. The West were completely unprepared for it, and the politicians, as in Germany, were merely thinking of the financial benefits, (they were going to fall short of workers, apparently). Its taken the reaction of the public in all of these countries, not just the UK, to flag up their concerns about how things are going wrong. In this country, because of Blair and his government, (rise of the PC police, open door policy, and labeling all comments and questions racist), we were afraid to have a full and honest debate about the countries problems regarding immigration, and the voice of the people was muted, deliberately. This frustration is now being shown, by all classes of the public, and as you say, the reaction isn't always very nice. Although I voted out mainly for the sovereignty argument, I also believe that immigration should be talked about, and resolved as soon as possible. Although some of the language isn't good, the problem is far worse, especially when you consider that the Labour plan for integration for immigrant communities with the local communities was an absolute disaster, with many native born people seeing their own way of life being subsumed into something that didn't exist just a few years ago, and which is very different to what is considered the British way of life. Britain has always taken in refugees, immigrants, etc., but the current rate of flow is too much, and is affecting everyone, and distorting the country's infrastructure. Calling people racist just because they want some planning, and reassurance, isn't the right approach as far as I am concerned, and actually compounds the problem.

Natasha Whittam wrote:

xmiles wrote:when large numbers of people have voted to make things worse for themselves.

It statements like this from the Remain camp that anger me.

Firstly xmiles, please tell me how voting to leave the EU has made things worse for me. I don't mean a general sweeping statement, I mean for me personally.

He didn't mention you though, did he?

He said "large numbers of people", so unless you're one of the racist scrotes who left school at 16 with no qualifications and who now hate Polish people for making you look bad with their protestant work ethic and can-do attitude, as you sit on your settee all day, watching Kyle and eating Pot Noodles paid for with your JSA, that I keep referring to.....

....his point stands.

And I agree with him.

I get what you're saying, Glos, honestly, I do but, again, I can only comment from my own experience.

And I know personally, many people who voted Leave because they "don't like pakkies because they're all paedos" and will openly admit this now with a smile on their face.

And that has got sod all to do with the economy.

But they now feel emboldened by the result and are feeling more confident that when Article 50 does finally get triggered, we will somehow magically return to a time and place where white English people suddenly all get richer overnight and all the brown faces will disappear.

It's dangerous bullshit and that's my main problem with it all because what's going to happen when it doesn't pan out that way?

I like the Poles. They helped us out during the war, and as you say, they are good workers. Its a shame that a lot of our own workers had to take a dive in wages when the market was flooded with all the cheaper, but still skilled, workers.

Bread2.0 wrote:I get what you're saying, Glos, honestly, I do but, again, I can only comment from my own experience.

And I know personally, many people who voted Leave because they "don't like pakkies because they're all paedos" and will openly admit this now with a smile on their face.

And that has got sod all to do with the economy.

But they now feel emboldened by the result and are feeling more confident that when Article 50 does finally get triggered, we will somehow magically return to a time and place where white English people suddenly all get richer overnight and all the brown faces will disappear.

It's dangerous bullshit and that's my main problem with it all because what's going to happen when it doesn't pan out that way?

I can see what you say, and I hope we'll never get to that, but, as in the past, we will change attitudes, albeit slowly. I believe a lot of people will become less racist, and yes, I accept many people here are, (both white and non-white), when they are able to pay their own way in the world. 
Its as much, if not more, a financial problem, than race. The ethnic community, at least initially, are prepared to take a lower wage, and will require state support whilst they are establishing themselves. When they arrive in such numbers, the effect can be devastating to some communities. We have accepted the West Indians, and then the Asians from Idi Amin's days. The Chinese, Greeks, and Australians have all been integrated. Given time this will be resolved, although not in our lifetimes.

With regards to you hearing comments form those people you know, I have also heard them, from what would normally be considered sane, intelligent people. To me its an indication of how badly wrong things are going.
However, in your case, I can only say: 'you have to get out more' 

I recently sold a load of house furniture to someone in Leicester and when the Courier company arrived, they were two Polish guys. I honestly couldn't fault them. they had straps and sheeting and loaded everything very professionally. They were that good that I would use them again.

I have said it before and I'll say it again. The integration of all sections of our society can only be achieved by the will of the people and not by statute.

xmiles wrote:

gloswhite wrote:

xmiles wrote:

gloswhite wrote:FFS ! Lies were told by both sides, and I genuinely believe that when they come from the Prime Minister, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and backed by the President of the United States, then they carry more weight than Boris Johnson.
When are you three going to get over it, and actually start pulling for Britain, instead of constantly complaining ? Its done, gone, let it go.

There is a vast difference between a bare faced lie (£350m a week for the NHS) and exaggerated predictions (Project Fear). One side consistently lied and the other side made dubious predictions. There is a genuine moral difference, they are not equivalent.

Does not 'dubious predictions', especially from the people who really should know, not amount to lies? The principle is the same, telling lies to get what you want. There is so much at stake here, that it seems to be accepted by the people involved that the bigger the lie, the more we will believe it. Its not happening so much now, as I believe the politicians have finally woken up to the fact the country as a whole is far more politicized, and that we listen, and understand far more than they gave us credit for. Unfortunately, the country is suffering greatly for their stupidity and arrogance. 
Such is society nowadays, that because we all have access to IT, internet, etc, we all think we have a direct input into decision-making, (in some very limited way maybe we have), but, to me, too much intervention seems to muddy the water too much, and impedes progress. This applies to absolutely everything that needs a decision, whether its the government, local councils, and even the schools. What happened to just letting the appointed people get on with it?

No, dubious predictions are not the same as direct lies. Making dubious predictions even in bad faith remain predictions. Nobody can tell whether or not they will come true. If they are made in bad faith that is dishonest and you can certainly argue that may have been the case with Project Fear although Cameron and co might have genuinely believed these predictions.

However going on record as stating that you will do something such as spending £350m a week on the NHS if we leave the EU is different. This is people like Farage and Boris deliberately lying and having no intention of honouring their pledge. They knew they were lying all along and that is what makes it morally different.

I am also mystified by your statement that "we listen, and understand far more than they gave us credit for" when large numbers of people have voted to make things worse for themselves as a protest against what they see as the establishment.

Something I always wondered at, was how people believed the bus statement, when even if we came out, the people making the statement would never be in a position to keep that 'promise'. Its not as though the government would change, so how were they expected to manage it ? There was no commitment from the Chancellor, or other relevant post holders. I always looked on that particular figure as highlighting one of the  financial costs of the EU, and not as a hard and fast policy change.
Regards the lies, I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this particular example. 

gloswhite wrote:
When are you three going to get over it, and actually start pulling for Britain?

Honestly Glos, voting to leave the EU was the most anti-British act I can think of. I genuinely believe that and my opinion was reinforced by the post referendum polls which gave an indication of the real reasons Leave voters did what they did.

If being British involves taking full advantage of people from around the world and then stabbing them in the back when times are tough those are not the values I signed up for.

Bread2.0 wrote:
He didn't mention you though, did he?

He said "large numbers of people", so unless you're one of the racist scrotes who left school at 16 with no qualifications and who now hate Polish people for making you look bad with their protestant work ethic and can-do attitude, as you sit on your settee all day, watching Kyle and eating Pot Noodles paid for with your JSA, that I keep referring to.....

....his point stands.

And I agree with him.

The point, as you well know, is he doesn't know even 0.001% of the people who voted to leave so how can he, or anyone, make such statements.

Have to admit Wander, I genuinely cannot see that aspect, (if I understand you correctly). Maybe a few years ago, but I think the time has come when we need to be rather more protective of our own future. Yes, we took for many years, but there again, we have also given a great deal, and not just financially. 
If I've got it wrong, it would be interesting to hear what you mean.