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301 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Nov 10 2017, 09:38

gloswhite

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Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
T.R.O.Y wrote:
gloswhite wrote:
T.R.O.Y wrote:It’s telling that Leavers on this thread have given up on making serious comments.
Its nothing to do do with leavers, or remainers, anymore.
There was a lot of nasty comments and bad feeling after the referendum, with tempers running high. Add to that the Trump election, and one or two on here got completely out of hand, sometimes forgetting that this forum  consists of football fans with a view, not racists, idiots, and all sorts in between. In honesty, we were all involved to some degree. The vehemence, and abuse, shown by some was unreasonable, and, from my point of view, the hard core of remainers were so adamant that nothing good could come out of any aspect of the referendum, meant that it was similar to pissing in the wind when trying to say anything even slightly, for leaving. Unfortunately, I feel we are all still walking on eggshells to some degree, with the Brexit thread).
Having said that, we have all got past that stage, and even manage to have the odd civil discussion about the state of the talks, etc. The forum has now returned to where it was before the civil war, and I have to wonder why you even raised the point, to be honest.

My point was that given everything we've seen since I'm not sure many Leavers are capable of having a serious debate about this anymore. 

If we look at the claims and promises that were made during the referendum campaigns, almost everything has been shown to be incorrect or in the case of promises reneged on. 

For instance: 

1. EU keen to do a trade deal - German car manufacturers want to sell cars, France winerys sell champagne.

https://www.politico.eu/article/german-industry-to-uk-we-wont-undermine-single-market-over-brexit/

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-germany-business-warns-theresa-may-protect-single-market-trade-deal-uk-a7831401.html

2. UK workers will do the jobs of cheap EU labour 
https://www.ft.com/content/13e183ee-c099-11e7-b8a3-38a6e068f464

3. NHS weekly money (you don't need a link for this)

Nothing to do with civil discussions or vehemence and abuse, it's just a comment on the topic of the thread and how Brexit seems to be developing.
My response to your original comment was to point out that things got very heated on here, even very nasty. The forum suffered for it, and even now many prefer to just read the comments, without replying, because of the adverse, almost fanatical, reaction they will get. 
There are 3 very ardent supporters of remain on here, who are unable to grasp the fact that we are leaving the EU, regardless of what has been said, (by either side), and their responses can still be very blinkered, (in my view). An example would be the comment above by Xmiles, where he states that another 'liar' has been appointed to the cabinet. On what basis does he say that? Merely that she supports Brexit. Now you have joined in with links to whatever shows Brexit in a bad light. I accept things are nowhere near what was expected, or promised by a few, but its something we have to face and fix, not whinge about all the time. 
Its a pity that many prefer to criticise only the UK, when it is obvious that the EU is as at least as culpable, focusing only on the 'divorce' money, (although if they don't get a pile of it, their Common Agricultural Policy may well collapse, apparently). 
One way or another, all this turmoil will end, so wouldn't it be wiser to prepare for the outcomes, and not carp on about how we got there?

302 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Nov 10 2017, 09:48

BoltonTillIDie

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John McGinlay
John McGinlay
We will formally commit to Brexit at 23:00 GMT on Friday 29 March 2019.

303 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Nov 10 2017, 10:42

xmiles

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
Glos if you had taken the trouble to read the link I posted you would see the details of Mordaunt's bare faced lie. Turkey was not about to join the EU and even if it were about to happen we had the power of veto. She knew this and chose to lie about it or alternatively she is an idiot who is so ignorant about the reality of the situation she should have kept quiet about it. So liar or idiot, you choose which one this brexit fan is.

304 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Nov 10 2017, 11:54

wanderlust

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
gloswhite wrote:
T.R.O.Y wrote:
gloswhite wrote:
T.R.O.Y wrote:It’s telling that Leavers on this thread have given up on making serious comments.
Its nothing to do do with leavers, or remainers, anymore.
There was a lot of nasty comments and bad feeling after the referendum, with tempers running high. Add to that the Trump election, and one or two on here got completely out of hand, sometimes forgetting that this forum  consists of football fans with a view, not racists, idiots, and all sorts in between. In honesty, we were all involved to some degree. The vehemence, and abuse, shown by some was unreasonable, and, from my point of view, the hard core of remainers were so adamant that nothing good could come out of any aspect of the referendum, meant that it was similar to pissing in the wind when trying to say anything even slightly, for leaving. Unfortunately, I feel we are all still walking on eggshells to some degree, with the Brexit thread).
Having said that, we have all got past that stage, and even manage to have the odd civil discussion about the state of the talks, etc. The forum has now returned to where it was before the civil war, and I have to wonder why you even raised the point, to be honest.

My point was that given everything we've seen since I'm not sure many Leavers are capable of having a serious debate about this anymore. 

If we look at the claims and promises that were made during the referendum campaigns, almost everything has been shown to be incorrect or in the case of promises reneged on. 

For instance: 

1. EU keen to do a trade deal - German car manufacturers want to sell cars, France winerys sell champagne.

https://www.politico.eu/article/german-industry-to-uk-we-wont-undermine-single-market-over-brexit/

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-germany-business-warns-theresa-may-protect-single-market-trade-deal-uk-a7831401.html

2. UK workers will do the jobs of cheap EU labour 
https://www.ft.com/content/13e183ee-c099-11e7-b8a3-38a6e068f464

3. NHS weekly money (you don't need a link for this)

Nothing to do with civil discussions or vehemence and abuse, it's just a comment on the topic of the thread and how Brexit seems to be developing.
My response to your original comment was to point out that things got very heated on here, even very nasty. The forum suffered for it, and even now many prefer to just read the comments, without replying, because of the adverse, almost fanatical, reaction they will get. 
There are 3 very ardent supporters of remain on here, who are unable to grasp the fact that we are leaving the EU, regardless of what has been said, (by either side), and their responses can still be very blinkered, (in my view). An example would be the comment above by Xmiles, where he states that another 'liar' has been appointed to the cabinet. On what basis does he say that? Merely that she supports Brexit. Now you have joined in with links to whatever shows Brexit in a bad light. I accept things are nowhere near what was expected, or promised by a few, but its something we have to face and fix, not whinge about all the time. 
Its a pity that many prefer to criticise only the UK, when it is obvious that the EU is as at least as culpable, focusing only on the 'divorce' money, (although if they don't get a pile of it, their Common Agricultural Policy may well collapse, apparently). 
One way or another, all this turmoil will end, so wouldn't it be wiser to prepare for the outcomes, and not carp on about how we got there?
Hope you take this in the spirit of discussion in which it is intended but what makes you think that Remainers "are unable to grasp the fact that we are leaving the EU"?
I think it would be more accurate to say that we accept the decision, but think that a) it's a really bad one that will seriously damage the UK b) that it was obtained by gross deception  c) that the Leave campaign was at least in part funded by people who either have a vested interest in disrupting the UK economy or are in a position not to be affected by a decline in the economy d) that the truth will come out in the fullness of time e) that May, Davies etc are ignoring the facts and pursuing Brexit to further/maintain their personal political careers rather than the belief that the UK will be stronger for it and f) those who voted to leave will not get the outcomes they expect and will be worse off than they were before the referendum.

When Remainers flag up the backsliding, negotiation failure, U turns and broken promises, I appreciate that it must be hard for Leavers to swallow but unfortunately that's the reality of what is happening. 

Brexit is a fact of life, but as long as May and Davies continue to stumble from one crisis to another, there is always a scintilla of hope that they will see sense before it is too late although I suspect May is daft enough to carry on regardless to try and make a name for herself as the woman who delivered what we voted for - even if it's not what was promised. 

Leavers have made a big deal about the economic crisis not being as bad as the much-derided experts predicted but that's because of the very same reasons that none of the referendum promises have been delivered i.e. all that is still ahead of us. That's why Remainers have an obligation to continue to monitor the situation. We can't let our Government get away with sweeping the lies under the carpet.

305 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Nov 10 2017, 14:19

gloswhite

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Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
xmiles wrote:Glos if you had taken the trouble to read the link I posted you would see the details of Mordaunt's bare faced lie. Turkey was not about to join the EU and even if it were about to happen we had the power of veto. She knew this and chose to lie about it or alternatively she is an idiot who is so ignorant about the reality of the situation she should have kept quiet about it. So liar or idiot, you choose which one this brexit fan is.
Sorry XM. I tend not to read the links any more. They're all very much in the same vein, which I believe is often too one-sided to even acknowledge. (nothing personal though  Smile )

306 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Nov 10 2017, 14:26

xmiles

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
gloswhite wrote:
xmiles wrote:Glos if you had taken the trouble to read the link I posted you would see the details of Mordaunt's bare faced lie. Turkey was not about to join the EU and even if it were about to happen we had the power of veto. She knew this and chose to lie about it or alternatively she is an idiot who is so ignorant about the reality of the situation she should have kept quiet about it. So liar or idiot, you choose which one this brexit fan is.
Sorry XM. I tend not to read the links any more. They're all very much in the same vein, which I believe is often too one-sided to even acknowledge. (nothing personal though  Smile )

OK. However I do try to only quote what most people would consider unbiased sources like the BBC.

307 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Nov 10 2017, 14:57

gloswhite

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Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
what makes you think that Remainers "are unable to grasp the fact that we are leaving the EU"? 
Because you are always highlighting things that cannot change things, no matter how many times you raise them.
I think it would be more accurate to say that we accept the decision, but think that 
a) it's a really bad one that will seriously damage the UK - got that, many times
b) that it was obtained by gross deception. - Some truth in that, but that goes for both sides. The same argument could have been used by the leavers, had we remained.
c) that the Leave campaign was at least in part funded by people who either have a vested interest in disrupting the UK economy or are in a position not to be affected by a decline in the economy - Unfortunately, there are such people about, but I would be surprised if there weren't financial predators on both sides of the argument. The problem for many is they invested in us remaining, and lost as a result.  I believe the majority of remain voters were slightly better off, and didn't want the status quo changed.
d) that the truth will come out in the fullness of time - agreed, but it wont be for many years, and I'm sure we will see many unsavoury , selfish, and greedy actions and tactics, from all sides. (lets not forget were talking about politicians).
e) that May, Davies etc are ignoring the facts and pursuing Brexit to further/maintain their personal political careers rather than the belief that the UK will be stronger for it - We all know May is a spent force, and is only staying in to prevent an election. If she pulls any credence back after the recent debacle, she'll have performed a minor miracle. Agree about Davies looking to his future, but surely that will be governed by him gaining a good result? At the end of the day, regardless of the arguments since, the country voted in favour of leaving.
f) those who voted to leave will not get the outcomes they expect and will be worse off than they were before the referendum. - that will happen for some, although I'm sure we are all becoming more realistic as to what is involved, and for some, what was wanted, right from the start. All the jingoism, promises, and threats, are all boiling down to the hard facts, that it will be difficult, painful, and will not provide Nirvana within the next couple of years.



However, I genuinely believe that our future is best left in our own hands, and rather than take a rather myopic view of just the next 5 years of so, in which we will suffer, (but not necessarily as much as many doom and gloom merchants would have us believe), I think our future, or more precisely, our children and grandchildren's futures will be more secure. Trading with the world, of which the EU is just another market, managing our own politics without interference, making and adjusting our own laws, managing the comings and goings of migrants, and our own people, can only be for the better. I'm not sure how long into the future we need to look for a settled way of life, but I am aware that the leaving of the EU is the beginning of this, and if we had stayed, the rest of the world would have overtaken the United States of Europe in most, if not all, areas. The EU more often than not, spends more time looking inward, promoting itself at any cost, is unable to change, and is fast becoming a federal partnership, with no true government. I don't believe this is the right way to go.


Bit long, apologies

308 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Nov 10 2017, 14:58

gloswhite

avatar
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
xmiles wrote:
gloswhite wrote:
xmiles wrote:Glos if you had taken the trouble to read the link I posted you would see the details of Mordaunt's bare faced lie. Turkey was not about to join the EU and even if it were about to happen we had the power of veto. She knew this and chose to lie about it or alternatively she is an idiot who is so ignorant about the reality of the situation she should have kept quiet about it. So liar or idiot, you choose which one this brexit fan is.
Sorry XM. I tend not to read the links any more. They're all very much in the same vein, which I believe is often too one-sided to even acknowledge. (nothing personal though  Smile )

OK. However I do try to only quote what most people would consider unbiased sources like the BBC.
I accept that, but I haven't seen any links from you that show a positive spin. (Don't even consider telling me there aren't any  Very Happy )

309 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Nov 10 2017, 15:35

Bread2.0

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Andy Walker
Andy Walker
It's half time (505 days since the referendum, 505 days til we leave) and Lord Kerr (the bloke who wrote A50) offers some food for thought:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-theresa-may-article-50-reversal-misleading-public-author-lord-kerr-claims-a8046676.html

And please don't anyone shout "But both sides told fibs!" because all that matters right here, right now is that the only one lying is May when she insists that we must continue down this disastrous path.

We must stop this bollocks before it's too late.

310 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Nov 10 2017, 15:58

Norpig

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John McGinlay
John McGinlay
I agree breaders but can you imagine the uproar if the Government did pull out now? The brexiteers will be wanting public hangings and floggings if it happened as the people have spoken (their words not mine) and it must be carried out to its bitter end.

311 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Nov 10 2017, 16:10

Bread2.0

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Andy Walker
Andy Walker
The way to get round that one is to hold a second referendum.

We're half way through and we've made zero progress. 

The other 27 countries are laughing at us, the government is fighting tooth and claw to avoid having to release the findings of the impact studies (so what does that tell you?) and even the guy who wrote A50 thinks it's a bad idea.

So, it would be perfectly reasonable for those with the power to do so to say "Listen, guys.....it's time for some honesty. We're struggling here. It's looking as though we can't deliver the seamless exit from the EU that you voted for, so before we go any further, here's your chance to have your say on whether or not we proceed."

Hold a second referendum, let the people express their collective will again (because remember, that appears to be the only justification for doing this in the first place - "It's the will of the people" and all that bollocks.....and then scrap the entire mess when the result comes back 75/25 in favour of staying in.

That would be the sensible thing to do but when has sense played any part in this....?

312 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Nov 10 2017, 16:10

xmiles

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
The people spoke in 1975 when 67% of us voted to remain in the EU.

313 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Nov 10 2017, 16:15

Cajunboy

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Tony Kelly
Tony Kelly
xmiles wrote:The people spoke in 1975 when 67% of us voted to remain in the EU

315 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Nov 10 2017, 16:57

Bread2.0

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Andy Walker
Andy Walker
Serious question for leave advocates:

(And please ignore the sexist undertone, I'm phrasing it this way because we're predominantly heterosexual males on here.)

If you're wife spotted a car for sale on a garage forecourt and decided she wanted it, would the fact that she said "I want it" mean that you had to go ahead and buy it, even if, when you inspected it closely, you discovered that the salesman was obviously lying to you when he said it was a great car because you'd spotted that it only had 3 wheels and the engine was knackered?

Would her initially having said "Yes, I want this!" despite the fact that the independent RAC report you'd commissioned indicating that it was a pile of junk mean that you went ahead and handed your cash over anyway?

Simply because she'd made an ill-informed, snap judgement based on first impressions which subsequently were proven to be inaccurate?

Would you....?

Eh....?

Would you........?

316 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Nov 10 2017, 17:01

Bread2.0

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Andy Walker
Andy Walker

317 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Nov 10 2017, 17:11

wanderlust

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
gloswhite wrote:what makes you think that Remainers "are unable to grasp the fact that we are leaving the EU"? 
Because you are always highlighting things that cannot change things, no matter how many times you raise them.

All things can change if and when the people have had enough.

Won't question who was involved in the financing but I do know that the Remainers had poor campaign and I suspect it's because they never imagined a Leave vote was possible.

But I do question this:

However, I genuinely believe that our future is best left in our own hands,


..on the grounds that it will never "be in our own hands". We are an integral part of a global economy, highly dependent on foreign trade and workforce especially since our own industrial base was decimated in the '70s. We bet everything on our partnership with Europe and international trade in general and have long since sold off our natural resources and key assets. And it takes two to tango so we will never be completely in control of our own destiny but rather - as Davies is finding out - what deals we can persuade other countries to agree with. Unfortunately, having put ourselves in a position where we need to import almost everything we consume and where we increasingly work for foreign companies who have invested in the UK we are desperate and have nothing much left to bargain with so to a large extent we are and will continue to be controlled by the wishes of foreigners. They own most of our remaining industry, and control our energy needs, our food needs - even our transport infrastructure and will continue to do so. One thing they don't fully control is our agriculture but that has been propped up by the EU for the last 40 years.
We need the EU. It has faults as some sections of the media love to remind us - but it's no worse than our Government and our politics.






318 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Nov 10 2017, 17:14

Reebok Trotter

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse


Read paragraph 7. Again.  It states, " The European Court of Human Rights had ordered that he stay in Britain despite the Governments attempts to deport him."

It's shit like this where we cannot get rid of low life scum and send them back from whence they came that pisses people off.

319 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Nov 10 2017, 17:35

karlypants

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Bread2.0 wrote:Serious question for leave advocates:

(And please ignore the sexist undertone, I'm phrasing it this way because we're predominantly heterosexual males on here.)

If you're wife spotted a car for sale on a garage forecourt and decided she wanted it, would the fact that she said "I want it" mean that you had to go ahead and buy it, even if, when you inspected it closely, you discovered that the salesman was obviously lying to you when he said it was a great car because you'd spotted that it only had 3 wheels and the engine was knackered?

Would her initially having said "Yes, I want this!" despite the fact that the independent RAC report you'd commissioned indicating that it was a pile of junk mean that you went ahead and handed your cash over anyway?

Simply because she'd made an ill-informed, snap judgement based on first impressions which subsequently were proven to be inaccurate?

Would you....?

Eh....?

Would you........?
No but I would then say to her that we would go and look at a few other second hand cars of the same make and model. :biggrin:

320 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Nov 10 2017, 17:35

gloswhite

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Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
I would say Wander, that viewing all the faults you list, undergone by this country, then I would ask, who got us here? Bearing in mind that it all happened within the last 40 years? Did we manage it all by ourselves, or did we work within an EU framework? Admittedly, we can't account for stupid politicians. (Has anyone heard of a 5 year plan recently ?)
I'm not blaming the EU for our ills, however, all they've been providing is more rules, whilst taking lots of our money. As for the farmers relying on the CAP, as I said earlier, without UK money, the EU are concerned that it will collapse, with the French having the most to lose.
Just as an aside, is the UK not investing overseas as well ?

321 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Nov 10 2017, 17:57

boltonbonce

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Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Bread2.0 wrote:Serious question for leave advocates:

(And please ignore the sexist undertone, I'm phrasing it this way because we're predominantly heterosexual males on here.)

If you're wife spotted a car for sale on a garage forecourt and decided she wanted it, would the fact that she said "I want it" mean that you had to go ahead and buy it, even if, when you inspected it closely, you discovered that the salesman was obviously lying to you when he said it was a great car because you'd spotted that it only had 3 wheels and the engine was knackered?

Would her initially having said "Yes, I want this!" despite the fact that the independent RAC report you'd commissioned indicating that it was a pile of junk mean that you went ahead and handed your cash over anyway?

Simply because she'd made an ill-informed, snap judgement based on first impressions which subsequently were proven to be inaccurate?

Would you....?

Eh....?

Would you........?
We've bought it anyway. Oh dear. 

322 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Nov 10 2017, 19:50

gloswhite

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Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
Bread2.0 wrote:Serious question for leave advocates:

(And please ignore the sexist undertone, I'm phrasing it this way because we're predominantly heterosexual males on here.)

If you're wife spotted a car for sale on a garage forecourt and decided she wanted it, would the fact that she said "I want it" mean that you had to go ahead and buy it, even if, when you inspected it closely, you discovered that the salesman was obviously lying to you when he said it was a great car because you'd spotted that it only had 3 wheels and the engine was knackered?

Would her initially having said "Yes, I want this!" despite the fact that the independent RAC report you'd commissioned indicating that it was a pile of junk mean that you went ahead and handed your cash over anyway?

Simply because she'd made an ill-informed, snap judgement based on first impressions which subsequently were proven to be inaccurate?

Would you....?

Eh....?

Would you........?
Lets be honest, we've all actually done this, although to a lesser degree, but more important, we've always compromised. 

A poor analogy breaders, every bloke gives in if the missus puts her foot down, eve if it doesn't always make for an easier life. Very Happy

323 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Nov 10 2017, 20:16

gloswhite

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Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
I find the ultimatum given to the UK for the payment of the divorce bill rather confusing. We said, in Florence, that we will honour all our commitments, yet we are being forced to come up with a figure, or an open cheque, within 2 weeks. We have asked for a list of what we have committed to, and for how much, although this has been ignored.

324 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Nov 10 2017, 22:56

xmiles

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
Reebok Trotter wrote:


Read paragraph 7. Again.  It states, " The European Court of Human Rights had ordered that he stay in Britain despite the Governments attempts to deport him."

It's shit like this where we cannot get rid of low life scum and send them back from whence they came that pisses people off.

The European Court of Human Rights is nothing to do with the EU. It is a completely separate matter. Here is a link that explains it (although it is no surprise that the Daily Mail and brexit fans are incapable of appreciating this simple fact):
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiiqtvdjLXXAhUM2hoKHVeWBg0QFgg6MAI&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FEuropean_Court_of_Human_Rights&usg=AOvVaw2SOj3x3QP_Zg5oy1KyvIT7

325 Re: Brexit negotiations on Sat Nov 11 2017, 16:30

gloswhite

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Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
(although it is no surprise that the Daily Mail and brexit fans are incapable of appreciating this simple fact):


XM, is this really necessary ? (I bet you still get upset with the big red bus and the £350M  Very Happy) No, my comment is necessary either, but I get tired of indiscriminate sniping of those who voted out.

326 Re: Brexit negotiations on Sun Nov 12 2017, 11:52

T.R.O.Y


David Ngog
David Ngog
Glos, in response to your reply at the top of this page. I’m not interested in whatever abuse apparently occurred on here, my comment is purely about the topic itself and my points are valid. 

I don’t buy this idea we should all shut up and focus on getting a good deal, id like to see the promises of the leavers honoured rather than brushed under the carpet and when they are proved false they should be held to account rather than brushed under the carpet as otherwise politicians will continue to lie to get into power rendering what they say entirely pointless.

You mentioned Xmiles post in your comment, but had you checked the link? She’d made entirely false claims about Turkey during the referendum to stoke up fear, and it was spurious claims like this and the ones I listed which helped swing the vote.

327 Re: Brexit negotiations on Sun Nov 12 2017, 14:49

wanderlust

avatar
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
gloswhite wrote:I find the ultimatum given to the UK for the payment of the divorce bill rather confusing. We said, in Florence, that we will honour all our commitments, yet we are being forced to come up with a figure, or an open cheque, within 2 weeks. We have asked for a list of what we have committed to, and for how much, although this has been ignored.
I find it confusing too because we already know the commitments we have made and it adds up to about 10% of our national expenditure for one year, at least £90 billion. The Government entered into these agreements so if they genuinely don't know what the exact figure they have agreed to commit, the Government is even more incompetent than we thought. 
I have three main problems with this scenario:
1) That the Remain campaign didn't point out to the British public at the time of the referendum that the immediate cost of leaving makes the paltry £350 million figure quoted by the Leave campaign peanuts in the scheme of things. 
2) That we subsequently voted to not get the benefit of the development programmes we have invested so heavily in - which means that we will have to pay even more to create our own programmes to replace them, effectively paying twice for them pushing the cost of Brexit up even higher which will inevitably lead to cutbacks across the board.
3) That the Government continues to hide the truth from the British public in order to ride what's left of their wave of political popularity.

All this leads me to the conclusion that at some point in the future when the economy is f*****, defence/health/care etc services are cut and jobs disappear, the Tories will turn round and say we may be a lot worse off, but this is what you wanted and we delivered it.

328 Re: Brexit negotiations on Sun Nov 12 2017, 15:32

gloswhite

avatar
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
wanderlust wrote:
gloswhite wrote:I find the ultimatum given to the UK for the payment of the divorce bill rather confusing. We said, in Florence, that we will honour all our commitments, yet we are being forced to come up with a figure, or an open cheque, within 2 weeks. We have asked for a list of what we have committed to, and for how much, although this has been ignored.
I find it confusing too because we already know the commitments we have made and it adds up to about 10% of our national expenditure for one year, at least £90 billion. The Government entered into these agreements so if they genuinely don't know what the exact figure they have agreed to commit, the Government is even more incompetent than we thought. 
I have three main problems with this scenario:
1) That the Remain campaign didn't point out to the British public at the time of the referendum that the immediate cost of leaving makes the paltry £350 million figure quoted by the Leave campaign peanuts in the scheme of things. 
2) That we subsequently voted to not get the benefit of the development programmes we have invested so heavily in - which means that we will have to pay even more to create our own programmes to replace them, effectively paying twice for them pushing the cost of Brexit up even higher which will inevitably lead to cutbacks across the board.
3) That the Government continues to hide the truth from the British public in order to ride what's left of their wave of political popularity.

All this leads me to the conclusion that at some point in the future when the economy is f*****, defence/health/care etc services are cut and jobs disappear, the Tories will turn round and say we may be a lot worse off, but this is what you wanted and we delivered it.
Might be wrong, but is one of the big grey areas regarding the divorce payment, to do with the payment of pensions and other admin things? Also, we never seem to hear about our assets over there, which I believe adds up to a few pennies. Its the insistence on a specific figure that I find odd.
Your point 2) I agree with, and it will have a direct effect on the outcome. However, in fairness, we've been doing this for years, part of the rich nations appearing to help the less well off members, (and good for propaganda, and influence within the EU).
Your point 3) I agree with this, but for different reasons. We don't necessarily want to highlight our shortcomings in too many areas, which would weaken our bargaining position further. Publication could well give those in the party the opportunity for even more in-fighting, although, in truth, this is starting to happen with today's report of Boris and Gove pushing the PM for a more positive approach to Brexit.
All politicians have a way out, and I think your last comment will be the standard fall-back. I'm hoping that at such a time, when all the bullshit and bollocks has been stripped away, and we see where we stand, we actually see the problems being addressed. Like yourself, I just hope we haven't done too much damage in the meantime, due to our inability to actually govern.
At this very moment in time, I am completely disillusioned with May, and her hands off approach. Its completely wrong, and the EU, along with her party, and Cabinet, are running rings around her. (Even Priti Patel thought she could freelance !). I'm just hoping that the real politicians are doing something good in the background.

329 Re: Brexit negotiations on Mon Nov 13 2017, 14:14

wanderlust

avatar
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
gloswhite wrote:
wanderlust wrote:
gloswhite wrote:I find the ultimatum given to the UK for the payment of the divorce bill rather confusing. We said, in Florence, that we will honour all our commitments, yet we are being forced to come up with a figure, or an open cheque, within 2 weeks. We have asked for a list of what we have committed to, and for how much, although this has been ignored.
I find it confusing too because we already know the commitments we have made and it adds up to about 10% of our national expenditure for one year, at least £90 billion. The Government entered into these agreements so if they genuinely don't know what the exact figure they have agreed to commit, the Government is even more incompetent than we thought. 
I have three main problems with this scenario:
1) That the Remain campaign didn't point out to the British public at the time of the referendum that the immediate cost of leaving makes the paltry £350 million figure quoted by the Leave campaign peanuts in the scheme of things. 
2) That we subsequently voted to not get the benefit of the development programmes we have invested so heavily in - which means that we will have to pay even more to create our own programmes to replace them, effectively paying twice for them pushing the cost of Brexit up even higher which will inevitably lead to cutbacks across the board.
3) That the Government continues to hide the truth from the British public in order to ride what's left of their wave of political popularity.

All this leads me to the conclusion that at some point in the future when the economy is f*****, defence/health/care etc services are cut and jobs disappear, the Tories will turn round and say we may be a lot worse off, but this is what you wanted and we delivered it.
Might be wrong, but is one of the big grey areas regarding the divorce payment, to do with the payment of pensions and other admin things? Also, we never seem to hear about our assets over there, which I believe adds up to a few pennies. Its the insistence on a specific figure that I find odd.
Your point 2) I agree with, and it will have a direct effect on the outcome. However, in fairness, we've been doing this for years, part of the rich nations appearing to help the less well off members, (and good for propaganda, and influence within the EU).
Your point 3) I agree with this, but for different reasons. We don't necessarily want to highlight our shortcomings in too many areas, which would weaken our bargaining position further. Publication could well give those in the party the opportunity for even more in-fighting, although, in truth, this is starting to happen with today's report of Boris and Gove pushing the PM for a more positive approach to Brexit.
All politicians have a way out, and I think your last comment will be the standard fall-back. I'm hoping that at such a time, when all the bullshit and bollocks has been stripped away, and we see where we stand, we actually see the problems being addressed. Like yourself, I just hope we haven't done too much damage in the meantime, due to our inability to actually govern.
At this very moment in time, I am completely disillusioned with May, and her hands off approach. Its completely wrong, and the EU, along with her party, and Cabinet, are running rings around her. (Even Priti Patel thought she could freelance !). I'm just hoping that the real politicians are doing something good in the background.
Sorry to be so doom and gloom about the whole situation but I can't see any realistic scenario where we gain from exiting.
There has to be a specific figure based on what we've agreed to including pension contributions. If we agreed to it, we should pay it. Not sure about whether UK assets in the EU affect the figure as they are and always have been subject to the laws and taxes of the country in which they are based and that won't change.
As regards point 2 I don't completely buy this business of the richer nations in the EU "subsidising" the poorer ones - I see it more as a membership fee in order to get the benefits of membership. Our annual net contribution is currently around £3.8 billion (less than half a percent of the Government's annual spend) but in return we get 27 trade agreements that allow us to import EU goods and foodstuffs at a much lower price than we would otherwise paying. That alone has artificially kept the UK cost of living down for the last 40 years which is why food prices haven't really risen - and in many cases fallen. Sure we've had to adapt our eating habits accordingly with the rise of cheap foreign imports through the likes of Aldi and Lidl etc but this has had the effect of keeping British supermarkets competitive. It could and should be argued that our membership of the EU is a net economic benefit, but in putting forward the more complex argument the nationalist press wouldn't have a stick to beat the EU with so they won't do it. Where I do have a problem with EU subsidies is the Common Agricultural Policy especially in Britain where the majority of rebate is spent on supporting the farmers - traditionally one of the richest sectors in our country and when the EU farming subsidies end, our farmers will be left to compete against subsidised European farmers and they won't have the added advantage of cheap European labour if the immigration laws are tightened even further.
When I wrote about "hiding the truth" from the public in point 3, I agree they shouldn't be publicising anything that weakens our negotiating position, but I don't think it would as the EU economists as well as our own know exactly what the impact of every agreed measure will be and many papers such as the FT analyse every move to death so most of it is in the public domain anyway. What gets me is that the Government talks in soundbites, usually about what they are doing - but without any clear explanation of the issues or analysis of what the EU might do about it.  
Ultimately negotiation is about seeking agreeable compromises on both sides and our Government has some hard choices and compromises to make so I think they should be more open in informing the British public what those choices and compromises are rather than making them for us without any consultation and then presenting their decisions to us as a fait accomplice. 

For example they should be asking us if we want to cut immigrant workers or continue to have cheap food. Do we want to be part of the EU scientific community or do we want to go it alone and fund the research ourselves (at the expense of e.g. the NHS or education?) Do we want to be part of a European military force or should we cut back on the armed services? Do we want to subsidise our own farmers and if so where should Government expenditure be cut in order to pay for it?

There are a lot of serious questions to be answered and the decisions made now will shape the future of this country so the last thing we need is a weak Government that is forcing through an agenda whilst keeping the public in the dark about what is really happening.

330 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Nov 17 2017, 16:14

xmiles

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Ivan Campo
Ivan Campo
Just in case anyone is interested here is a neutral analysis of the bill for leaving the EU. Funnily enough not something anyone on the brexit campaign ever mentioned.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42025865

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