The WC and DF

okocha wrote:Being at Reading was exactly like watching Brazil last night, even down to the scoreline!

The point is, Wanderlust, that the simple basics of pass and move (along with high pressing) have rarely been demonstrated by us under DF. Instead we see slow, square passing across the back four until, with no options ahead, the ball gets hoofed or turned back to Bogdan to hoof. We tend to retreat to our 18-yard line when not in possession. Yet, DF has often indicated that he knows best, and that his is the way forward. He seems to think he can adapt tactics (unnecessarily!) to outwit the opposition. In any case, his stated ideas do not match what we see in practice in the actual games.
Of course we don't have Germany's skills but we can certainly adopt and practise them at our own level. As RT says, it's a simple game that does not need complicating by smart-arse managers.

Could you clarify please Okocha?

Are you saying that we don't have the skills to play like Germany so Dougie should stop playing the same system as Germany or are you saying that Dougie is doing a poor job of teaching our players to pass and move (and should therefore persist with the same system until they eventually get it right)?

Or are you saying it's both i.e. the system is wrong AND the players are crap?

I get that you're having a go at Dougie but I don't understand what you're having a go at.

I personally think Dougie's problem is that it's a great system for top players - which we don't have.  Seems like he's trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. His pockets are empty anyway so he doesn't need a purse, silk or otherwise.

From previous post:
"Pressing the man in possession, then moving into space to receive a pass are, and always have been, the simple keys to success. Pace and comfort on the ball are extra luxuries, but let's just focus in training on the first essentials, shall we?!"

How much clearer can I be?!

Can we close down further up the pitch?  Yes.
Can we practise moving to make ourselves available? Yes.

These things don't rely on German-like skill. It's about being prepared to sweat with maximum effort after getting truly fit in the first place.
 We do have players who can do this.

Obviously, we should be working on ball skills as well, but retreating to our own area is not wise. I hope DF has reconsidered how to defend corners and set pieces too!

okocha wrote:From previous post:
"Pressing the man in possession, then moving into space to receive a pass are, and always have been, the simple keys to success. Pace and comfort on the ball are extra luxuries, but let's just focus in training on the first essentials, shall we?!"

How much clearer can I be?!

Can we close down further up the pitch?  Yes.
Can we practise moving to make ourselves available? Yes.

These things don't rely on German-like skill. It's about being prepared to sweat with maximum effort after getting truly fit in the first place.
 We do have players who can do this.

Obviously, we should be working on ball skills as well, but retreating to our own area is not wise. I hope DF has reconsidered how to defend corners and set pieces too!

...in which case I agree in part.
Is the manager to blame? Possibly. I suspect that in shoring up the colander of a defence we had early last season DF pulled them too far back and insisted on retaining defensive shape although it worked by and large. We stopped conceding as many but it highlighted this other problem.
Now that we have Dervite he may be able to push the back line forward a bit to compress play further up the pitch - I wouldn't have been happy doing that with Wheater and Knight as my granny could outpace them - always an issue with a high back line.
Is Dougie responsible for the players fitness? Yes, but in mitigation they do seem fitter than they were.
Is Dougie responsible for players being able to control, pass and move? Only in the sense that he picks the team and signs players - which should be an unqualified yes if it weren't for the fact that he is severely handicapped in the ability to get the players he might want.

If we retain the 4231 system which is likely, there is plenty to work on to get it right.

I think that where I was coming from on this was the comment that you ascribed to Dougie about tactics - but on the basic skills front I agree with you.

Breadman wrote:

bwfc1874 wrote:I don't think that's the point of this discussion though, if we were winning nobody would care about the football it's as simple as that.

We've debated this point ad nauseam on here many times before.

Some of us older farts do still actually give a shit if the football's dire to watch.

If we win every game 1-0 but we're camped on our own 18 yard line, defending like it's Rorke's Drift for 90 minutes, some of us (me included) will not be happy.


Winning isn't the be all and end all for me.

I started watching football in an era when it was still classed as "entertainment" for the masses, rather than a "business" designed to make a privileged few very rich.

Is that so hard to understand?

    100% right there mate and why I refused to renew my season ticket when Megson was manager. I don't mind losing sometimes as long as we've seen something that gave us value for money. In today's world football is a very expensive form of entertainment and if the club wants us to fork out hundreds and even thousands of pounds then I feel we have a right to expect to be entertained. If we're not we have the right to withhold our cash whether we win or not.