Have the anti-Freedman moaners finally admitted defeat?

bwfc1874 wrote:I think the difference is being realistic and in touch with football and unrealistic and not having a clue. I doubt LPP could name half the Wolves team.

I suggest you work on that sense of humour too and re-read the sentence that followed it 1874. 

And as to the wolves team well it goes like this. 

Kenny Hibbert. Bar steward. Need I say any more?

In particular re-read this little paragraph lusty and 1874 and you'll see why there was a smiley at the end of the sentence that preceded it. I really didn't expect either of you to be quite so dense but, well, life's full of little disappointments isn't it?

"The days I want to see again are the ones where 'little' Bolton feared nobody. The days when being drawn against us in a Cup made Premiership managers groan because they were hoping for something easier. I don't mean we should be arrogant or blind to reality, merely that we should go into every match believing we CAN win not go into a game against a team that were a division below us last season EXPECTING to lose. "

Breadman wrote:

bwfc1874 wrote:I think the difference is being realistic and in touch with football and unrealistic and not having a clue. I doubt LPP could name half the Wolves team.

When did being able to name 51% of the opposition's players become one of the criteria for being "clued up"...?

Are we going to start being tested on our knowledge of every other team in the league before we can post on here?

Don't do your usual twisting of the point Breadman, this is about expectancy of results not who can post.

How can you judge the quality of the opposition - and therefore whether we should be beating them if you've no idea who plays for them? League position would be fair or prior results, beyond that I'm struggling.

Natasha Whittam wrote:

bwfc1874 wrote:I think the difference is being realistic and in touch with football and unrealistic and not having a clue. I doubt LPP could name half the Wolves team.

A true football fan is never realistic or in touch. We dream the dream.

No that's you. There is definitely a subspecies of football fan who hope for the best, fear the worst and doesn't gob off to other fans when we do well acting graciously in defeat or victory.

I'll explain that to you when you grow up.

I think we can all agree (probably) the one thing we do expect, whoever we play is commitment, passion, desire, hunger... the basics.

I don't expect to beat anyone, but i expect to give every team a tough game.

bwfc1874 wrote:





How can you judge the quality of the opposition - and therefore whether we should be beating them if you've no idea who plays for them? League position would be fair or prior results, beyond that I'm struggling.

Are you aware that you've just answered your own question there?

Back in the days before Sky TV and FIFA14 or whatever, we largely didn't have a clue who played for the opposition most weeks.

Yeah, you knew the "famous" players who were in the papers, but you didn't have a clue who 75% of the rest were.

You stated that you doubted that LPP could name half of the Wolves team like it was some sort of judgement on his footballing knowledge and he was in some way deficient because he couldn't name them.

That was my point.

I generally don't give a fuck who plays for the opposition and won't be wasting any time researching Championship squad lists, just so that I can "properly" evaluate our chances against them.

If they're above us in the league, it might be a tough game.

If they're round about or below us, we should win.

Simple as that - old school methodology in action.

You know, I'm really surprised I actually need to type this, especially with you lusty since we've had this conversation so many times but here goes. 

I do NOT expect us to win EVERY game. I don't expect us to play like Barca every week either. You already know that, I've said it often enough. 

I most certainly DO expect to feel that the team out there is the best we have available and is doing its best to win. I expect to feel I'm getting value for money. 

I go into every match believing we CAN win because it's true, doesn't matter if you're Barca, Bolton or Bognor Regis reserves, every football match is winnable if it's the right day for you. 

But I won't scream when we lose, not as long as I think we did our best on the day and that we gave it our all. 

However, I really, REALLY don't want to be part of the mindset that says "oh, it's Wolves, a team who were a league below us four months ago. We really should expect to lose any away game against them because they're so mighty." 

I think expecting to lose before a ball is even kicked to any team in this division is frankly craven and utterly unconscionable. If we were in the premier league that would be different but most of the teams in this league are no bigger in terms of fanbase and history than we are. Sure, there are some exceptions like Leeds Utd in terms of fanbase but they haven't been a top flight club for more than a decade now. The truth is that the second tier is the most competitive and open of all four divisions and everyone should be able to beat everyone else. No one should be going to a newly promoted team's place thinking "we'll lose" before the game even starts. 

But obviously you and 1874 do lusty, then you turn around and call ME negative.

You've completely missed the point, this is nothing to do with your back in the day, proper football nostalgia etc. 

This is about judging the quality of the opposition and whether or not we should be beating them. Which I think requires some knowledge of the side to do so effectively. Clearly not calling LPP deficient in anyway, I'm saying you can't possibly make an accurate call on whether we should beat a team if you know nothing about them.

So it's either, "being able to name half their team" or "knowing nothing about them".

Bit of a difference there.

Which is it?

bwfc1874 wrote:You've completely missed the point, this is nothing to do with your back in the day, proper football nostalgia etc. 

This is about judging the quality of the opposition and whether or not we should be beating them. Which I think requires some knowledge of the side to do so effectively. Clearly not calling LPP deficient in anyway, I'm saying you can't possibly make an accurate call on whether we should beat a team if you know nothing about them.

What do you mean back in the day? Wolves only signed Hibbert last week! 

And next week that nice Mr Greaves is going to unveil our new lad, some fella called Frank or so they say. Looks a bit of a Flash Harry to me but I suppose hair that long is fashionable on men today. It seems to get him the dolly birds at any rate.

Breadman wrote:So it's either, "being able to name half their team" or "knowing nothing about them".

Bit of a difference there.

Which is it?

You're missing the point to an embarrassing extent. Go and look for an argument elsewhere, you've failed here.

Being more serious 1874, I don't know all the Wolves players and won't pretend to. I know they have a few good ones and that Jarvis was considered a real threat before the match but I think you're missing my point here. 

It's not so much about knowledge as a mindset. A team that was in League One last season versus a team that was in the Premier League two seasons ago. Yet the team that was in the top flight is being told they should EXPECT defeat against a team that was in the THIRD DIVISION four months ago. 

I don't call that realism; I call it defeatism. No Bolton Wanderers team in my lifetime that was not in the Premier League has gone into a season as negatively as we have this one. Hope is not just thin on the ground, it's non-existent and if you want to accept that then so be it. I won't, not now and not ever. Eddie needs to wake up, Phil needs to man up and admit his mistakes including DF and the whole damned place needs a real shake up from top to bottom to re-ignite the sort of feeling we had in the nineties when we slowly and surely climbed out of the abyss, kicking some serious backside along the way. I know we're never going to be bigger than Real Madrid, wouldn't want us to be. 

I just want us to be Bolton Wanderers again. Is that really too much to ask?

Are you joking when you say Jarvis was a threat?

Nobody has mentioned that we should expect to lose, and judging by Freedman's line up he set up to have a go at them so clearly he fancied us. Expecting to beat a team like Wolves at their place is just arrogance though IMO and based on nothing at all other than ignorance IMO. I know you're not saying that, but my point is broader in that a lot of fans think that just because they were league one last year we should be rolling them over - madness.

bwfc1874 wrote:Are you joking when you say Jarvis was a threat?

Nobody has mentioned that we should expect to lose, and judging by Freedman's line up he set up to have a go at them so clearly he fancied us. Expecting to beat a team like Wolves at their place is just arrogance though IMO and based on nothing at all other than ignorance IMO. I know you're not saying that, but my point is broader in that a lot of fans think that just because they were league one last year we should be rolling them over - madness.

I never expected an easy game against the plastic Wanderers. There's almost never been one against them for as long as I can remember and I really do go back to Kenny Hibbert and his "goal". But I do feel that this season we've been far too willing (myself included) to shrug our shoulders and feel we'll lose before a ball is kicked. Wolves were not and are not invincible Gods of football, we could and should have been at least hopeful going into that match and the fact many of us weren't (again myself included) bothers me more than a little. We should be at least confident of a point away from home to a newly promoted team. More importantly we should be GETTING at least a point in those circumstances, especially if we are going to move forward as a club. 

As I said, the initial comment was somewhat tongue in cheek, I am genuinely surprised no one seemed to catch that BUT the point behind it stands. The lack of self belief in players, management AND fans at the moment is very worrisome, at least to me.

That's all fair, and I agree we should be targeting a point in these games and Freedman certainly didn't set up to defend at all costs. Had it not been for a goalkeeping error and a penalty miss we would have got something, would you not agree that's not down to Freedman?

bwfc1874 wrote:That's all fair, and I agree we should be targeting a point in these games and Freedman certainly didn't set up to defend at all costs. Had it not been for a goalkeeping error and a penalty miss we would have got something, would you not agree that's not down to Freedman?

Sure, he can't control what happens once they cross the white line. So Lonergan's error, the missed pen and so on weren't his personal fault per se. 

However, I think you have to admit in return that over two years the pattern of silly errors and the fact we appear to keep on making them and the fact we aren't moving forward on the field has to be down to the manager and his coaching staff and methods. 

I don't think even Mourinho could make this lot world beaters but Freedman has signally failed to get the best out of them or even a significant improvement from them. That IS his fault.

As I've said in another thread, Freedman should be getting more out of the players in terms of defensive organisation and some sort of an attacking plan.  I don't think his failure is as abject and  horrendous as many make out on here but he's far from faultless.

Slightly off topic anyway, my point remains that Wolves are a good team and we were very unlucky my to get anything. Unfortunately it's not enough to be unlucky and we need to start converting some of these losses to wins.

Lonerghan is a liability,I texted my mate Culsh who was in Croatia giving him the rundown on the Rotherham match.I pointed out Lonerghan was a liability as per say Knight was in defence last year.
On my way home from the Trafford Centre it seemed by the commentary Lonerghan had made some good saves and I commented that I had slagged him off days earlier.
It was just before half time and I went in to my mates house for 5 minutes,on my way home the HT results are read out 1-0 Wolves.Wondering what happened I tuned in to Tower FM,were I heard the goal was due to Lonerghans Achilles heel( he can't command his box) I was correct.At the Rotherham match in the dieing moments Rotherham got a corner,their Goalie came up for it,the cross came in and the ball was in the air the ESL screamed " catch it" before he came for the ball.
As for the Penalty Cravies had been substituted a mistake as Beckford and Mason are too similair.Beckford wins a pen Cravies is off the pitch.Neither Mason or Beckford stepped up which was poor as a midfielder should be behind the forwards when it comes to it.

White84 wrote:Lonerghan is a liability,I texted my mate Culsh who was in Croatia giving him the rundown on the Rotherham match.

Is he your boyfriend?

Leeds have chosen their new manager, Darko Milanic, because he is good looking.

Leeds owner Cellino added: "His particularly qualities? He's good looking, what can I tell you?"

If only Gartside had gone down this route, things could have been much different. David Ginola would now be managing us in the Premier League.