Bolton Wanderers Football Club Fan Forum for all BWFC Supporters.


You are not connected. Please login or register

Wigan in Administration

+21
Growler
Sluffy
Ten Bobsworth
xmiles
okocha
Cajunboy
finlaymcdanger
Banks of the Croal
sunlight
gloswhite
MartinBWFC
luckyPeterpiper
BoltonTillIDie
wessy
boltonbonce
Norpig
wanderlust
observer
RangersDave
Boggersbelief
Bollotom2014
25 posters

Go to page : Previous  1 ... 22 ... 40, 41, 42

Go down  Message [Page 42 of 42]

821Wigan in Administration - Page 42 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Thu Jun 08 2023, 19:39

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

W63, thanks for your reply but I think you've lost sight of the main issue - namely WAFC needs to find a new owner as soon as they can.

It is hard to see at this moment who would want to be, or rather who has the money, can pass the EFL tests and still would want to be!

I strongly suspect Danson could - but would he want to?

The ownership of Wigan FC basically is set up under three companies - there is their holding company (head quarters if you will) which is named Phoenix 2021 (think of it as being similar to our FV Whites Ltd).  The football club is another company (same with us - ours is called FVWL Football Ltd - bit of a stupid name - but that's what it is called), Wigan's stadium (which is part owned by Wigan Council) is the third separate company of the three.

Normally you would expect one buyer to purchase all three companies - but what if no one can - at least before next season starts?

I would suggest Wigan Rugby would want some sort of security over having a place to play and therefore might be interested in buying the company that owns the stadium.

That would make buying the club company cheaper for someone else - but would also create a problem at the same time in not owning a ground to play on.

So could Wigan rugby form a partnership with someone out there to jointly buy the stadium and the pitch (in which case they would BOTH be owners of the stadium AND WAFC, or would Wigan Rugby buy the stadium, someone else buy the club and the club become the tenants at the stadium - in which case everything needs to be formally separated from each other - so no shared facilities and economies of scale that you were suggesting previously.

If NO ONE wants to buy the club would Wigan Rugby be the purchaser of the last resort and save them from extinction - and if so, they would face all the management problems that I outlined above.

At the end of the day WAFC is loss making and currently the stadium is too.

The question then is why would Wigan rugby take on not one but two loss making ventures - it doesn't make any business sense for them to do.

I guess they do need somewhere to play and the council may play some part in facilitating that - maybe by increasing their ownership share in the stadium possibly?

I can't though make out a financial case for them wanting to buy the football club.

Maybe Danson would do it on a personal basis - apparently he is rich enough - but would he want to?

Who knows but I expect a few unexpected twists and turns with this saga over the coming weeks and months.

822Wigan in Administration - Page 42 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Fri Jun 09 2023, 13:50

Whitesince63


Andy Walker
Andy Walker

I don’t think anyone’s lost sight of the main issue Sluffy, of course it’s for them to find a new owner asap. As you’ve pointed out, that will be no easy matter because there are both the football and rugby interests to consider. I’m not sure that other than somewhere to play, Danson and the other Warriors owners are bothered about WAFC at all and if they had been then why didn’t they buy them last time out of administration? I think the Tics fans are just pinning their hopes on that without any factual information to confirm or deny it so if that’s the case it’s either fizzy pop man or just pop unless a white knight suddenly appears but given the problems you’ve outlined, like you I’d have to question why they would?

823Wigan in Administration - Page 42 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Fri Jun 09 2023, 15:46

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

What I was trying to say in my last few posts was to try to answer your point that both the rugby and the football should share the costs of mutual services they both use - the stadium which is played on by both and things such as medical staff, that they provide separate from each other.

I've tried to explain that this can only be done two ways, the first being the rugby buying the football club under one ownership, or the rugby and football club remaining separate entities with the rugby club being the owner of the ground and renting it out (and possibly renting out other services such as medical services, as well).

I've tried to point out the extreme difficulties that the 'one ownership' model would face - namely the Rugby owners - whose trading account would be miniscule in comparison to the football clubs, who they would now own (either outright or in partnership with another group of investors).

Logically if the football club ends up with no buyers, then the rugby club will need to consider how that effects them - most notably on where they will play.

It may be they would want to remain at the DW and if so that might require them to buy the stadium.

As Phoenix 2021 (WAFC) has basically two assets, the stadium and the football club, then a separate sale of the stadium would mean it would cost someone less just to buy the remaining asset - the club (otherwise they would have had to buy the club AND the stadium - or I guess just buy the club and relocate somewhere else - eg like MK Dons did).

It could be if it got to such a stage that some sort of local consortium could somehow scrape together enough to buy the club?

If such a thing didn't happen then it would be up to some wealthy benefactor such as Danson to buy the football club simply to save it (at his own personal cost).

The question is why he would want to do that if he isn't much of a football fan?

I think there are quite a few twists and turns though however until such a scenario comes into play - if it does at all.


Going off at a tangent, and underlining a point I made many moons ago, it also shows the absolute futility of clubs having Supporters Trust's as they simply have nothing like the money to save clubs of the stature of even Wigan, when the shit hits the fan.

I also find it somewhat jaw dropping that the good and the mighty from our ST have done sweet FA to support their fellow fans at both Bury and now Wigan (both our immediate neighbours - in fact doesn't one of our ST Board actually live in Wigan?) in trying to save their clubs from extinction!  

So much for mutual support groups - more like I'm alright Jack and fuck everyone else!

825Wigan in Administration - Page 42 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Mon Jun 12 2023, 14:21

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

The article above is behind a paywall but a Wigan fan kindly posted it up for everyone to see, which you can find here -

https://forums.vitalfootball.co.uk/threads/the-future-of-the-club.131044/page-118#post-3821488

It is in two parts and quite a long read.

Most of what it says is known about and it goes into quite a bit of past history but the following is what is news to me.

The wages have still not been paid - two weeks late now.

Johal said he would pay the wages outstanding - his money never turned up.

HMRC are owed £2.5m already (I assume if when the outstanding wages are eventually paid, they will be owed more tax and NIC's).

The article confirms the current wages to be £1.88m per month.

Danson has been in talks to take over the club but that MUST include ownership of the stadium.

A company called Federal Sports Alliance based in Florida is apparently looking to buy a English club but the article suggests that Wigan doesn't fit its brief.

The article states

"It is understood Wigan need at least £5million of investment to get through to July and that is why at this stage there are concerns over administration — which brings further points deductions — or even worse, liquidation if they can’t find a buyer".

I read that as Wigan needing someone to put in £5m before the end of June - less than 3 weeks away.

Another quote is this -

“The only thing that can save the club right now is funds going in,” says one well-placed source, speaking on the grounds of anonymity to protect relationships. “If they don’t, then it’s the patience of the staff, a creditor or the crown (HMRC) that will decide. The crown have been patient but I don’t think they’ll be patient forever. It’s just a mess.”



So it looks to me that the deal will be Danson offering to put up the £5m in return for the stadium and club - that I think will only cover the outstanding wages £1.88m and the 125% bond required of £2.35m - or if the bond is waived by the EFL in some way(?) the £2.5m owed to HMRC.

If not the £2.5m will still be outstanding.

There are ongoing costs of next months wages £1.88m and next seasons wages at presumably £1.88m or so (not too many players have been released) if no relegation reductions are written into the existing players contracts.

There may well be other unknown debts the club has run up to deal with too.

Up to Danson though if he wants to be the White Knight, he certainly seems to have the personal wealth to do so.

Maybe he is a football fan as well as being a rugby man?

If so maybe Wigan have fallen on their feet once again...!

826Wigan in Administration - Page 42 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Mon Jun 12 2023, 14:56

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

Well it seems the countdown has now officially started!

Nixon reporting that HMRC have issued a Winding Up Order.



Tbh I'm no longer sure of their status anymore, didn't they become a secured creditor recently I think, but what does that mean in practice in regards to football clubs?

Does it mean that even in Administration the football club has to pay the full amount owed to the taxman rather than 25p in the £.

If so that's more costs to Danson (or whoever may buy WAFC) to find whether they go the Admin route or not.

827Wigan in Administration - Page 42 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Mon Jun 12 2023, 15:11

Norpig

Norpig
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

i'm off to buy more jelly and ice cream for when they do go bust  Very Happy

828Wigan in Administration - Page 42 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Mon Jun 12 2023, 15:18

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

Norpig wrote:i'm off to buy more jelly and ice cream for when they do go bust  Very Happy

I would wait a while yet.

I'm not sure they will with Danson in the picture.

Depends what sort of a soft spot he has for the football because he certainly has the personal wealth to keep it going if he has the mind to.

829Wigan in Administration - Page 42 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Mon Jun 12 2023, 15:49

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

BBC reporter confirming court date - so about 7 weeks to sort things out I would imagine.

830Wigan in Administration - Page 42 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Mon Jun 12 2023, 19:07

Whitesince63


Andy Walker
Andy Walker

I just can’t see why Mike Danson would want to buy the football club with all the problems it has if all he’s concerned about is where the Warriors play. Surely if he wanted a football club he’d be better off looking somewhere without all the baggage. In fact he doesn’t even own the Warriors just a 25% stake so why 100% of a football club that’s already starting on minus points next year, little sell on potential from existing players and a high wage bill of players with no resale value. For an intelligent businessman it doesn’t stack up when he could probably do a deal with Sharon to use the TS going forward?

831Wigan in Administration - Page 42 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Mon Jun 12 2023, 19:52

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

Whitesince63 wrote:I just can’t see why Mike Danson would want to buy the football club with all the problems it has if all he’s concerned about is where the Warriors play. Surely if he wanted a football club he’d be better off looking somewhere without all the baggage. In fact he doesn’t even own the Warriors just a 25% stake so why 100% of a football club that’s already starting on minus points next year, little sell on potential from existing players and a high wage bill of players with no resale value. For an intelligent businessman it doesn’t stack up when he could probably do a deal with Sharon to use the TS going forward?

The thing is W63 we can only view things from our own perspective and experiences in life, we constantly make the mistake of not considering that others have very much different perspectives and experience and view things differently - not least because they have the money to change things and that puts them into a different world to our own.

Maybe he can see a profit where we only see a loss, if you will.

It reminds me a bit of that famous question of Mrs Merton (Caroline Aherne) to Debbie McGee - What first attracted you to the millionaire Paul Daniels(!) (meaning it wasn't his looks was it!), so maybe the way WAFC 'looks' financially is irrelevant to Danson in a similar sort of way, if you get what I'm trying to say?

Apparently Danson is a cold hearted billionaire who made his money by spotting a business is underappreciated, buying them, building them up and selling on for a vast profit - see the quote below...

Regardless of his personality, the data guru has serious wealth behind him. And he has a history of pouncing for deals when assets are depreciated or under-value, and then making a motza.

(I had to look up the word motza - a large sum of money, especially as won in gambling).

Maybe he's looking at all this from an angle that we can't appreciate ourselves - I often wonder why anyone would buy a football (I've still no clue why Sharon is here) but maybe they see things from their perspectives and experiences that do make financial sense to them.

Maybe Danson is playing around with the idea of buying Wigan for peanuts to him, pump a small fraction of his wealth into it and enjoy the fun of taking it up, like the Hollywood stars and Wrexham are doing?

Danson is a billionaire, which means that just 1% of his wealth equals £10m.

Who knows, maybe he won't buy it and walk away, maybe he will just buy it and let it just tick over until it can become self sustainable, maybe he will go for it and play real life club owner - maybe he is just doing it out of the goodness of his heart because he can.

The £5m, £10m or £15m, or whatever it is to own it (and the stadium!), clear its debts and pay for all next season is just pennies to him - so maybe he sees something that mere (penniless) mortals like we are (in comparison) don't!

Anyway a biography of Danson (including the quote I posted above).

WHO IS PROSPECTIVE WIGAN OWNER MIKE DANSON?

Could the Wigan Warriors have a new majority owner in the shape of billionaire businessman and data king Michael – ‘Mike’ – Danson at some point in the near future?

Newspaper League Express reported that Danson is set to buy the club from Ian Lenegan, valuing it at around £10 million. Danson of course bought a 25% stake in the Super League club last year.

The Warriors have denied the story on Monday morning, Lenegan stating strongly: “There are no current plans for the Lenegan family to relinquish control of Lenegan Investments and, hence, Wigan Warriors”.

But just who is this tech entrepreneur Danson?

Well, The Times ranks him as the 128th richest person in the UK with an estimated worth of £1.17 billion. Danson was born in Wigan and raised in the nearby town of Bury. He attended Bolton Grammar school and Oxford University, where he received a Master of Arts degree, and then became a management consultant.

In 1990 he founded Datamonitor, an online information company. A decade later it was floated on the London Stock Exchange, and in 2007 it was sold to Informa for £507 million.

Meanwhile, Danson went on to co-found the data analytics and consulting company GlobalData, of which he is currently CEO and an executive director. This new company then acquired the Datamonitor’s Financial, Consumer, MarketLine and Verdict businesses from Informa in 2015 for just £25 million, making a gigantic profit.

The Financial Times described it as a “masterstroke”.

Danson is notoriously media-shy and keeps a low profile.

In 2018 the website Flashes and Flames described him this way: “Even insiders who are quick to identify his workaday absence of emotional empathy’ admire his analytical skills and deal-making. He doesn’t give interviews and doesn’t much care what people say.

“But behind the harsh epithets is the man who quietly built Datamonitor in his north-west London apartment and financed it from thousands of pounds run up on multiple credit cards. Danson personally made almost £200m from the sale of Datamonitor, right at the top of the market.”

In an interview with the FT in 2009 he said: “I know media, I know a bit about property, I know a bit about cash.”

Danson, reportedly a Manchester United fan, has also ventured into the world of philanthropy. In 2010 he started The Danson Foundation, a charity set up with a donation of £10 milion.

Run [by] his wife Helen, the Foundation helps fund education for individuals from poor backgrounds. It also arranges 30 to 40 internships each year at companies Danson owns or is associated with.

He has shown left-wing or left of centre tendencies. His Progressive Media Group, which was founded in 2007, owns the New Statesman and Press Gazette media brands.

The New Statesmen is a left-leaning political magazine that has been around for more than 100 years, while Press Gazette is the industry magazine for journalists.

Despite a history in publishing Danson, who lives in London and owns Michael Jackson’s former New York mansion, doesn’t like the limelight. In 2010 The Times wrote: “He is not a typical media mogul. Uncomfortable in interviews and quietly spoken.”

Regardless of his personality, the data guru has serious wealth behind him. And he has a history of pouncing for deals when assets are depreciated or under-value, and then making a motza.

It will be interesting to watch in the months ahead whether Danson will seek to increase his stage in Wigan, one of Super League’s flagships, at a time when the competition is in transition and crying out for new investment.

https://everythingrugbyleague.com/who-is-prospective-wigan-owner-mike-danson/

833Wigan in Administration - Page 42 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Wed Jun 14 2023, 18:36

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

CLUB STATEMENT | A COMPANY BACKED BY MIKE DANSON ACQUIRES WIGAN ATHLETIC FOOTBALL CLUB

Wigan Athletic is delighted to announce the following update regarding the Club’s ownership:

A new company backed by Mike Danson has today completed the acquisition of 100% of Wigan Athletic Football Club.

All requisite clearances have been obtained from the English Football League “EFL”. A new board, along with a Chief Executive of the Club will be announced in due course. First Team Manager Shaun Maloney, will remain at the Club.

Funds have been paid into the Club to cover all outstanding debt. All players and staff will be paid immediately, along with other creditors.

The Club wishes to pay thanks to Mr Abdulrahman Al Jasmi and Mr Talal Al Hammad for their commitment to the sale process and for saving the Club from administration back in 2021. Thanks also go to Wigan Council, Lisa Nandy - Labour MP for Wigan - and the Official Wigan Athletic Supporters Club.

Thank you to the EFL who have worked tirelessly under strict time constraints to ratify the sale.

A statement from Mike Danson said:

“I am delighted to become involved in Wigan Athletic Football Club. I was born in Wigan, I grew up locally and the community of the town is close to my heart.

"I want to recognise that the Club has a hugely important part to play in the local community, not just for players, but for fans, employees and all its suppliers, business partners and numerous community groups. We have worked hard to provide the EFL with a realistic financial plan to stabilise operations. We look forward to a fresh start for the Club and planning for the upcoming season.

"Many community and Club representatives including Lisa Nandy MP, David Molyneux, Executive Leader of Wigan Council and Alison McKenzie-Folan CEO of Wigan Council, along with the Official Wigan Athletic Supporters Club and the EFL, have worked extremely hard to bring about a positive conclusion to the Club’s recent troubles.

"Wigan Athletic and its fans have had a lot of uncertainty over recent years and the most important thing now is to give all stakeholders the opportunity to focus on the season ahead.”

Wigan Athletic First Team Manager, Shaun Maloney added:

“This news is fantastic for everyone associated with the Football Club and the town of Wigan.

"I want to pay thanks to Mr Danson and his team for all their hard work and perseverance. His vision and passion for the community have resonated strongly with all of us.

"I also want to pay tribute to the staff, supporters and of course, the players that have stuck with us through one of the Club’s most difficult times.

"We are all extremely confident of a sustainable and stable future and we are now excited to prepare for the 2023/24 season and beyond.”

https://wiganathletic.com/news/2023/june/14/club-statement-a-company-backed-by-mike-danson-acquires-wigan-athletic-football-club/

834Wigan in Administration - Page 42 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Wed Jun 14 2023, 22:18

Natasha Whittam

Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

I'm glad they've avoided major trouble. Wigan are our main rivals, I didn't want to lose that.

835Wigan in Administration - Page 42 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Wed Jun 14 2023, 23:03

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

Seems they were sold for £1 plus debts. - I'll explain later.

This conflicts a bit with Alan Myers above who said this previous owners got a very good deal and the sale was £25M






'Faz' pm Wigan Speyk who seems to know more than most states £9m was paid

9 mil including the wages and hmrc I was told by someone who would know 100%. Which is approx 5mil for the club and stadium.




Now what I think is that they are all talking about something slightly different to each other.

I imagine (indeed I'd even posted earlier on the thread) that it would most likely that someone would buy the club for a £1 PLUS DEBTS.

Therefore Kendrick is right in that only £1 was PAID to buy WAFC and stadium.

We know that two months wages of £1.9m and a HMRC for £2.5m are currently outstanding , so that is £6.3m - it is reasonable to assume other debts are owed that we don't know about - and I don't know if the 125% of wages bond for £2.3m will still have been required - so adding all those together a sum of £9m worth of debts sound reasonable to me - Which is the amount 'Faz' talks about.

I also believe that the EFL requires new owners to show proof of funds to run the club.  It is not unreasonable to think a sum of £25m was shown as proof of this and maybe as been thought to have been taken as the sum to buy the club by mistake?

I'm fairly confident that the sake will be for £1 plus debts and I would imagine debts totalling £9m would be close to the mark.

Obviously the new owners will have to fund the club from now on - assuming the wage bill remains the same at £1.9m x 13 pay days, then that would equal £24.7m - the amount Myers first stated.

It does look though that the new owner is looking to slash the wage bill for the season after - so I would imagine Wigan will have a decent side still for this year coming?



I would therefore be surprised if they significantly splash the cash to buy players in the summer, unless they aren't offering contracts for more than one season - as there is no point taking on big wages if they are committed to slashing costs - the largest cost being players wages!

That's how I see things anyway.

836Wigan in Administration - Page 42 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Thu Jun 15 2023, 22:23

Whitesince63


Andy Walker
Andy Walker

Good summary Sluffy it all fits but given the age and wages of many of their players I’d expect an attempt to get them off the books asap. If they’re only on one year left that may not be too difficult but I understand some still have two years left and they may be difficult to move on. In the meantime as you say, I wouldn’t expect them to be flashing the cash on either fees or wages this summer which will affect their capability this coming season. I’d expect them to be top half but I’d be very surprised at a push for the automatics, especially with an 8 point deficit, although I believe they’re appealing that so we’ll wait and see. I’m glad they’ve survived though, I have no love of them but I’d have hated to have seen another Bury and I’m looking forward to giving them two pastings this season.

837Wigan in Administration - Page 42 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Sun Jul 09 2023, 20:40

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

Quite an interesting point has occurred as to what does a player percentage sell on sale actually mean?

I post this here because...

Antonee Robinson: Fulham defender signs new long-term contract with Premier League club

Robinson, who signed for Fulham in 2020 for £2m from Wigan Athletic, had been linked with a move away from Craven Cottage.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/66139981

Apparently when Wigan sold Robinson the deal included something like a 20% sell on clause for anything over the £2m that Fulham bought him for - and before he signed his new contract Fulham had placed a £35m transfer price on his head - so that would have meant a windfall of around £6m to Wigan if he had been sold for that amount.

Ok I think we all understand that but what happens now he's signed a new contract?

Well one bloke on Latics Speyk believes nothing has changed...

Fazman...

No a sell on clause is tied to the player not the contract. If it was just the contract then there's nothing stopping clubs signing a player then giving them another contract to avoid paying the fee.
https://forums.vitalfootball.co.uk/threads/summer-transfer-thread.131518/page-45

Whilst one poster on WW believes the clause is for life!!!

Johnnyrotten...

Only if he moves.  If Gerrard had started at Tranmere and moved to Liverpool for £500k plus 20% of any future transfer fee, they get zilch, his improvement would be of no benefit to them.  Or if Scholes/Neville had started at Bury/Oldham same applies.  But someone like Danny Ings starts in Div 3 with Bournemouth, moves around loads and they potentially benefit from EVERY transfer fee.  Just doesn't seem right somehow.
https://www.wanderersways.com/forum/topic/95265-them-wigan-c-nts/page/101/#comment-2482141


Seems to me they are both wrong.

At the end of the day we are talking about a contract clause.

So what exactly has been sold?

It isn't Robinson himself - that would be slavery - so what is being sold is his registration with Wigan to Fulham.

Wigan and Fulham are the only parties to 'this' contract - so if Robinson (or rather his registration) is sold on to to another club Wigan's interest in Robinson ends - they are no longer a party to the transaction.

(Note when I state 'this' contract I'm talking about the contract in respect of the players change of registration. Robinson himself would have different contracts, an existing one about his personal terms whilst at Wigan - which he will terminate on leaving - and a new contract about his personal terms with Fulham when he signs for them)

So what happens when Robinson sees out his full contract with Fulham after his transfer from Wigan?

Then the contract is settled in full.

Therefore by signing a NEW contract with Fulham the sell on clause inserted by Wigan in his original contractual transfer from Wigan to Fulham becomes spent.  Fulham is no longer buying Robinson's registration from Wigan (for a consideration of £2m), they are now agreeing a contract between Robinson and themselves for him to be reregistered with them - (and quite possibly the technical reason as to why players receive signing on fees).

The reason why clubs can't buy a player with a sell on clause, then give them a new contact the following day without the sell on clause is because it is illegal - the buying club would simply have breached their contract with the selling club and would be taken to court for a remedy.

They can't arbitrarily change the terms of the contract without agreement from all parties to the contract.


Funny how so many people seem to have different understandings of the same thing?

I guess that's true in life generally though.

838Wigan in Administration - Page 42 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Thu Jul 27 2023, 23:33

BoltonTillIDie

BoltonTillIDie
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

On that back of Wigan’s off the field issues, 2 players terminated their contracts yesterday.  One of the players was then outed, by the tics fans, for cheating on his wife with a Wigan podcast host.  

Sponsored content



Back to top  Message [Page 42 of 42]

Go to page : Previous  1 ... 22 ... 40, 41, 42

Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum