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Brexit negotiations

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541 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:37 am

wanderlust


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Corbyn has called for a general election to "break the Brexit deadlock"

What a stupid move. By trying to make Brexit a party issue - which it isn't and never will be - he is opening the door for a victory for the Conservatives as a victory for Brexit and that has every chance of happening as even the most pro-EU Tories and voters will back their party first.
If he wants to get into power, the only way forward is to demand a properly informed people's vote with multiple options and if his position defeats May he then may have enough of a platform to go for it. But asking for that now is suicidal and dumb.

The man's not fit to lead the Labour party.

542 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:24 am

T.R.O.Y


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
The parties official stance is to renegotiate a better deal with the EU. So this is the only move. A second referendum should only be the absolute last resort if parliament fails.

543 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:39 am

Hipster_Nebula

Hipster_Nebula
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Yes they want a new unique CU and SM with all the benefits of membership and none of the burdens.

When the Tories said similar things they were pilloried.  "Cake and eat it"

He's also ruled out no deal. So the EU know they don't have to offer anything and he will never walk away.

Fantastic stuff.

544 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:40 am

Hipster_Nebula

Hipster_Nebula
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@wanderlust wrote:Corbyn has called for a general election to "break the Brexit deadlock"

What a stupid move. By trying to make Brexit a party issue - which it isn't and never will be - he is opening the door for a victory for the Conservatives as a victory for Brexit and that has every chance of happening as even the most pro-EU Tories and voters will back their party first.
If he wants to get into power, the only way forward is to demand a properly informed people's vote with multiple options and if his position defeats May he then may have enough of a platform to go for it. But asking for that now is suicidal and dumb.

The man's not fit to lead the Labour party.

Yes as long as there are about 12 leave options and remain well know it definitely wasn't rigged .



Last edited by Hipster_Nebula on Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:08 am; edited 1 time in total

545 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:05 am

Dunkels King

Dunkels King
Nicolas Anelka
Nicolas Anelka
@wanderlust wrote:Corbyn has called for a general election to "break the Brexit deadlock"

What a stupid move. By trying to make Brexit a party issue - which it isn't and never will be - he is opening the door for a victory for the Conservatives as a victory for Brexit and that has every chance of happening as even the most pro-EU Tories and voters will back their party first.
If he wants to get into power, the only way forward is to demand a properly informed people's vote with multiple options and if his position defeats May he then may have enough of a platform to go for it. But asking for that now is suicidal and dumb.

The man's not fit to lead the Labour party.

I agree to a certain extent, but I honestly believe that the only way Labour would get in is to back cancelling completely Article 50. The other thing is that some people believe Corbyn doesn't actually want to be PM and is happy with just being the Leader of the Opposition. What is certain is neither of the main Party leaders is fit to be PM at this time.

546 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:53 am

xmiles

xmiles
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
@wanderlust wrote:Corbyn has called for a general election to "break the Brexit deadlock"

What a stupid move. By trying to make Brexit a party issue - which it isn't and never will be - he is opening the door for a victory for the Conservatives as a victory for Brexit and that has every chance of happening as even the most pro-EU Tories and voters will back their party first.
If he wants to get into power, the only way forward is to demand a properly informed people's vote with multiple options and if his position defeats May he then may have enough of a platform to go for it. But asking for that now is suicidal and dumb.

The man's not fit to lead the Labour party.

Corbyn is an idiot. A general election will solve nothing and with him as Labour leader there is no guarantee the Tories won't be re-elected.

Plus the EU have said they won't renegotiate and his policy, contrary to the wishes of most Labour voters, is to proceed with brexit.

The only options on the table are a disastrous no deal exit or another referendum. If brexit fans weren't such hypocrites they would welcome a second referendum as if they won it brexit would be unstoppable. Whatever happened to taking back control?



Last edited by xmiles on Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:13 am; edited 1 time in total

547 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:09 am

Hipster_Nebula

Hipster_Nebula
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@xmiles wrote:
@wanderlust wrote:Corbyn has called for a general election to "break the Brexit deadlock"

What a stupid move. By trying to make Brexit a party issue - which it isn't and never will be - he is opening the door for a victory for the Conservatives as a victory for Brexit and that has every chance of happening as even the most pro-EU Tories and voters will back their party first.
If he wants to get into power, the only way forward is to demand a properly informed people's vote with multiple options and if his position defeats May he then may have enough of a platform to go for it. But asking for that now is suicidal and dumb.

The man's not fit to lead the Labour party.

Corbyn is an idiot. A general election will solve nothing and with him as Labour leader there is no guarantee the Tories won't be re-elected.

Plus the EU have said they won't renegotiate and his policy, contrary to the wishes of most Labour voters, is to proceed with brexit.

The only options on the table are a disastrous no deal exit or another referendum. If brexit fans weren't such hypocrites they would welcome a second referendum as if they won it brexit would be unstopable. Whatever happened to taking back control?

Why would it be unstoppable? 

Many would call for a third vote and they'd be entitled too. Things change quickly in politics and people are allowed to change their minds.

548 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:49 am

Dunkels King

Dunkels King
Nicolas Anelka
Nicolas Anelka
@Hipster_Nebula wrote:
@xmiles wrote:
@wanderlust wrote:Corbyn has called for a general election to "break the Brexit deadlock"

What a stupid move. By trying to make Brexit a party issue - which it isn't and never will be - he is opening the door for a victory for the Conservatives as a victory for Brexit and that has every chance of happening as even the most pro-EU Tories and voters will back their party first.
If he wants to get into power, the only way forward is to demand a properly informed people's vote with multiple options and if his position defeats May he then may have enough of a platform to go for it. But asking for that now is suicidal and dumb.

The man's not fit to lead the Labour party.

Corbyn is an idiot. A general election will solve nothing and with him as Labour leader there is no guarantee the Tories won't be re-elected.

Plus the EU have said they won't renegotiate and his policy, contrary to the wishes of most Labour voters, is to proceed with brexit.

The only options on the table are a disastrous no deal exit or another referendum. If brexit fans weren't such hypocrites they would welcome a second referendum as if they won it brexit would be unstopable. Whatever happened to taking back control?

Why would it be unstoppable? 

Many would call for a third vote and they'd be entitled too. Things change quickly in politics and people are allowed to change their minds.

People aren't allowed to change their minds according to Theresa May. At the end of the day, something as monumentally complicated as being a part of the EU or not should never have been broken down in to simple "Leave" or "Remain" options. How stupid was Cameron, how stupid is May, how stupid is Corbyn, how stupid was Blair. The list of clueless self serving MPs is endless. Nearly all of them are giving their "opinions and beliefs" based only on what they themselves can get out of it or already have.

549 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:08 am

Hipster_Nebula

Hipster_Nebula
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
That may be. But it doesn't negate the fact if people can change their mind once without the result being implemented they surely can again. And should be able to in all future referenda and elections 

I welcome it. The people know best.

550 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:55 am

T.R.O.Y


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
@xmiles wrote:
@wanderlust wrote:Corbyn has called for a general election to "break the Brexit deadlock"

What a stupid move. By trying to make Brexit a party issue - which it isn't and never will be - he is opening the door for a victory for the Conservatives as a victory for Brexit and that has every chance of happening as even the most pro-EU Tories and voters will back their party first.
If he wants to get into power, the only way forward is to demand a properly informed people's vote with multiple options and if his position defeats May he then may have enough of a platform to go for it. But asking for that now is suicidal and dumb.

The man's not fit to lead the Labour party.

Corbyn is an idiot. A general election will solve nothing and with him as Labour leader there is no guarantee the Tories won't be re-elected.

Plus the EU have said they won't renegotiate and his policy, contrary to the wishes of most Labour voters, is to proceed with brexit.

The only options on the table are a disastrous no deal exit or another referendum. If brexit fans weren't such hypocrites they would welcome a second referendum as if they won it brexit would be unstoppable. Whatever happened to taking back control?

Disagree X, surely a second referendum should only be considered once all parliamentary options are exhausted - and until a general election takes place that hasn’t happened.

The EU sworn renegotiate on a deal restricted by May’s red lines but Labour want to remain a part of the Customs Union and would agree to align workers rights. These things may make a difference in securing a deal. If a better one can’t be delivered then that’s the time for a second referendum, as this shit will never pass.

551 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:58 pm

T.R.O.Y


Andy Walker
Andy Walker

552 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:43 pm

xmiles

xmiles
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
@T.R.O.Y wrote:
@xmiles wrote:
@wanderlust wrote:Corbyn has called for a general election to "break the Brexit deadlock"

What a stupid move. By trying to make Brexit a party issue - which it isn't and never will be - he is opening the door for a victory for the Conservatives as a victory for Brexit and that has every chance of happening as even the most pro-EU Tories and voters will back their party first.
If he wants to get into power, the only way forward is to demand a properly informed people's vote with multiple options and if his position defeats May he then may have enough of a platform to go for it. But asking for that now is suicidal and dumb.

The man's not fit to lead the Labour party.

Corbyn is an idiot. A general election will solve nothing and with him as Labour leader there is no guarantee the Tories won't be re-elected.

Plus the EU have said they won't renegotiate and his policy, contrary to the wishes of most Labour voters, is to proceed with brexit.

The only options on the table are a disastrous no deal exit or another referendum. If brexit fans weren't such hypocrites they would welcome a second referendum as if they won it brexit would be unstoppable. Whatever happened to taking back control?

Disagree X, surely a second referendum should only be considered once all parliamentary options are exhausted - and until a general election takes place that hasn’t happened.

The EU sworn renegotiate on a deal restricted by May’s red lines but Labour want to remain a part of the Customs Union and would agree to align workers rights. These things may make a difference in securing a deal. If a better one can’t be delivered then that’s the time for a second referendum, as this shit will never pass.

The two main problems with calling for a general election are:
1. we are quite likely to end up with a parliament much like the one we have now and if Labour fails to win a majority we are right back to where we are now, and
2. Corbyn will campaign to leave the EU contrary to the views of most Labour voters and the overwhelming majority of Labour party members.

That is why I think we need a second referendum.

553 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:22 pm

T.R.O.Y


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
Point 2 - this is not contrary to the most important factor though - the vote itself. And politicians do have a responsibility to try and uphold democracy.

If they fail to, it comes back to the people.

554 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:31 pm

xmiles

xmiles
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
@T.R.O.Y wrote:Point 2 - this is not contrary to the most important factor though - the vote itself. And politicians do have a responsibility to try and uphold democracy.

If they fail to, it comes back to the people.

What is undemocratic about giving people a vote now that we know the terms on which we would leave the EU. Surely that is the very definition of it coming "back to the people".

555 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:57 pm

Hipster_Nebula

Hipster_Nebula
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Forced to use food banks.

Good god the guff he talks.

I love the cuts to awe struck people in the crowd mesmerized by his oratory brilliance.

556 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:47 pm

Norpig

Norpig
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Some people have no other option than to use foodbanks and that's wholly the fault of the austerity cuts implemented by the Tories, That foodbanks even exist is a national disgrace.

557 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:48 pm

wanderlust


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
To keep a final referendum simple, two questions:

1) Leave EU Yes or No?

2) If the majority vote to leave, May's deal or No Deal?

That just about covers the realistic options I reckon.

558 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:57 pm

Hipster_Nebula

Hipster_Nebula
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Norpig wrote:Some people have no other option than to use foodbanks and that's wholly the fault of the austerity cuts implemented by the Tories, That foodbanks even exist is a national disgrace.

I work in social services in Scotland. 

It isn't so black and white I'm afraid.

559 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:58 pm

Hipster_Nebula

Hipster_Nebula
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@wanderlust wrote:To keep a final referendum simple, two questions:

1) Leave EU Yes or No?

2) If the majority vote to leave, May's deal or No Deal?

That just about covers the realistic options I reckon.

I won't vote again. And millions of others won't either.

What's the point of voting if results are ignored?

560 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:10 pm

wanderlust


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Hipster_Nebula wrote:
@wanderlust wrote:To keep a final referendum simple, two questions:

1) Leave EU Yes or No?

2) If the majority vote to leave, May's deal or No Deal?

That just about covers the realistic options I reckon.

I won't vote again. And millions of others won't either.

What's the point of voting if results are ignored?
I hardly think the partial referendum vote has been ignored. Au contraire, we have a bunch of politicians trying to railroad the country down the road to purgatory on the back of it in pursuit of their own political interests.
But now that the lies have been exposed, and the realistic options are on the table for the first time why should the country be denied a vote?

We were given a vote on whether or not we wanted 70 million Turks to move to England and whether or not we should give the NHS £350 million a week neither of which were ever going to happen, so why should we not be given a vote on things that might actually happen?

561 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:10 pm

xmiles

xmiles
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
@Norpig wrote:Some people have no other option than to use foodbanks and that's wholly the fault of the austerity cuts implemented by the Tories, That foodbanks even exist is a national disgrace.

Ironically it then provides Tory MPs with photo opportunities to be seen looking "compassionately" at the people getting food from the foodbanks.

Even more ironically some of these people probably voted for them.  :facepalm:

562 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:12 pm

xmiles

xmiles
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
@Hipster_Nebula wrote:
@wanderlust wrote:To keep a final referendum simple, two questions:

1) Leave EU Yes or No?

2) If the majority vote to leave, May's deal or No Deal?

That just about covers the realistic options I reckon.

I won't vote again. And millions of others won't either.

What's the point of voting if results are ignored?

What like the original vote to join the EU?

563 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:25 pm

Norpig

Norpig
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
If millions of people (i presume leave voters) don't vote again in a second referendum then they will lose so it's in their best interests to vote surely?

564 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:31 pm

wanderlust


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Norpig wrote:If millions of people (i presume leave voters) don't vote again in a second referendum then they will lose so it's in their best interests to vote surely?
Not necessarily seeing as there's always a possibility that Leave voters are pissed off they were lied to in the first place and what they were voting for was never realistic or achievable or was based on scaremongering that has proved to be unwarranted. I certainly know loads of Leave voters who would now vote to stay in.

565 Re: Brexit negotiations on Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:39 pm

Hipster_Nebula

Hipster_Nebula
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Norpig wrote:If millions of people (i presume leave voters) don't vote again in a second referendum then they will lose so it's in their best interests to vote surely?

It's in everyone's best interest not to vote for any party or person currently in the house of commons.

566 Re: Brexit negotiations on Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:02 am

wanderlust


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@Hipster_Nebula wrote:
@Norpig wrote:If millions of people (i presume leave voters) don't vote again in a second referendum then they will lose so it's in their best interests to vote surely?

It's in everyone's best interest not to vote for any party or person currently in the house of commons.
I sort of agree, but Brexit isn't a party issue. 
And if in a general election there were large scale abstentions, somebody would get elected anyway so it's not a viable strategy for change.

567 Re: Brexit negotiations on Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:18 am

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin
@wanderlust wrote:
@Hipster_Nebula wrote:
@Norpig wrote:If millions of people (i presume leave voters) don't vote again in a second referendum then they will lose so it's in their best interests to vote surely?

It's in everyone's best interest not to vote for any party or person currently in the house of commons.
I sort of agree, but Brexit isn't a party issue. 
And if in a general election there were large scale abstentions, somebody would get elected anyway so it's not a viable strategy for change.

Of course it is a party issue!!!

We would even have had a referendum never mind Brexit if it wasn't for Cameron trying to squash the Euro sceptics inside his party.

Even then we wouldn't have got Brexit if Boris hadn't become the figure head of the Leave campaign because he thought he would play a bit of inter party politics by planning to lose the referendum but scoop the Eurosceptic vote within his party for a leadership bid.

As for Corbyn he's playing party politics by not fighting against Brexit but biding his time until after it and win the next General Election because the mood of the public as changed against it!

It's all to do with party politics - the vast majority of MP's voted Remain - yet they are kept in line with their party whips!

Even you should be able to see that?

568 Re: Brexit negotiations on Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:17 am

Dunkels King

Dunkels King
Nicolas Anelka
Nicolas Anelka
@Hipster_Nebula wrote:
@Norpig wrote:If millions of people (i presume leave voters) don't vote again in a second referendum then they will lose so it's in their best interests to vote surely?

It's in everyone's best interest not to vote for any party or person currently in the house of commons.

I couldn't agree more Smile

569 Re: Brexit negotiations on Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:20 am

Dunkels King

Dunkels King
Nicolas Anelka
Nicolas Anelka
@Sluffy wrote:
@wanderlust wrote:
@Hipster_Nebula wrote:
@Norpig wrote:If millions of people (i presume leave voters) don't vote again in a second referendum then they will lose so it's in their best interests to vote surely?

It's in everyone's best interest not to vote for any party or person currently in the house of commons.
I sort of agree, but Brexit isn't a party issue. 
And if in a general election there were large scale abstentions, somebody would get elected anyway so it's not a viable strategy for change.

Of course it is a party issue!!!

We would even have had a referendum never mind Brexit if it wasn't for Cameron trying to squash the Euro sceptics inside his party.

Even then we wouldn't have got Brexit if Boris hadn't become the figure head of the Leave campaign because he thought he would play a bit of inter party politics by planning to lose the referendum but scoop the Eurosceptic vote within his party for a leadership bid.

As for Corbyn he's playing party politics by not fighting against Brexit but biding his time until after it and win the next General Election because the mood of the public as changed against it!

It's all to do with party politics - the vast majority of MP's voted Remain - yet they are kept in line with their party whips!

Even you should be able to see that?

The trouble is that Corbyn embraces Brexit despite the fact that a high proportion of Labour voters would prefer to remain in the EU. So at this moment in time you could say Brexit isn't a party issue because the Leaders of the only electable Parties both want Brexit (even though one of them doesn't really).

570 Re: Brexit negotiations on Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:24 am

Hipster_Nebula

Hipster_Nebula
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Labour members want to stay in the EU but is that the same as labour voters?

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