Bolton 4-0 Blackburn Rovers

karlypants wrote:WTF does it take for us to be on the championship show 1st?

Er, to be near the top of the league.

If they'd put Bournemouth v Doncaster on first would you have been happy seeing as Bournemouth are above us?

luckyPeterpiper wrote:

bwfc1874 wrote:Certainly playing well at the moment with the 442, sounded like a different team in terms of the way the players were closing down and working hard off the ball. I think that's as much down to a change in attitude - which could well be brought on by playing a formation they all want to, as two up front. 

The diamond in midfield is what we played during last season's great run right? Shame it's taken so long for Dougie to change his tactics, but clearly bringing in the Juke and Mason was part of a plan to change the way we play. Rightly of wrongly, he clearly didn't fancy Beckford and C. Davies to do that, and N'gog with Beckford was hit and miss but Mason and Juke with Mavies in behind seem to be working well.

A transformation for us anyway, I hope he sticks with it at Leeds but they're in good form too so will be a tough game. Freeing up the funds to get Juke on a permanent should be the boards focus at the moment IMO.

As much as I'm impressed by Jutkiewicz I disagree, Cravies plays much the same way and if we could bag Mason permanently I think they'd be a very effective partnership, especially with Beckford available as a backup if we need a change. 

For my money the board's priority should be to find the money to buy at least one Left Back as a top priority. If we do have money to buy Juke AFTER that then by all means we should look into it but given he has three years left on his 'Boro contract I think it would probably cost too much to do it in our current circumstances.

It would take a great leap of faith to think Cravies could have re produced the form Juke has shown, i have seen nothing to suggest he can replicate the Job Juke is doing. But he is our player so may need to prove he can do it. I doubt he is capable though.

Hard to pick a MoM yesterday. Danns worked hard and Spearing passed better than I can remember for a long time. Mark Davies was quality with his running on the ball and Juke and Mason both looked comfortable up front together.

wessy wrote:

luckyPeterpiper wrote:As much as I'm impressed by Jutkiewicz I disagree, Cravies plays much the same way and if we could bag Mason permanently I think they'd be a very effective partnership, especially with Beckford available as a backup if we need a change. 

For my money the board's priority should be to find the money to buy at least one Left Back as a top priority. If we do have money to buy Juke AFTER that then by all means we should look into it but given he has three years left on his 'Boro contract I think it would probably cost too much to do it in our current circumstances.

It would take a great leap of faith to think Cravies could have re produced the form Juke has shown, i have seen nothing to suggest he can replicate the Job Juke is doing. But he is our player so may need to prove he can do it. I doubt he is capable though.

Fair enough wessy, I do think Jutkiewicz is a better player than Cravies but feel that he's not a realistic purchase target given the three years left on his deal. I believe Cravies CAN do the job adequately given the right support and so with our finances being what they are I believe that whatever money we have would be better spent on a Left Back first. Even if Tierney comes back fully fit and in form we still need a back up in that position, something I have bemoaned since Alonso was here. 

However if by some chance we had the money to do BOTH then I'd go for that in a heartbeat. I really am surprised at just how well Jutkiewicz has performed since coming here and hope he can keep it up. Some posters seem to think he had a bad day yesterday but I thought he did a very good job and led the line in the old SKD mould, pulling defenders out of position, holding the ball up well and creating space for others to exploit especially Moritz and Mason. Long may that continue and I wouldn't be at all disappointed to see him in our shirt next term if we can afford it. I just feel we have bigger issues to address first.

I believe that given the chance in an extended run of games a Cravies Beckford combo could also work extremely well IF Dougie sticks with the approach we have used over the last couple of games. They might not be quite as good as Juke and Mason but they do have ability and I feel that given the right tactics they'll be able to show that.

I think we'd be able to flog Cravies to Preston for a similar amount we bought him for. But as you say LPP signing Juke permanently would be difficult, now he's proved himself Boro may not fancy selling, particularly as they haven't scored a goal in their last 7 games.

I like Cravies as an impact player but I wouldn't fancy him to lead the line for a full season.

Understand your thinking LPP, can't disagree really, I thought Juke was great yesterday he is strong, wins balls in the air and has good feet, Big Kev was a good target man but i always thought that on the deck he was really lacking, in fact he couldn't trap a bag of cement, moves used to break down, i fear Cravies is similar in this regard?

wessy wrote:Understand your thinking LPP, can't disagree really, I thought Juke was great yesterday he is strong, wins balls in the air and has good feet, Big Kev was a good target man but i always thought that on the deck he was really lacking, in fact he couldn't trap a bag of cement, moves used to break down, i fear Cravies is similar in this regard?

Maybe so wessy, but I think we have to give him a chance with a real run of games in the right system to find out. 

Personally I'd love to have Lukas here permanently and Mason too but I just can't see us being able to afford it. Also don't forget that SKD produced his best displays for us in a similar setup to yesterday, he flicked headers on for fun especially when he was partnered with Diouf. His passing was rubbish over more than ten yards and sometimes his first touch was woeful as you say but he still ran opposition defences ragged and roughed them up psychologically if not physically just by being there.

luckyPeterpiper wrote:

wessy wrote:Understand your thinking LPP, can't disagree really, I thought Juke was great yesterday he is strong, wins balls in the air and has good feet, Big Kev was a good target man but i always thought that on the deck he was really lacking, in fact he couldn't trap a bag of cement, moves used to break down, i fear Cravies is similar in this regard?

Maybe so wessy, but I think we have to give him a chance with a real run of games in the right system to find out. 

Personally I'd love to have Lukas here permanently and Mason too but I just can't see us being able to afford it. Also don't forget that SKD produced his best displays for us in a similar setup to yesterday, he flicked headers on for fun especially when he was partnered with Diouf. His passing was rubbish over more than ten yards and sometimes his first touch was woeful as you say but he still ran opposition defences ragged and roughed them up psychologically if not physically just by being there.

Totally agree LPP

Interesting to see the focus has shifted to who we might be able to afford to sign in the summer.

A couple of good wins and the threat of relegation - still a possibility - is suddenly not the primary reason why 79% of posters who responded to the poll think that Dougie should be sacked now.

I'm not seeing the usual complaints about his tactics or his inability to motivate the players either but that's surely not been sorted out in a couple of games?

Frankly, I'm not worried about the summer. Our performance against Blackburn vindicated bringing in the loanees and loaning out our underperformers in my mind and by and large the players he's brought in look like fairly astute moves - Dougie is looking like a smart cookie when it comes to identifying players that can do a job for us.

So if he's still here in the summer and we do get priced out of the market if he tries to sign some of the current loanees I think he's shown enough already to suggest that he'd be able to to find others within our budget and get us the best deal we can afford.

If the 79% of Dougie-haters have their way I'd be slightly concerned though.

wanderlust wrote:Interesting to see the focus has shifted to who we might be able to afford to sign in the summer.

A couple of good wins and the threat of relegation - still a possibility - is suddenly not the primary reason why 79% of posters who responded to the poll think that Dougie should be sacked now.

I'm not seeing the usual complaints about his tactics or his inability to motivate the players either but that's surely not been sorted out in a couple of games?

Frankly, I'm not worried about the summer. Our performance against Blackburn vindicated bringing in the loanees and loaning out our underperformers in my mind and by and large the players he's brought in look like fairly astute moves - Dougie is looking like a smart cookie when it comes to identifying players that can do a job for us.

So if he's still here in the summer and we do get priced out of the market if he tries to sign some of the current loanees I think he's shown enough already to suggest that he'd be able to to find others within our budget and get us the best deal we can afford.

If the 79% of Dougie-haters have their way I'd be slightly concerned though.

lusty make no mistake here. I don't rate Dougie overall for reasons I've stated too many times to bore you with by going through them again. I feel he is the wrong man for the job in the long term. 

That said I like to give credit where it's due and he deserves it for the performance on Saturday. He set up the system and tactics perfectly and the men on the field clearly understood what was expected and more importantly bought into it. However the fact remains that for most of this season he has clung to a system that patently was failing. I haven't shifted my focus away from his shortcomings but I won't criticise the man when he gets something right. He got it right on Saturday and so did the players. Sadly that's an all too rare occurrence. 

I would like to see someone else in the job, someone who can adapt his approach to suit the strengths of the players he has and can motivate them over a full season rather than bring in a few loanees and rely on them to get us out of a jam we should never have been in to begin with. However, given the fact that Phil Gartside is clearly not going to be removed (which he should be) and he clearly has no intention of sacking Dougie I think rather than keep banging futilely on the Freedman Out drum (this season at least) my efforts and thoughts are better directed at encouraging him and the board to use this coming summer much better than last to prepare for next season. I haven't forgotten that relegation is still possible (Charlton do have three games in hand and we have two very tough away games coming) but the win this weekend made it much less likely. 

I don't want any manager of BWFC to fail, I truly hope that Dougie can find some way to turn it all around but I don't believe he can. He's had eighteen months at the helm and yet we are no further forward than we were when he came in. In fact even if we go on another "run" like we did in the last three months of LAST season there's a strong sense of deja vu because we're doing it on the back of players we don't own. That is no good to us in the long term, sooner or later we won't be able to get the players Dougie wants or they'll fail to perform the way he expects and that will backfire. 

Back in the old BBC606 days I warned that Gary Megson was standing still, that he seemed content to fight a relegation battle year on year and that clubs who stand still get overtaken. I feel we are in that situation now, only a division further down. I hope I'm wrong of course but I fear that we're seeing a repeat of the mistakes made then.

I wonder when the statement 'I got it wrong' will be made? Surely he knows now that he has been getting it wrong for 18 months,

Triumph wrote:I wonder when the statement 'I got it wrong' will be made? Surely he knows now that he has been getting it wrong for 18 months,

Why? He got it right for most of last season as we charged up the table with win after win.

He's probably not the man to turn us into a team that can compete in the premiership but he seems to be making a decent fist of getting the necessary transition under way and I'm backing him to keep us up this season.

We'll only know if his work on clearing out the overpaid players, developing the kids and bringing in affordable players to move us forward is producing results until we're two or three months into next season and we can't expect miracles until the summer at the earliest.

Dougie seems to be on track with the behind the scenes stuff but there's no way of knowing whether he's able to do enough to get us promoted next year until he's had a chance for his plans to come to or at least get nearer to coming to fruition. We'll see.

lusty I think even you would admit he's got it wrong for most of THIS season AND that he blew a real chance to get us into the playoffs at the end of last. I appreciate and understand your point about wanting to be patient but frankly I think you've overdone it. Dougie has had eighteen months and we're no higher up the league than we were when he came in. I'm afraid last season's run doesn't matter, it's what he's doing now that counts and for the vast majority of this season he has unquestionably got it wrong. League tables don't lie my friend. We're in the bottom third of the table because Dougie frankly stuck to a non-viable plan long after it was apparent to everyone else it was failing. Another run this season, based yet again on the backs of loanees won't do more than paper over the inadequacies he has shown for far too much of this campaign. 

Much is being made of the out of contract players freeing up money for him to spend as if it will suddenly result in a cornucopia of cash that will allow him to go out and buy players who can change our world but I personally think that's a foolish belief. I doubt Dougie will see much if anything for transfer fees and he won't get half of the "extra" funds you seem to count on for wages either. No matter how much Gartside waffles on about "equity" the fact is our debt is massive and most of that money will HAVE to go towards servicing it. With the much lower parachute payment we get next year as well I actually feel Dougie will be told to offload even MORE than the five out of deal guys before he's allowed to even think about bringing new faces in. 

I also don't have much faith in the much touted "prospects" from the development and youth teams. I doubt any of them will be ready in DF's eyes for next season and even the ones he HAS brought to the bench before now have barely kicked a ball for the first team. There seems to be a lot of smoke and mirrors in this from where I sit. I admit that's an opinion and only time will tell who is right on that score but I doubt we'll suddenly see half a dozen kids burst through like Man Utd's "Class of 92" did. 

You already know what I think needs to be done, starting with Phil Gartside and working down but even if that's not going to happen I fear the on field problems will worsen even more if Dougie is still here in August.

Yes he's made mistakes.
Yes he's not a tactical genius.
Yes he is willing to make unpopular decisions.
Yes we don't know if the kids will be good enough or whether there'll be any money for him to buy who he wants.

But I still think he should be given time if only to see if all his work will stabilise the club and create a platform to push on.

Getting us steady financially and having a decent  affordable squad is a target I reckon Dougie can eventually deliver and that's the priority for now. When that's achieved it might be a more appropriate time to look for a manager who can push on from there.

We need to be very very wary, ok 2 outstanding back to back performances but this is the guy who said 4-4-2 is old fashioned, so is it now back 'in fashion'? Mason and Juke have made a big big impact as have Mavies and Weetabix but lets not get carried away just yet until we have our own players doing the business.

Triumph wrote:We need to be very very wary, ok 2 outstanding back to back performances but this is the guy who said 4-4-2 is old fashioned, so is it now back 'in fashion'? Mason and Juke have made a big big impact as have Mavies and Wheaterbix but lets not get carried away just yet until we have our own players doing the buisness.

Sorry- I must be a bit dim- you'll need you to explain Weetabix

Wheater

bwfc1874 wrote:Wheater

Mmmmm - it would have taken me a bit of time to make that connection

Triumph wrote:We need to be very very wary, ok 2 outstanding back to back performances but this is the guy who said 4-4-2 is old fashioned, so is it now back 'in fashion'? 

This has been exaggerated by fans in my opinion. I can't remember exactly what the quote said but it was as much about long ball being old fashioned as 442, and considering he played 2 up front last season (and a few times this) I find it seriously unlikely he simply meant that playing that shape was old fashioned.

Bit of a stupid thing to say on his part as it was bound to be taken the wrong way when things are going badly.

bwfc1874 wrote:

Triumph wrote:We need to be very very wary, ok 2 outstanding back to back performances but this is the guy who said 4-4-2 is old fashioned, so is it now back 'in fashion'? 

This has been exaggerated by fans in my opinion. I can't remember exactly what the quote said but it was as much about long ball being old fashioned as 442, and considering he played 2 up front last season (and a few times this) I find it seriously unlikely he simply meant that playing that shape was old fashioned.

Bit of a stupid thing to say on his part as it was bound to be taken the wrong way when things are going badly.

Yet he persisted with it even though it obviously does not work for us.