BWFCST open business

Norpig wrote:
If you want to call me a fool, carry on

If you insist. FOOL!

finlaymcdanger wrote:I juts spent my £10 membership fee on vanilla bean ice cream.

Glad to see someone has some sense.

Natasha Whittam wrote:

Norpig wrote:
If you want to call me a fool, carry on

If you insist. FOOL!

 better than the usual utter bellend i suppose

karlypants wrote:

finlaymcdanger wrote:I juts spent my £10 membership fee on vanilla bean ice cream.

Glad to see someone has some sense.

£10 on ice cream? Ripped off and a boring flavour.

Norpig wrote:

Sluffy wrote:You can join the Bolton Wanderers Supporters Trust for an initial cost of a £10 membership.

The payment guarantees you absolutely nothing apart from voting into office the people to represent the ST.

The ST's aim is to have a say in the running of the club.

I personally doubt that anyone putting millions of their money into a business in the aim to make a profit from it would seriously listen to anybody else's opinion of what they should do with their money, particularly if that person has an emotional attachment rather than a hard headed business view.  

I therefore think the concept of them having a say in somebody else's business is fundamentally flawed.

Hundreds of people however have been paying £10 membership fee to the ST today on God knows whatever rationale they may have.

They are parting with their money on a premise that is far from certain to be delivered, in order to vote in people they probably have no idea about to represent them and giving their money to an organisation that has not told anyone what they would spend it on.

It would seem the old saying that 'a fool and their money are easily parted' is alive and currently in action in the Bolton area today and for a while thereafter.

Sluffy i get that you're against the ST but calling fans who want to see what they can achieve fools is just not on. 
 If you want to call me a fool, carry on as i will be putting up my £10 and not just sitting back and moaning about the ST without actually doing anything about it.

Your hatred of one of the steering group is clouding your judgement on all this and you are coming across as sanctimonius

Mate, I hate no one, life's to short but there are people I simply don't trust and for good reason.

I'm sorry if you don't like my take on the ST, it is nothing personal to you nor anybody else, it is simply a rationale view of the ST's aim and prospect of achieving it.

If you put away your emotional view of me and the ST for one moment and examine what I've said in my post above, then what exactly can you disagree with?

Are the ST certain to achieve a place on the new board or even a say in how to run the business?  - No.

Do you know who is standing to be elected in the ST? - No.

Do you know what the ST intends to spend the money donated to it by well meaning fans of the club? - No.


If Mrs Norpig told you that she had given out £10's to complete stranger off the street, who said they were going to get your favourite group to do a gig in your local pub - would you think that was a sensible thing for her to do?

Yes, the ST 'might' achieve a voice to be heard on the new board and similarly yes, your favourite band might do a one night stand at your local - but I think the chances of either are slim - don't you?

If you think I'm being sanctimonious for simply thinking with my head than with my heart, then yes, I probably then am, I'm certainly not ashamed of looking first before leaping.

If you want to give your £10 to somebody you don't know, have no idea what they might spend it on and with no guarantee what so ever of having any voice on the new board - then go right ahead, as it is your money to spend how you like.

Fabians Right Peg wrote:

Sluffy wrote:I personally doubt that anyone putting millions of their money into a business in the aim to make a profit from it would seriously listen to anybody else's opinion of what they should do with their money, particularly if that person has an emotional attachment rather than a hard headed business view.  

I therefore think the concept of them having a say in somebody else's business is fundamentally flawed.

Hundreds of people however have been paying £10 membership fee to the ST today on God knows whatever rationale they may have.

I suppose in a way you have summed up the basis for what I hope will be the reason that any owner has to listen to the ST.

Yes many of us have an emotional attachment to the club and it could be argued that those of us that still go regular are beyond hope and are in effect a sure fire earner for the new owner.

However if they want to make money they have to attract back those that have voted with there feet, for some that would have been because of the football, for others it may have been to do with the way the club went and it's image.

Ultimately the owner needs the current core fans to encourage others to come back to the club and that means communicating with us, and keeping us happy, how many of us would tell a friend to come to a game, not just for the football but because it's a great day out?

Any sensible owner will engage with as many supporters groups as possible, I also want to see the ST get involved in encouraging younger fans to the macron, hell open a full block for anyone with an under 8 year old and let them in for a fiver first come first served basis.

We need to build for the future and hopefully a proper ST can help do that.

Idealistic rhetoric I'm afraid.

It's ultimately the product that matters not the marketing.

Football fans are in the main fickle and a successful team draws a bigger crowd than a poorly performing team does.

Price and accessibility is also a big factor to many and that is why people started watching games in the local pubs on dodgy streams rather than go to the game even when we were being successful.

Style of play also effects attendance - nobody wanted to continually see Megson's style of football - even though it was effective.  We stayed in the Premier but lost fans.

However the owners took a different tack, appointed Coyle and his one way of playing - all out attack - with a disastrous outcome of relegation - which resulted in even lower crowds in the lower tier of the Championship.

Yes you probably could get some fans to return at the margins but not in any significant numbers until the team becomes successful again.

The people behind Holdsworth are businessmen simply won't be building the success of the business on the naive idea of simply trying to attracting a few hundred/ thousand fans back on match day.  Their business plan - and thus intended profit is not based on that premise and therefore the ST's involvement may well be tolerated and given lip service but I very much doubt much more than that.

The ST will only come into its own when the club is shorn of assets and investors can no longer see it viable to make a profit from investing in it for the while.

Fabians Right Peg wrote:

Sluffy wrote:I personally doubt that anyone putting millions of their money into a business in the aim to make a profit from it would seriously listen to anybody else's opinion of what they should do with their money, particularly if that person has an emotional attachment rather than a hard headed business view.  

I therefore think the concept of them having a say in somebody else's business is fundamentally flawed.

Hundreds of people however have been paying £10 membership fee to the ST today on God knows whatever rationale they may have.

I suppose in a way you have summed up the basis for what I hope will be the reason that any owner has to listen to the ST.

Yes many of us have an emotional attachment to the club and it could be argued that those of us that still go regular are beyond hope and are in effect a sure fire earner for the new owner.

However if they want to make money they have to attract back those that have voted with there feet, for some that would have been because of the football, for others it may have been to do with the way the club went and it's image.

Ultimately the owner needs the current core fans to encourage others to come back to the club and that means communicating with us, and keeping us happy, how many of us would tell a friend to come to a game, not just for the football but because it's a great day out?

Any sensible owner will engage with as many supporters groups as possible, I also want to see the ST get involved in encouraging younger fans to the macron, hell open a full block for anyone with an under 8 year old and let them in for a fiver first come first served basis.

We need to build for the future and hopefully a proper ST can help do that.

Idealistic rhetoric I'm afraid.

It's ultimately the product that matters not the marketing.

Football fans are in the main fickle and a successful team draws a bigger crowd than a poorly performing team does.

Price and accessibility is also a big factor to many and that is why people started watching games in the local pubs on dodgy streams rather than go to the game even when we were being successful.

Style of play also effects attendance - nobody wanted to continually see Megson's style of football - even though it was effective.  We stayed in the Premier but lost fans.

However the owners took a different tack - based on overwhelming fan influence - appointed Coyle and his one way of playing - all out attack - with an ultimately disastrous outcome of relegation - which resulted in even lower crowds in the lower tier of the Championship.

Yes you probably could get some fans to return at the margins but not in any significant numbers until the team becomes successful again.

The people behind Holdsworth are businessmen simply won't be building the success of the business on the naive idea of simply trying to attracting a few hundred/ thousand fans back on match day.  Their business plan - and thus intended profit is not based on that premise and therefore the ST's involvement may well be tolerated and given lip service but I very much doubt much more than that.

The ST will only come into its own when the club is shorn of assets and investors can no longer see it viable to make a profit from investing in it for the while.

Sluffy wrote:

Norpig wrote:

Sluffy wrote:You can join the Bolton Wanderers Supporters Trust for an initial cost of a £10 membership.

The payment guarantees you absolutely nothing apart from voting into office the people to represent the ST.

The ST's aim is to have a say in the running of the club.

I personally doubt that anyone putting millions of their money into a business in the aim to make a profit from it would seriously listen to anybody else's opinion of what they should do with their money, particularly if that person has an emotional attachment rather than a hard headed business view.  

I therefore think the concept of them having a say in somebody else's business is fundamentally flawed.

Hundreds of people however have been paying £10 membership fee to the ST today on God knows whatever rationale they may have.

They are parting with their money on a premise that is far from certain to be delivered, in order to vote in people they probably have no idea about to represent them and giving their money to an organisation that has not told anyone what they would spend it on.

It would seem the old saying that 'a fool and their money are easily parted' is alive and currently in action in the Bolton area today and for a while thereafter.

Sluffy i get that you're against the ST but calling fans who want to see what they can achieve fools is just not on. 
 If you want to call me a fool, carry on as i will be putting up my £10 and not just sitting back and moaning about the ST without actually doing anything about it.

Your hatred of one of the steering group is clouding your judgement on all this and you are coming across as sanctimonius

Mate, I hate no one, life's to short but there are people I simply don't trust and for good reason.

I'm sorry if you don't like my take on the ST, it is nothing personal to you nor anybody else, it is simply a rationale view of the ST's aim and prospect of achieving it.

If you put away your emotional view of me and the ST for one moment and examine what I've said in my post above, then what exactly can you disagree with?

Are the ST certain to achieve a place on the new board or even a say in how to run the business?  - No.

Do you know who is standing to be elected in the ST? - No.

Do you know what the ST intends to spend the money donated to it by well meaning fans of the club? - No.


If Mrs Norpig told you that she had given out £10's to complete stranger off the street, who said they were going to get your favourite group to do a gig in your local pub - would you think that was a sensible thing for her to do?

Yes, the ST 'might' achieve a voice to be heard on the new board and similarly yes, your favourite band might do a one night stand at your local - but I think the chances of either are slim - don't you?

If you think I'm being sanctimonious for simply thinking with my head than with my heart, then yes, I probably then am, I'm certainly not ashamed of looking first before leaping.

If you want to give your £10 to somebody you don't know, have no idea what they might spend it on and with no guarantee what so ever of having any voice on the new board - then go right ahead, as it is your money to spend how you like.

Sluffy the issue i have with you is that you have written off the ST before they have even been properly formed. You're right we don't know exactly what is going to happen and if they will have any real say in how the club is run but if no one tries then how we will ever know?

If it helps in only a small way then that's still a million times better than what happens now - the old regime didn't give a monkeys and communication was dreadful.

I don't want the ST to take over the club i just want them to have a meaningful input in to how the club goes forward from here. Any new owner would be shooting themselves in the foot to ignore what the fans want and what their opinions are.

Don't forget around 6000 fans have already signed up, maybe they won't all be prepared to put their money in now but i think it's a risk worth taking

The problem as I see it is that the creation of the Truss may actually make it easier for the club to ignore and manipulate the fans, perverse as it sounds.

As I've said before on here, the Truss very much reminds me of one of those Works Council / Shop Floor Input Group thingies that you get in businesses with no union representation.

I'm not proud of this but I've used this type of group loads in the past to create the sense that the people involved are being listened to but in reality, it's nothing more than a tool designed to fool the gobby oiks who spend all day knocking on your door with their trivial problems, into thinking that you're taking them and their pointless bollocks seriously.

When in reality, you couldn't give a shit if they want Quavers in the vending machine rather than Skips.

Nor do you give a toss if they want a new kettle for the canteen.

But these "concerns" are useful when it comes to pay rise time.

Instead of the 5% they're asking for, you give them 1.5% but with the understanding that you'll buy a new kettle and make sure that the vending machine's overflowing with Quavers from now on.

So they go away thinking that they've pretty much got one over on you and you've been forced into meeting the majority of their demands and they think they're ace and dead clever.

When in reality, you've got away with giving them the absolute minimum pay rise and all it's cost you is £9.99 for an ASDA Value kettle and a phone call to the vending machine company to ask for the Quavers.

But they're convinced they've "won"......

These bodies are actually dangerous because they make it easier for the nasty people in charge to enforce their will, whilst all the time pissing up the backs of the Truss and laughing at how child-like they are in their naivety and simple-mindedness.

If 5,000 people pay £10 for their membership, then that is £50,000 per year going into the ST's coffers.

What are they actually going to spend it on?

Does anybody know?

Quavers and a new kettle.

Cajunboy wrote:If 5,000 people pay £10 for their membership, then that is £50,000 per year going into the ST's coffers.

What are they actually going to spend it on?

Does anybody know?

Stationery doesn't come cheap you know, and they'll probably need some expenses like a season ticket, company car for away games with travel expenses and the BWFCST Annual Ball with the Mayor of Kearsley in attendance. And that vending machine will need topping up on a regular basis. I've already asked my pay-bob whether these subscriptions are tax deductable so may be less than a tenner, net.

One of them is a successful male model, he doesn't need the cash.

Sluffy wrote:Are the ST certain to achieve a place on the new board or even a say in how to run the business?  - No.

No the ST aren't certain to achieve a place on the board, but it's equally uncertain that they won't - that's the point.

Yes, the ST 'might' achieve a voice to be heard on the new board and similarly yes, your favourite band might do a one night stand at your local - but I think the chances of either are slim - don't you?

That's the sort of patronising statement that keeps people reacting to you, clearly the people donating money don't feel as certain as you do about this.

If you think I'm being sanctimonious for simply thinking with my head than with my heart, then yes, I probably then am, I'm certainly not ashamed of looking first before leaping.

It's blatantly obvious that you have a personal issue with the Steering Group no matter how much you deny it, I doubt there's a poster on here who disagrees. 

Instead of the patronising comment implying anybody stupid enough to pledge a tenner is doing so blindly, just accept that not everybody's had the same interpretation as you have on the events of the last few months. We've all followed the ST's campaign closely but clearly haven't come to the same conclusions about them.

Breadman wrote:Quavers and a new kettle.

  That's a lot of Quavers!!!

To sluffy and 1874, 

I don't have a personal stake in this row between the two of you but feel it's apparent you're never going to find common ground here. The Supporter's Trust, assuming it ever actually gets properly formed and properly organised is right now little more than a paper exercise. 

I personally want it to succeed, to be good for the club we all love but having seen too many false dawns at both Leeds and Portsmouth over the last decade I believe we are in danger and very real danger at that of following their paths all too closely. I'm not at all sanguine about SSI either, the fact their deal has been questioned by the League at such a late hour worries me and the fact Eddie seems perfectly content to throw away more and more of the goodwill he had with the fans and people of Bolton worries me even more. 

If anything the ST doesn't truly rank high on my list of things to be concerned about at the moment as it doesn't even officially exist yet. I won't join on blind faith but I will join in a heartbeat if we see a Steering Committee that is open and honest about what an ST can realistically be expected to achieve. Frankly right now all we get is a lot of hot air 'marketing talk' and there seems to be a great deal of 'pie in the sky' thinking about what will happen. Get the Steering Committee in place with people who don't 'hide' and refuse to name themselves and then I'll pay more attention to you. Until then the ST isn't worth this long ongoing spat on this and other sites. BWFC has much bigger problems.

bwfc1874 wrote:Instead of the patronising comment implying anybody stupid enough to pledge a tenner is doing so blindly, just accept that not everybody's had the same interpretation as you have on the events of the last few months. We've all followed the ST's campaign closely but clearly haven't come to the same conclusions about them.

I doubt most of them actually thought anything at all let alone drawing conclusions. I would have though most would just have followed their hearts and the false premise of 'anything is better than nothing' - which isn't always the case.

For what it is worth I'm certainly not alone with my views of what the ST could realistically achieve and equally I have no doubt that it will be established as a many people want it to be the magic answer to the clubs problems.

Time will tell how much the ST achieves but until the club is left with no pot to piss in I suggest it will be as effective in representing the fans voice as the long established BWSA has been.

Absolutely no issue with anybody thinking the ST will fail, I'm pretty pessimistic myself but for the sake of a tenner I'm interested to see what they can do. To be perfectly honest I just get sick of your patronising tone when talking about anybody who doesn't share your view on the ST.

Still don't know where this 50 grand is going though. Until I know the answer to that question, my tenner is staying in my wallet.