Have the anti-Freedman moaners finally admitted defeat?

So is everyone finally coming round to agreeing that the lack of affordable quality in the squad is a far bigger problem than the manager's tactical limitations seeing as Dougie has now tried every system under the sun (bar 352) and it's clear that we are being let down by absence of quality regardless of what system is played?

I know that when I originally suggested this it was enough to get me branded as a happy clapper, but I haven't seen anyone post that "this squad should be competing for the playoffs", "our squad has the quality to get promoted" or "Freedman should be doing a lot better with these players" nonsense recently.

Cries for 442 have died down as well seeing as he's tried it (unsuccessfully as predicted)

And generally it seems to have been accepted that Dougie couldn't have done anything more in the transfer window having identified a dozen or so players that he wasn't backed to get.

So as far as I can tell, all the moaners have left is "Freedman signed some of these players", "Freedman is responsible for motivating these players" and some random stuff about what the PR team have him say. And "Freedman is Scottish" of course but that's just racist nonsense.

Perhaps I'm reading this wrong but the huge toy-throwing anti-Freedman tantrums seem to have died down to a whimper recently as fans are finally coming to terms with the reality of our situation - but please correct me if I'm wrong (again) - you know you want to.

I would like to see Mourinho or Pellegrini try and manage Wanderers. Any manager worth his salt would struggle with the current crop of players. We played 4-4-2 against Wolves and although we finished pointless I still think it is the only way forward. Can't blame Freedman for the wolves result because he played the format the fans wanted with two wide men.

Reebok Trotter wrote:I would like to see Mourinho or Pellegrini try and manage Wanderers. Any manager worth his salt would struggle with the current crop of players. 

Sacrilege RT!! Join me on the naughty step!

Agree about the 2 strikers but would personally prefer going with wingbacks (White or Threlkeld and Kellett or Moxey - or even teach Feeney to tackle!) in a 352.

While I'm in the camp that the negative impact of DF is overstated, there are things you simply can't deny that he hasn't been able to achieve with ample time.

footballing philosophy for a start... what is it? We're 2 years basically down the road now and I simply couldn't tell you his philosophy, defence first? Clearly not that because the defence lacks the very basic understand of positioning and organisation. 

long ball? The players practice it, but we don't set up to play it, so clearly he's not a long ball man.

pass and move? Certainly not, the players haven't the most basic understanding of off the ball movement. 

There's many other things but thats the most worrying for me, any manager worth their salt, with time (and I do think he's had the time now) will be moving their team slowly but surely into his style of play, results aside. 

you can go back to the personnel argument again but I'm afraid these are now his players, players he either believes play his way, or that he will be able to shape them to do so, so whats happened? 

I like DF a lot as a person, I think he comes across well, really don't understand all the vitriolic abuse he gets, seems a genuine bloke who's trying all sorts to get this team moving, but there comes a point where you have to say he's simply not capable.

And when you look at the names banded about, while a change of manager might be necessary, it certainly won't do us any good long term, we'll be 16 months down the line with another man getting dogs abuse while fans scrap each other in the stands like a bunch of brainless morons.

Have the moaners given up and admitted defeat? Not a chance, they just realise there's nothing more they can do.

The OG post is typical of someone who doesn't actually go to games - fucking clueless. As Hipster rightly says, this is now Freedman's squad with his players playing the way he wants to play.

How many of his signings have been even average, never mind good? None I would say. There are plenty of teams above us in the league that have similar or lower budgets who are doing much better than we are, and are a damn sight more attractive to watch.

Again, as Hipster says, if there was a clear long-term plan then fair enough, but Freedman is clearly making it up as he goes along.

Hipster_Nebula wrote:While I'm in the camp that the negative impact of DF is overstated, there are things you simply can't deny that he hasn't been able to achieve with ample time.

footballing philosophy for a start... what is it? We're 2 years basically down the road now and I simply couldn't tell you his philosophy, defence first? Clearly not that because the defence lacks the very basic understand of positioning and organisation. 

long ball? The players practice it, but we don't set up to play it, so clearly he's not a long ball man.

pass and move? Certainly not, the players haven't the most basic understanding of off the ball movement. 

There's many other things but thats the most worrying for me, any manager worth their salt, with time (and I do think he's had the time now) will be moving their team slowly but surely into his style of play, results aside. 

you can go back to the personnel argument again but I'm afraid these are now his players, players he either believes play his way, or that he will be able to shape them to do so, so whats happened? 

I like DF a lot as a person, I think he comes across well, really don't understand all the vitriolic abuse he gets, seems a genuine bloke who's trying all sorts to get this team moving, but there comes a point where you have to say he's simply not capable.

And when you look at the names banded about, while a change of manager might be necessary, it certainly won't do us any good long term, we'll be 16 months down the line with another man getting dogs abuse while fans scrap each other in the stands like a bunch of brainless morons.

Dougie has many faults for sure, but the problem he faces is massive and in trying to solve it he's tried many things - which is probably why he hasn't stamped a recognisable style on the team.

This is however a different complaint from those levelled at Freedman by the moaners pre-season where they were insisting that the squad was good and therefore Freedman was bad or that he didn't play the right system for what were deemed to be decent players or that he should have signed players like Juke.

wanderlust wrote:

This is however a different complaint from those levelled at Freedman by the moaners pre-season where they were insisting that the squad was good

I can assure you I never said that.

Although I do believe a decent manager would get more out of these absolute ponces.

Natasha Whittam wrote:Have the moaners given up and admitted defeat? Not a chance, they just realise there's nothing more they can do.

Be honest. You/they didn't do anything in the first place apart from jump on a populist bandwagon.

Failing to accept the quality of players was not high enough.
Failing to accept that we were never going to be buying the ridiculous targets suggested or even the reasonable ones Dougie was hoping would be funded.
Failing to accept that the shape of the team is more dependent on the players ability to control the ball than the theoretical "system"

.....all of which was used as a justification to moan about the manager.

What's changed?

It looks like most have finally accepted the fact that we're skint and our squad is crap so all of the old arguments used to demonise Freedman and brand anyone who pointed out that we're skint and crap as a happy clapper have disappeared to be replaced with nit-picking over the youth players and the occasional whinge about selections.

Fans will just find any stick to beat him with, a lot of things are out of his control and lot of the stuff said is just completely un true. Our fans also have to be up there with the least patient in the world, for a club of this size I don't really understand the mentality but thats another matter.

I don't think it's unrealistic having said that to say 2 years down the road we'd start to see genuine philosophy bubbling up and perhaps 1 or 2 youth players firmly ensconced in the first team squad having an impact. 

We've not seen either, and sadly, not even flashes.  


He is doing a fucking hard job and I think he's working very hard but sometimes it just doesn't happen however good your intentions.

wanderlust wrote:

It looks like most have finally accepted the fact that we're skint and our squad is crap so all of the old arguments used to demonise Freedman and brand anyone who pointed out that we're skint and crap as a happy clapper have disappeared to be replaced with nit-picking over the youth players and the occasional whinge about selections.

Once again you ignore my point, so I'll ask you again:

Is Freedman responsible for the quality of the players in the squad?

Is Freedman responsible for them not improving over time?

Is Freedman responsible for the lack of obvious style of play?

I've never heard anybody say that not playing 4-4-2 was Freedman's only downfall. Since you mention it, I think the two matches where we've played one up front (Watford away, Wednesday at home) happen to be the two worst performances of the season.

By the way, this Freedman fella that's not had a pot to piss in...is it the Freedman that signed Alex Baptiste - the one that's on a fortune and had to be loaned out after a year of being shite and playing out of position? Is it the Freedman that signed Rob Hall for half a million, who we're now looking to loan out because he's basically no good? The Freedman that signed Liam Trotter despite clear evidence that he was dire? I could go on and on. If he really has been working on what you'd call a small budget, you still have to ask questions about how he's made the most it.

There's no doubt he hasn't had much to spend this season in terms of transfer fees. I think the board have realised they can now just use him to do their dirty work. But it's a total myth that he's had nothing to work with from the minute he came to the club.

Natasha Whittam wrote:

wanderlust wrote:

It looks like most have finally accepted the fact that we're skint and our squad is crap so all of the old arguments used to demonise Freedman and brand anyone who pointed out that we're skint and crap as a happy clapper have disappeared to be replaced with nit-picking over the youth players and the occasional whinge about selections.

Once again you ignore my point, so I'll ask you again:

Is Freedman responsible for the quality of the players in the squad?

Is Freedman responsible for them not improving over time?

Is Freedman responsible for the lack of obvious style of play?

You didn't ask these questions and it wasn't your point.

Now you're asking these things to avoid acknowledging the fact that you moaners have completely backed down on the quality argument.

But seeing as you've now posted this red herring I might as well go along with your change of subject and answer as follows:

Is Freedman responsible for the quality of the players in the squad? He has no budget and no control over the wages on offer. He made a string of transfer suggestions and wasn't backed to bring them in. Some players he inherited. Therefore IMO he isn't responsible for the quality of the players in the squad as if he'd been backed to get his own choice of players we would currently have a different squad - a squad with better quality.


Is Freedman responsible for them not improving over time? You don't think they've improved? We've had a few turd polishing conversations already this season so I think most people accept that there is a limit as to what can be done with these players, but IMO there's not a lot can be done when the issue is basic skills like passing, movement and control. That said, their attitude seems reasonably positive under the circumstances and results could have been worse although with hindsight not getting anything at Wolves is a disappointment.



Is Freedman responsible for the lack of obvious style of play? Answered this above. With results going against us, he's tried a range of styles which is why no obvious style has emerged. Some would argue that flexibility is a good thing especially if it can be tailored for specific opposition - but only if it delivers results. I guess Freedman is responsible for multiple styles. All he needs is a style that compensates for the lack of quality in the squad and we're laughing.

Lusty the only signings he has missed out on are strikers, everyone else he wanted such as Feeney, Danns and Trotter he got. He's also got McNaughton and Mason back. This squad is his squad and he can only blame himself for failing to get the best out of them.
He doesn't help himself with all the constant tinkering and playing players out of position such as Ream and his reluctance to play a young player such as Hayden White or Threlkeld.

Any time White and Threlkeld have played they've been hammered by the two ronnies on the radio and the fans.

sometimes you can't keep wishing someone is up to it when they're not, especially in unforgiving areas of the pitch such as defence.

Norpig wrote:Lusty the only signings he has missed out on are strikers, everyone else he wanted such as Feeney, Danns and Trotter he got. He's also got McNaughton and Mason back. This squad is his squad and he can only blame himself for failing to get the best out of them.

From what I gather, Dervite was very popular at Charlton. They wanted to keep him but he chose us. I find this odd what with Freedman having no money to spend and all. It must have been Dougie's charisma and footballing passion that did it.

We're getting off topic.

Is everyone finally agreed that the squad is crap or not?

The anti Freedman lobby was originally predicated on the belief that the squad has quality and that the manager should be getting more out of them.
On that basis a different manager would do better.

Now the moaners have abandoned the original argument because they realise that the squad is in fact gash as stated.

Instead, we're getting nit-picking and a reluctant resignation that another manager might not be able to polish this particular turd and that we probably won't be getting one anyway unless we lose every game for a month (always a possibility)

Whether Dougie's signings are good or not (they're not so far) is irrelevant as what he signed was determined by what he was allowed to spend in a very limited market - not what he would have liked to do if he had any kind of transfer budget to work with.

Dervite chose us because we offered him more money, our budget is still in the top 12 of the championship I'm sure but that doesn't mean Freedman's got loads of money to spend as a lot of it is taken up by the larger contracts which were handed out before he arrived. It's an undeniable fact that he's operating under very tough constraints which have caused us to miss out on a number of targets since he arrived.

He's not got the best out of the side so far this season though, regardless of the quality of player Hipsters right to say there should be some sort of a philosophy coming through by now as a result of coaching. Palace had it under Dougie, very tight at the back and clinical on the counter attack. We've seen it in flashes but nowhere near consistently enough and he's clearly struggling to get it in and get a run going which would boost the squads shattered confidence. 

He's at fault because he should be coaching them better and I also think another fair criticism is that not sticking with a settled team has a big effect on this. I wonder if he knows what our best team is because the fans certainly don't. Rotation is a big reason for why we improve in the second half of the season but I also think it's a reason for the slow starts.

Would we be able to attract a manager who could do better under the circumstances? Maybe, but he certainly wouldn't be 'proven' at this level. It would be another gamble which could go massively wrong - Dean Saunders at Wolves.

I've said it before but I can't think of any example of a club who have got promoted whilst actively seeking to reduce the wage bill. He's here so we can tread water for a few years and it's too early to say if we're sinking.

wanderlust wrote:
Is everyone finally agreed that the squad is crap or not?

No.

The argument has always been that Freedman doesn't get the best out of what he's got, the formation being just one example of this.

Wanderlust, I think you've become the site WUM. Even the happy clappers have abandoned you but you still post this crap despite having not been within 50 miles of Horwich this season.

These players were signed by Freedman. We are shit. Therefore he is to blame.

As 1874 rightly says, we are in the top half of spenders yet sit in the bottom 4. So clearly there are managers who can work on a shoestring budget.

I can see where Wanderlust is coming from, not that I necessarily agree 100% fans will always find something to lock onto and cry about until they find the next thing, It'd be the same if we were winning, something would be a bone to pick. 

not to mention the spurious stuff about his character, forgive me if any of you have met dougie and spoken at length with him, that grates at me the most, a lot of the on field stuff and recruitment complaints are justified and well reasoned. 

fact of the matter is whether you like DF or not, he should be doing better or at the very least have flashes of his "plan" taking shape.