Watford 3-0 Bolton Wanderers

JAH wrote:I guess ur slowly coming over to the dark side eh bwfc1875!

It's nothing to do with a dark side JAH, this is why you can't have a reasonable debate about Bolton because all you can do is criticise. I'm capable of doing both and I was fuming when I saw that lineup, Feeney and Hall had good pre seasons and should have played. Pratley certainly shouldn't have. 

I was out all of yesterday so that's all I can base my judgement on, and for me that was way off.

That doesn't mean I think he's a bad manager overnight, and I still don't agree with 90% of the lies and exaggerations fans like you pull out because you can't be objective and feel the need to slate everything that he does because you don't like him.

bwfc1874 wrote:

JAH wrote:I guess ur slowly coming over to the dark side eh bwfc1875!

It's nothing to do with a dark side JAH, this is why you can't have a reasonable debate about Bolton because all you can do is criticise. I'm capable of doing both and I was fuming when I saw that lineup, Feeney and Hall had good pre seasons and should have played. Pratley certainly shouldn't have. 

I was out all of yesterday so that's all I can base my judgement on, and for me that was way off.

That doesn't mean I think he's a bad manager overnight, and I still don't agree with 90% of the lies and exaggerations fans like you pull out because you can't be objective and feel the need to slate everything that he does because you don't like him.

By the way, Moxey was fucking dreadful!!!!!!

Bolton: Lonergan 5, McNaughton 5, Mills 5, Ream 4, Moxey 3 (Dervite 60), Lee 6, Spearing 6, Medo 5, Pratley 4 (Feeney 46), Danns 4 (Beckford 68), C Davies 7; subs not used: Bogdan, Trotter, Wheater, Wilkinson.

Read the match report it makes a change from the BEN's efforts.

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its like deja vu from last season already! Same old two holding players and Pratley playing behind the front man is ridiculous!
People will say its one game but Freedman has been banging on about getting rid of the bad eggs and getting a team and players he's happy with and we look no different than last season already. It doesn't matter about whether we have strikers or not at the moment as we have no one to actually create anything. We only started creating when Feeney came on and Dougie needs to play him from the start against Forest.
Dougie will not survive another start to the season like last season and again we have a tough start.

What would anyone have done much different than what Freedman did though?

Watford are a good side in this division and have two top strikers in Deeney (my one to watch - good article if I say so myself - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] ) and Vydra, so most managers would plan to try to stop them.

Also playing away from home, so even though it is the norm for Freedman in most games, two defensive midfielders seemed to make sense.

From the brief clips of the goals I saw, the first two seemed to come from long balls over the top, to turn our defenders and exploit their lack of speed. Our new left back by all accounts had a stinker - not much you can do about that - other than drop him for future games.

If I'm right about the long balls over the top, the counter to that is for our defense to play deep - allowing less room behind them.

If we set up to stop them, we then have to sacrifice something and that usually means only one up fromt.

Interesting he didn't play Beckford - maybe he thinks now he isn't a lone striker player - which must people who have seen him seem to been saying for a while.

If he doesn't play Beckford then he has no other realistic choice but to play Cravies - perhaps he could have played the young kid Wilkinson - but first match of the season with two experienced strikers in the team ahead of him - I guess that might have been a gamble in that if it didn't work - and the chances it would not - the service would always have been poor to whoever did play - and he would have been up against properly experience defenders and not some other kids his own age and experience that he would have faced in his career to date - then Freedman would have his only two experienced strikers knowing he didn't have faith in them (and to many people having a belief in them, motivates them) and a young kid who probably would lose his confidence in his abilities if things had turned out bad for him. Better to introduce him gradually for the last 20 mins or so in games like this - away from home - to help him get established first.

So, Cravies up front, so who to help him? Mavies is injured (again!), that only leaves Danns and Pratley doesn't it?

Should Freedman taken a punt at playing Lee as the attacking (central) midfielder? Would have been interesting I think but Lee clearly doesn't like a tackle these days.

I can't really see the point of playing a 'jinxy' winger like Lee if we only play with one up front - other defeners have that chance to get back whilst he is running rings around the full back - I would have gone with pace myself and played Feeney.

Maybe Freedman is TOLD to play Lee and keep him in the shop window whilst the window is still open - realistically who would want to sign him if he couldn't get into even our team? We do need to get shut of him to save on his wages - money as we know is tight at the club these days.

I guess Bogdan is off. I'm not a fan of his but he did seem to play very well after he came back from being dropped last season. I can't understand why he didn't play yesterday - if he wasn't fit why was he on the bench and if he was fit why did he not start? Maybe a deal is going on in the background somewhere and it was thought better not to risk him just in case, but have him on the bench if something happened to Lonergan.

So keeper, back four, two defensive mids, lone striker, two supporting lone striker and a winger - that was the side that Freedman sent out and really one I couldn't disagree much with - can you?

I would have played Bogdan and Feeney myself but maybe Freedman wanted to do that also but maybe couldn't due to off field wheeling and dealing perhaps?

The fact is that we have a poor side and Watford had a decent one - we went to try to stop them scoring and get a point - but failed.

I don't think much would change whoever our manager was for that game - do you?

He does need to be very much more positive for home games and for away games against weaker teams - that is his failing to me so far.

I expected to lose against Watford - we did - hardly unexpected really and as such we should look to what players we can get in on loan AFTER the window shuts to improve us - so several more weeks of struggling to go yet before things have a chance to pick up.

Honestly the only selection that I though "oh" about was leaving out Feeney. He's clearly the only player we've got who is willing and able to take a man on and be positive. 

IMO Feeney should never be on the bench when you consider the dearth of creative ability we have in the squad. 

Don't have a problem with going defensive away from home personally, can't really blame the manager for individual errors, though I suppose you could go down the road that he doesn't educate them enough in training, or he picks the wrong "group" chemistry wise. But not sure who's covered themselves in glory amongst the available defenders. Like I said yesterday though I'm struggling to remember when we had a group of players that could nail the basics in any area of the game. Scary really. 

At the end of the day DF will pay with his job if he's not able move this team forward pretty quickly.

the problem is though sluffy he won't change it for home games either, we played two holding players and one striker for most of the home games last season and if we lose a few he will be too scared to play a more attacking game as we may concede more.

The formation we play can work, a lot of the top teams play it now but we just don't have the creativity and legs in midfield to support a lone striker, we just end up sitting deep and giving the ball away (far too easily as well)

The goals

Agreed on both points - in fact I said as much in my post above.

Which really comes back to how would anybody have done anything very much differently yesterday?

I know the mob mentality is to blame Freedman - it is now evolving in a similar way to how it was with Megson - but what other options did he have?

I'm sure he would have liked to strengthen the team by now and brought in players such as Duke and Mason but that as not been allowed to happen - so really he finds himself in a very similar position to last seasons start - with very similar playing squad - and we all know how bad that was.

I can't see us improving until yet again he dips into the loan market after the window is shut.

That's the reality we live in.

Sacking Freedman won't change anything in the short term - and one of Freedman's better points imo, was his eye for good loan players.

Going to be some bad weeks ahead - not all of it will be down to Freedman - he can only play the cards he is given.

Sluffy wrote:

Which really comes back to how would anybody have done anything very much differently yesterday?

I know the mob mentality is to blame Freedman - it is now evolving in a similar way to how it was with Megson - but what other options did he have?

I presume this is a joke post.

What could Freedman have done differently? Oh I don't know, the blindingly obvious one is not leave us with such a shite squad going into the game?

But let's imagine I became Dougie Freedman at 2pm yesterday and was forced to use the squad he had put together.

I'd have played an "old fashioned" 4-4-2 and played Ream in central midfield - Ream is the ONLY player in the whole squad who can pass so why play him in defence? I'd have played Feeney wide right and Cavies & Beckford upfront.

Far, far from perfect - but we wouldn't have lost 3-0 and be so completely overrun. It's all very well being defensive if you have a sound defence, but if it's shit like ours you are just inviting the opposition to swarm all over you. The only way to counter it is to actually attack yourself.

Dougie is simply an arrogant prick who thinks he is "clever" but really he is making it up as he goes along.

Ream would make a terrible midfielder, what a stupid suggestion

I guess your midfield then would be Feeney, Spearing, Ream and Danns.

Yes, it might have worked better but I don't think it would have changed the result and stoped Deeney and Vydra - do you really?

I could understand him going defensive in this instance - maybe he will go more attacking at home - hope so anyway.

Just watching the highlights and all three goals came from long balls over the top.

Which makes it all academic really as who to have in midfield as Watford cut them all out by going over the top of them.  Clearly they highlighted a lack of pace at the back from our defenders - they were right too.

Long, long season ahead.

Boggersbelief wrote:Ream would make a terrible midfielder, what a stupid suggestion

 why is it stupid? he can pass the ball better than Spearing and Medo thats for sure.

Boggersbelief wrote:Ream would make a terrible midfielder, what a stupid suggestion

He played midfield last season for a few games and was pretty good - the front players got more service than they ever did from Medo.

As I've said, not perfect, but to win games you have to have creativity in midfield.

pass it to who? And then who does that person pass it too?

none of these players have an ounce of footballing IQ, no composure and little skill.

how many passes does it generally take before a hoof? (thus giving it away and inviting pressure) 2, 3 maybe 5 or 6 if they knock it along the back four. I don't understand how a team of professionals can't fathom the very basics of pass and move into space. 

I'm just watching the 3 minute highlight package and I can see instances of it in that small sample.

Norpig wrote:

Boggersbelief wrote:Ream would make a terrible midfielder, what a stupid suggestion

 why is it stupid? he can pass the ball better than Spearing and Medo thats for sure.

Because he's as weak as piss. You and Nat make him sound like stevie G.. His passing is average

Boggersbelief wrote: His passing is average

Then he's already the best passer in the team by default.

I think you'll find that mark davies is the best passer

Just watched the highlights.....not trying to defend anyone but the first goal was a great pass through...second one looked offside on the initial pass through.... on the third our lad was fouled and the ball came right back and caught us out.  Having said all that we are still rubbish.

We are 23rd in the table and Huddersfield are 24th.... this morning they have sacked their manager after one game......crazy move but at least they have the gumption to give it a go. It can't get any worse for them.....or us.

It obviously could get worse, you're talking about 1 defeat, even if it was 20-0 it could get worse.