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The Independent Group - Six MPs quit The Independant Group!

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boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@xmiles wrote:
@boltonbonce wrote:We've had the referendum. What's the point of another one? It was flawed from the start, but it's done.

Leavers won. So leave.

So if someone sold you something under false pretences you would just accept that you had been robbed and let it go?

The point is pretty obvious - to get it reversed but if there is another vote to leave then that unfortunately is it. Nobody knows what those who voted leave thought they were voting for because the leave campaign promised all sorts of impossible and contradictory things. If a second referendum was held we would all know the terms.
You can't keep having votes until you get he result you want. I'm a remainer, but the mugs who bought the lies now have to pay the price. Unfortunately, we've got to pay it with them.
Anything else will lead to riots in the streets.

T.R.O.Y


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
There are no democratic justifications for another vote. A soft Brexit is far and away the best option left.

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
At least my own MP is doing the right thing.

The Independent Group - Six MPs quit The Independant Group! - Page 2 DzrsgKxWsAAA72v

wanderlust


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
@T.R.O.Y wrote:There are no democratic justifications for another vote. A soft Brexit is far and away the best option left.
But a soft Brexit which many Leave voters voted for isn't an option any more since May - without either consensus or mandate - took leaving the EU but staying in the Single Market and Customs Union off the table.

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Be interesting to see if any more jump ship. And not just from Labour.

T.R.O.Y


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
@wanderlust wrote:
@T.R.O.Y wrote:There are no democratic justifications for another vote. A soft Brexit is far and away the best option left.
But a soft Brexit which many Leave voters voted for isn't an option any more since May - without either consensus or mandate - took leaving the EU but staying in the Single Market and Customs Union off the table.

I know, that’s why getting May out and Labour in is the best chance of us getting that deal.

xmiles

xmiles
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
@T.R.O.Y wrote:Polls are all well and good, but Labour’s performance in general elections is what counts. And their last performance shows how close they are. 

700 cases of anti semitism is a tiny portion of the membership. Maybe you’re right and more could be done, but this is categorically not a racist or anti Semitic party (I would not vote for it if it was). The issue is ramped up to attack the leadership. They’ve left because they don’t like the direction of the party and the left wing policies. A shame to lose anyone from the party, but life goes on.

It is normal for the opposition to lead the government in opinion polls especially midterm. We have so many things failing now due to Tory austerity policies and yet Labour are unable to take any kind of lead in the polls. Labour did better than expected in the last election because of large numbers of younger voters believing in Corbyn but these are the very same people who have explicitly said they won't vote for Labour if Corbyn backs brexit. Labour is continuing to lose members because of Corbyn's stance on brexit: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiDx57u2MXgAhVYShUIHbMYBzIQFjAEegQICRAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fpolitics%2F2019%2Ffeb%2F05%2Flabour-membership-falls-10-amid-unrest-over-brexit-stance&usg=AOvVaw3lFTpppOk39_xQeHRFfBqg

I agree with you that the Labour party is not itself antisemitic and that the issue is used by the right wing but Corbyn needs to do far more to address the problem than he has. His lack of action has already caused a lot of damage which could have been easily avoided if he were not so stupid.

xmiles

xmiles
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
@boltonbonce wrote:
@xmiles wrote:
@boltonbonce wrote:We've had the referendum. What's the point of another one? It was flawed from the start, but it's done.

Leavers won. So leave.

So if someone sold you something under false pretences you would just accept that you had been robbed and let it go?

The point is pretty obvious - to get it reversed but if there is another vote to leave then that unfortunately is it. Nobody knows what those who voted leave thought they were voting for because the leave campaign promised all sorts of impossible and contradictory things. If a second referendum was held we would all know the terms.
You can't keep having votes until you get he result you want. I'm a remainer, but the mugs who bought the lies now have to pay the price. Unfortunately, we've got to pay it with them.
Anything else will lead to riots in the streets.

I am not saying keep having a vote until we get the result I want. I am saying have a vote when people are given the facts about what their vote means. That is what democracy means.

The idea that having a second referendum is antidemocratic is just complete nonsense. We had a vote when we joined the EU yet nobody claimed it was antidemocratic when Cameron held his referendum.

And I don't think it is acceptable to say we can't have a vote because some right wing thugs will possibly riot. Is that democratic?

xmiles

xmiles
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
@T.R.O.Y wrote:
@wanderlust wrote:
@T.R.O.Y wrote:There are no democratic justifications for another vote. A soft Brexit is far and away the best option left.
But a soft Brexit which many Leave voters voted for isn't an option any more since May - without either consensus or mandate - took leaving the EU but staying in the Single Market and Customs Union off the table.

I know, that’s why getting May out and Labour in is the best chance of us getting that deal.

There is zero chance of a general election being held unless May choses to call one.

And what makes you think that Labour would win an election with Corbyn leading the party and at least seven former members standing and splitting the Labour vote?

Here is what people currently think about Corbyn:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjYxLXc3MXgAhXsRxUIHX5IAgUQFjAGegQICRAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thejc.com%2Fnews%2Fuk-news%2Fone-third-of-voters-believe-labour-leader-jeremy-corbyn-is-antisemitic-new-yougov-poll-reveals-1.480126&usg=AOvVaw1zycbfIc4Hp2C7UVN9Yy4f

T.R.O.Y


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
We had the same polls in the run up to the last general election. Forgive me if I don’t hang off they’re every word. 

You’re welcome to your opinion, as I am to mine. Neither of us knows any better than the other as to what would happen at a GE, whenever that may be.

xmiles

xmiles
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
@T.R.O.Y wrote:We had the same polls in the run up to the last general election. Forgive me if I don’t hang off they’re every word. 

You’re welcome to your opinion, as I am to mine. Neither of us knows any better than the other as to what would happen at a GE, whenever that may be.

You are a lot more optimistic about the prospects for Labour than me but an even more basic point is that Labour are not presently in a position to force a general election so it is not currently an option.

T.R.O.Y


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
Neither is a people’s vote.

xmiles

xmiles
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
@T.R.O.Y wrote:Neither is a people’s vote.

I am not clear what you mean by this.

I know you are opposed to a "people's vote" or second referendum as I prefer to call it but surely a general election is indeed a people's vote.

T.R.O.Y


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
I’m saying a second referendum is not currently an option.

Hipster_Nebula

Hipster_Nebula
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
They realised they couldn't reform from within and had to break away.... Oh the irony.

xmiles

xmiles
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
@T.R.O.Y wrote:I’m saying a second referendum is not currently an option.

OK.

I think a second referendum is unlikely but a general election as even more unlikely unless May calls one.

xmiles

xmiles
Youri Djorkaeff
Youri Djorkaeff
@Hipster_Nebula wrote:They realised they couldn't reform from within and had to break away.... Oh the irony.

Indeed.

gloswhite

gloswhite
Jay Jay Okocha
Jay Jay Okocha
@T.R.O.Y wrote:
700 cases of anti semitism is a tiny portion of the membership. 

Are you really saying this is an acceptable number of incidents, and can be ignored as its only a 'tiny' portion ? What number of incidents do you think should be the starting point for a serious response from the Labour party ?
Do you think the same numbers would be accepted were they against the Muslim religion ?

wessy

wessy
Andy Walker
Andy Walker
I am sad over this split because you can see the Tories using it for political gain, i do think for reasons stated that they should have to stand for reelection. I voted remain but for reasons of democracy i feel you have to carry out the will of the people. 

The Anti semitism question first of all i feel sad that this is even an issue and ashamed that my party have let it become an issue.

 But what is the definition of anti semitic behaviour ? If it means bad mouthing or bullying Jewish people then that is shocking and needs to be stopped, however if you have an opinion that is not favourable to the state of Israel then surely that is not anti semitic but your opinion.

Hipster_Nebula

Hipster_Nebula
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Iran doesn't think Israel has a right to exist and thinks it should be destroyed. Corbyn went on their state TV for money and nodded his head as callers phoned in to slag off Jews.

Hes for the many though and definitely a lifelong anti racist. What a man.

T.R.O.Y


Andy Walker
Andy Walker
@gloswhite wrote:
@T.R.O.Y wrote:
700 cases of anti semitism is a tiny portion of the membership. 

Are you really saying this is an acceptable number of incidents, and can be ignored as its only a 'tiny' portion ? What number of incidents do you think should be the starting point for a serious response from the Labour party ?
Do you think the same numbers would be accepted were they against the Muslim religion ?

Spare me, that’s not even close to what I was saying and you know it. 

When an MP says the Labour Party is racist and antisemitic (as one did today) that implies it’s a systematic issue - and this clearly is not.

wanderlust


Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
It's still unclear as to the exact motives behind the split.

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Cajunboy

Cajunboy
Andy Walker
Andy Walker
I bet those seven dwarfs are cringing now!

Hipster_Nebula

Hipster_Nebula
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
They have no star power.

If Yvette cooper or David milliband were to join this group labour would be relegated to a fringe movement like UKIP.

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Who?

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Another one gone. Cool

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
Three Tories have joined now. Very Happy

Hipster_Nebula

Hipster_Nebula
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
About as conservative as chairman Mao these three.

Also repeating the lie that the Tory's have "lurched to the right" a simple read of the most left wing Tory manifesto for 50 years quite clearly proves that to be bollocks.

But then soubry does have form for talking that.

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse
I see this as decluttering. If they form a party, what could they call it?

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