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Bolton Nuts » BWFC » Wandering Minds » Derby County and other clubs - Administration Thread

Derby County and other clubs - Administration Thread

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Ten Bobsworth
Sluffy
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Whitesince63


Andy Walker
Andy Walker

Nobody wants to see any club go pop, especially not the likes of Derby so hopefully something can be done to save them. On the other hand we’ve always said that until a “big club” goes bust nothing will be done to change footballs finances. Let’s just hope it doesn’t come to that and despite the cost, Derby gets responsible and trustworthy new owners.

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

Quantuma says Derby has funds to last until end of the season

Derby County’s administrators Quantuma have told the EFL that the club has sufficient cash to last until the end of the 2021-22 season.

The EFL still says, however, there remain “a number of challenges” for Quantuma to overcome in order to name a preferred bidder to buy Derby.

On Wednesday, the EFL said the “very future” of Derby was under threat and it was “deeply concerned” by the lack of communication regarding Quantuma’s proof of funds and preferred bidder.

A day later, the EFL reported that it had had a meeting with Quantuma, who showed the league its proof of funds.

A statement from the EFL read: “At its meeting today (Thursday) the EFL Board considered the latest information provided by Quantuma (Derby County Administrators), including their forecast which showed the Club has sufficient cash to trade until the end of the season.

“It is clear that there are still a number of challenges to be dealt with by the administrators as they work to confirm the preferred bidder status and exit the club out of administration.”

Derby have been in administration for five months, following the departure of previous owner Mel Morris.

Quantuma said on Wednesday it hoped to “name the preferred bidder shortly”, to which the EFL responded with its concerns about proof of funds and sale of Derby.

Following Tuesday night’s 1-0 defeat by Cardiff City, Derby remain 23rd in the Championship table, eight points from safety having been deducted 21 points for entering administration.

https://theathletic.com/news/quantuma-says-derby-has-funds-to-last-until-end-of-the-season/SaYVig4kH4Mw/

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

I've stumbled across this today and although I don't necessarily agree with some of the stuff it is saying, there is still sufficient there to show how desperate things are looking for 'The Rams'!

The people who wrote this 'Black and White Together (BAWT) seem to be a 'rival' Supporters Trust to the 'formal' one 'Rams Trust'.  I don't know the ins and outs of the rivalry between the two groups but BAWT do actually seem to be involved in the consultation process with the Administrators (Quantuma).
https://www.dcfcbawt.org/about-us

MSD UK Holdings Ltd is a company that lent Derby a sum of money which is secured against their stadium (think of it a bit like the PBP (Mike James) loan that was taken out against the hotel (and still is!) which meant if the loan is defaulted MSD 'owns' the stadium*.

Storm Clouds Gathering?

On 11 February, Andrew Hosking, the joint administrator for Derby County described the agreement with Middlesbrough as a “huge breakthrough” and told fans that they would be “pleasantly surprised at the speed things will move at now”, expecting to be in a position to announce a preferred bidder within around 10 days. He subsequently told the Supporters Charter Group meeting which BAWT attended that there were no other hurdles in the way now. So why are we now 37 days from that statement and what might be causing the further hold-up?

The Administrator told us there were complexities with the bids that had been put in, without going into details on what those complexities were. So let’s start with what we would assume an ‘ideal bid’ would look like. What we have been told, is this would involve satisfying EFL rules regarding exiting administration and settling in full the debts to MSD UK Holdings which are secured on the ground.

The MSD debts were around £20m at the start of the administration process on 22 September. Football creditors totaled around £9.5m. Other creditors, including HMRC, added up to £54m, however, this did include £6.2m of season ticket and advance ticket sales, which should now be satisfied through to the end of the season.

EFL rules state clubs exiting administration must settle all footballing debts in full, ie 100%, and all other unsecured creditors at least 25%. So on a simple calculation that equates to £9.5m + £12m = £21.5m. This assumes HMRC will accept the minimum 25% payment, which given they have preferential status, is unconfirmed. On top of that, they would be Quantuma’s fees, estimated at £2.75m from the original submissions to Companies House, plus the additional borrowing needed to cover the ongoing monthly losses of the club. Quantuma quoted these at around £1.25m per month, so 6 months into the process, we can assume that to currently total £7.5m. So £21.5m + £2.75m + £7.5m = £31.75m to buy the club, satisfy EFL rules, and cover the costs of administration. This would result in the club being able to exit via Company Voluntary Agreement, no further penalties from the EFL and the new owner should be able to extend current players’ contracts and sign new players in the summer.

This does of course still leave the initial MSD debt and the ownership of the ground to be resolved. From Quantuma’s comments about MSD, Mel Morris, and the ground and comments BAWT has heard from other parties at various times, it seems Mr. Morris may be willing to relinquish the ground on full payment of the MSD debt, ie £20m. It also seems most interested parties are only interested in owning the club if they can own the ground too.

So the ‘full price’ for buying Derby County out of administration and bringing the ground back under the same ownership as the club is around £51.75m.

In recent days, football finance expert Kieran Maguire has identified Sunderland and Ipswich as comparable clubs for valuing a League One (let’s be realistic) club, and that valuation is around £30m – but they are both clubs who own their own grounds and who have a full roster of players, with a significantly lower number of players out of contract this summer than Derby. Even ignoring that last point, what would happen in one of Quantuma’s ‘interested parties’ was willing to pay £30m for the whole package – club and ground?


One extreme is Mr. Morris and MSD hold out for full settlement of their debt, £20m. That then leaves £10m to be split between Quantuma, MSD’s additional lending, and the unsecured creditors – amounts which total more than £30m above. Even if Quantuma and MSD were willing to take a ‘ haircut’ on their amounts, that still leaves very little for the unsecured creditors, and definitely wouldn’t see the club exit administration – even if creditors accepted such a deal – within EFL rules, so the club would start next season with a 15 point deduction. That wouldn’t make promotion impossible – Leeds achieved it in 2007/8 - but the need to build a virtually new squad at the same time likely makes next season a write-off on that basis, so any new owner then has to accept any losses in that season will not return any success.

The other extreme is that the £30m goes to the football club, Quantuma, and MSD’s additional lending. That then leaves nothing for MSD/Mel for the stadium. MSD’s debt is secured on the stadium, and unconfirmed rumors suggest also other guarantees from Mr. Morris. So in return for the non-fulfillment of the debts owed to it, MSD would take ownership of Pride Park, the buildings at Moor Farm also covered in its security package and other security pledged to the loan if they exist. This might save a new owner £20m, however, they still wouldn’t own the ground, so would be paying rent to MSD – a wild guess would be at a similar value to the assumed c10% interest DCFC was paying on the loan – or would have to negotiate a sale with MSD, ultimately still having to pay the £20m, or possibly more, in future.

So what if no one is willing to even pay c.£50m for the clean exit, or even c.£30m for the scenario above? And is this a likely outcome now? I’ll take the second question first.

Yes, with every day that passes liquidation is a step closer. Quantuma said the club is funded until the end of the season. That is now less than eight weeks away. Two weeks after that, players whose contracts are up in the summer are free to make pre-contract agreements with any other clubs. At that point, the value of Derby County falls to virtually nothing. Forget £50m or £30m, we are talking £3m-£5m.

If you can, after all, we’ve been through, put your emotions aside and think about the options for a hard-headed businessman's point of view. Pay £50m now for a club that is worth maybe £20m-25m? Pay £30m for a club of similar value, but with a season that might cost you another £5m-6m with promotion a virtual impossibility? Or wait and see if you can’t hoover up the remnants for a few million and hope the value of us as fans is worth investing in?

The big question around the last option though is what happens to Derby County as a football club. Well in liquidation the club ceases to exist, as happened with Rangers in Scotland and other clubs in England that have suffered the same fate. A new club can form, but it would need a different name – AFC Derby County or something similar. And then the crucial questions – what league would it go into?

Precedent suggests such clubs have to start at Step 5 or 6 of the non-league pyramid. Ilkeston and Macclesfield are two such local examples. In all honesty, not even £3m-5m is worth paying if that’s the case. And if that is the case, the new phoenix club won’t have a need for Pride Park for a good few years, so MSD will be sat on a white elephant worth virtually nothing. They could sell it for more commercial units, but the demolition costs will probably outweigh the sale price of such property. That last scenario gives fans some hope that interested parties may be playing brinksmanship with MSD and/or Mel Morris, hoping that they will prefer to get something rather than nothing and that they can get the whole package for a more reasonable amount, either with or without the 15 point penalty next season.

The unfortunate point to take however is that the lack of news flow is likely to continue right up until the last minute of the last hour – which looks like some time in May – and it could still end up in liquidation. This could be the calm before the biggest storm yet.

https://www.dcfcbawt.org/post/storm-clouds-gathering


*Fwiw I tried to check out a few things to confirm for myself how accurate all what was said actually was.

I couldn't quite get to the bottom of who actually owns the stadium though?

The 'talk' seems to be that it is Mel Morris but I could pin this down as such.

The stadium seems to be owned by Derby County Stadium Ltd and the owners of DCS Ltd (see July 2015 Annual Return) seem to be Gellaw 101 Ltd.

Gellaw seems to have a significant owner (see Sept 2016 Confirmation Statement) being Global Derby UK Ltd

Global Derby UK Ltd were compulsory struck off on the 8th Feb, 2022!
https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/06442121/filing-history

Before they were struck off Sevco 5113 Ltd took significant ownership (see 24th October 2018 entry)
https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/06442121/filing-history

Sevco 5113 is owned by Gellaw newco 205 (See Aug 2019 Notification)
https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/09740505/filing-history

Finally Gellaw newco is indeed shown to be owned by Mel Morris!
https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/11420465/filing-history

The thing is though is that the 'chain' of ownership seems to have been broken recently with one of the companies being struck off!


I thought I'd have a quick look from the other way around namely where has MSD secured its loan against which seem to be against the club...
https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/00049139/charges

...the last of these charges being made on the 25th Nov, 2021 - prior to the strike off above.

I'm assuming MSD earlier charge dated 6th August, 2020 is the one that covers the stadium - but I'm at a bit of a loss to who owns the stadium currently because as far as I can figure out the chain of ownership I've outlined above seems to suggest that no one no longer does since Global Derby was struck off?

I guess I must be wrong otherwise I would have assumed something would have been said about the strike off and its impact 0n all of this?

..dunno..

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

Funny goings on at Rochdale if anybody are interested in reading about them.

Matt Southall, who was at the side of Bassini when he was sniffing around our club, is mentioned in this tale too!

They wanted control of the club - but the fans weren’t about to let that happen
The bloody battle to save a 115-year-old institution.

https://manchestermill.co.uk/p/they-wanted-control-of-the-club-but?s=r&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&utm_source=direct

Derby County and other clubs - Administration Thread - Page 2 EKiK7CfW4AAaf3Q
Southall and Bassini

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

It's so difficult for clubs to stay viable these days. Smaller clubs struggle to make ends meet when balancing the success needed to keep the fans coming with the cost of running the club. Bigger clubs just want to consolidate their market share and the very big clubs have investors who seek to make massive profits e.g. those in the failed European Super League project a couple of years back which would have happened but for the fans. Maintaining the dream that even a small club can beat a bigger club on a given day and can theoretically rise to join the top table over time- a dream essential to the health of the pyramid - is in direct conflict with other areas of billionaire business investment where they can practically ensure they'll stay at the top once they've made it (hence the attempted Super League project)
There's a documentary about it on TV ATM - called "Greed" or something similar. Well worth a watch.
Amusingly Boris is quoted as saying what a good idea the Super League was until the other clubs, pundits and fans came out against it and then suddenly he was against it too - typical populist chameleon that he is Smile

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

Just for information - Wigan have published their accounts for the period - 27th Jan 2021 to 30th June 2021, showing a loss of £600k.

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/13161421/filing-history

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

Here is a weird one - Staines Town a local club to me.

Non-league club suspend operations amid allegations of modern slavery (and much more)

The club confirmed the news in a statement on Tuesday
Non-league football club Staines Town FC have confirmed that they have suspended all football operations immediately amid a slate of serious allegations including modern slavery.

Staines, who are owned by Downing LLP, confirmed that they are facing several allegations which include modern slavery, corruption and the breaching of Russian sanctions imposed by the UK government.

The club, who play in the Isthmian League Southern Central released a statement on Tuesday which detailed the allegations made against the club's parent company, including breaches of the Modern Slavery Act 2015.

In the statement, Staines stated their belief that Downing LLP "have no regard whatsoever for a community football club or for the greater good of football". The statement also alleges bribery and corruption of FIFA officials by a business which Downing LLP has investment holdings in.

More here -

https://www.sportsjoe.ie/football/staines-modern-slavery-russia-254686

Shocked

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

Even stranger!!!



Shocked Shocked

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

If anyone is interested in the latest on Derby...

Seems an American Businessman, Chris Kirchner has been chosen by the Administrators as the preferred bidder (meaning he has the first chance to buy the club).

The former owner Mel Morris, still however owns the ground!

The EFL will not sanction a sale of any club unless they can provide a stadium to play their games on.

Kirchner today tweeted that a meeting with Morris about buying the ground from him has reached an impasse.

One possible outcome is that Derby may have to play their games at another clubs ground - such as Coventry had to do until recently.

Until this is resolved their Administration will still drag on...

Derby County: Chris Kirchner and Mel Morris at 'impasse' over Pride Park sale

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/61371213

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

wanderlust wrote:Derby sold.

???

No that's not right.

Have you not read the article?

Contracts have been signed subject to conditions.

The sale is awaiting consent from the secured creditors, the sale of the stadium and EFL approval yet.

The major creditor is the former owner who owns the stadium and who has been difficult all the way through the Administration process.  He doesn't seem to want to sell the stadium to the bloke who is buying the club so the council and local businessmen are trying to buy it off him in order to become part of the deal with Kirchner.

Things are looking good but they are not there just yet.

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Sluffy wrote:

???

No that's not right.

Have you not read the article?

Contracts have been signed subject to conditions.
Apologies. I'll take another look at it, subject to not being unexplainably being struck blind in the next two minutes, attacked by marauding tigers wandering into the living room, getting nuked by the Russkis or the internet exploding as thirty million people search for "Bruce Forsyth's slippers" at the exact same moment......although the last one isn't that likely TBH Smile

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

wanderlust wrote:
Apologies. I'll take another look at it, subject to not being unexplainably being struck blind in the next two minutes, attacked by marauding tigers wandering into the living room, getting nuked by the Russkis or the internet exploding as thirty million people search for "Bruce Forsyth's slippers" at the exact same moment......although the last one isn't that likely TBH Smile
Don't make me angry. Very Happy

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

boltonbonce wrote:
Don't make me angry. Very Happy
Smile
I make myself angry. Why on earth did I write unexplainably when I meant inexplicably? When they find a cure for dyslexia it will be music to my arse.

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

NOTE - you need to 'tap' the 'tweet' in order to view the original to see the key paragraph that is highlighted and which doesn't show on here.

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

This was Simon Jordan in February last year.

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

Thanks for that Bonce.

I remember reading a bit about it at the time but it didn't make much sense to me - then again nothing much does when it comes to buying and/or financing a football club.

I've had a look around and although I could find the exact article I'd read, this one is close enough to it.

Basically from what I remember Mike Garlick who owned 49% of Burnley along with John Banaszkiewicz and five smaller share holders sold the club to Alan Pace company ALK Capital (84% of it for £150m apparently) and as per what Jordan said, namely they received a cash sum initially to be followed by payment in three instalments over (an unknown) period of time.

Pace through ALK Capital had borrowed £65m from some sort of Capital Investment company (think BWFC and BluMarble loan) to fund the initial deal and provide the required initial cash flow (presumably) - relegation triggers a major repayment.

From what I recollect Garlick and Banaszkiewicz undertook to take over the club from Pace if there was ever a default in payments to them.

The article below is from January 2022 - so is quite recent.

Ex-Burnley owner Mike Garlick could regain control at Turf Moor if Sean Dyche’s side are relegated

Former Burnley owner Mike Garlick could regain control at Turf Moor if Sean Dyche’s side are relegated — as the deal which saw him sell up to ALK Capital 13 months ago contains a clause giving him the option to buy back the club for a set price if they fall into the Championship.

Garlick remains a director at Burnley despite selling his 49 per cent stake and handing over the chairmanship to ALK managing director Alan Pace, and regularly attends matches.

ALK agreed to pay £150 million for 84 per cent of the club in a transaction to be completed in three stages, which was largely financed by the club’s existing funds and additional borrowing.

Garlick will also regain control if ALK fail to pay any of the subsequent instalments on time, although there are no suggestions that is likely to become an issue.


Burnley declined to comment.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-10404427/Ex-Burnley-owner-Mike-Garlick-regain-control-Turf-Moor-Sean-Dyches-relegated.html

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

There is some discontent with the manner in which Burnley were relegated and the refereeing decisions which went against them the last few games.  They know they didn't play well but it doesn't help when a former ref has publicly suggested that referees are pressured to give harsher decisions to clubs with smaller grounds - presumably something to do with the marketability of the Premiership product.
My sister heard these allegations from a former top ref she knows - and Mark Halsey has also waded in:

Derby County and other clubs - Administration Thread - Page 2 FSzhF74UEAErJkA

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

Conspiracy theories yet again from you know who in the post above... (Halsey's comments are several years old fwiw).

Anyway moving on - this is worth a watch from Maguire in respect of Burnley.



Ten Bobsworth


El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf

A duty to be upfront, eh?
So where does that leave FV in it’s shilly-shallying over the accounts and funding?

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