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gloswhite wrote:I still have nearly 400 Euros on my cash card, from my holiday, so that has gained me about £24. Sounds good, but it was about the same as the loss I made when I waited to convert pounds to Euros before I went. Swings and roundabouts.

Liam went to Spain on Tuesday so I have been keeping an eye on the Euro. Mr Patel at my local post office reckons that the best day to buy Euros is a Saturday morning because the price seems to go up over the weekend and is nearly always higher than on weekdays. He was telling me that the day before the Brexit vote he sold out all his Euros so some people clearly planned ahead!

Actually, RT, its a known fact that rates are always worse when the holiday season is on as well. Also, if you remember lots of people got their holiday money before Brexit. I laughed at that, but it turned out to be a good move.
We'll all become international financiers over the next year or two 

The cost of living does vary substantially from country to country in Europe as they all have different internal tax systems so a week or so ago I had to pay 1.26 euros a litre for diesel in Portugal, but only 0.94 euros in Spain.

gloswhite wrote:Wander ! I'm taking that as one of your positive views !!! 

Yup - I'm positive we've made one almighty f*** up.

wanderlust wrote:

gloswhite wrote:Wander ! I'm taking that as one of your positive views !!! 

Yup - I'm positive we've made one almighty f*** up.

Maybe we have, although I don't agree with you, however, don't you think the situation will deteriorate even further with all the Remainers continuing to refuse the democratic process, dragging down the country's future with all their whingeing, attempted subversion, and general moaning ?
Does it not seem obvious that if we all get behind the government, (and the majority of the country), that it will be seen as a positive move by good old Johnny Foreigner, who will then begin to have more faith in our ability to bounce back, (and begin to give us some of our money back) ?
Life is a lot easier to handle when you are an optimist 

Hola!
Just popping in from sunny Portugal to remibd certain individuals that I called this back in June.
Peace and love.
And don't doubt me ever again.

gloswhite wrote:Actually, 84, you make a good point. Not because of the downturn of the pound, but because of what you get for your money in Europe.
I go over there regularly, and holiday in Euro areas, etc, and have to say that I seem to get through a hell of a lot more Euros than I would pounds for stuff I get, compared to the UK, especially food and drink. Clothing can be sky-high too. I know there's a difference in rates, but when I convert a purchase back to pounds, it can be quite a surprise. 
The cost of living in Europe is higher than the UK, and always has been. We can absorb some of the smaller rises quite easily, and if I remember, it wasn't too many years ago when the pound and euro were almost 1:1. Currently its £1 : E1.10. (I don't have a euro sign handy   )
A typical example of the greed of money men is the ridiculous 88 cents for £1 offered at airports.

Depends on what you're buying and where you are. The cost of food and drink on the continent is far lower in countries like Spain, Italy and France because it tends to be locally produced - wine, beer, bread cheese etc (what more do you need).

Which brings me to a point I made somewhere else, and that is why don't we start cutting down on all the imports we have, especially different varieties of the same product ? We over import, just so that people can pick and choose, and have a particular fruit or veg all the year round. 
Of the items you mention, we also have a very good home industry for them, so why not reduce the imports, and direct customers to them instead ? I think the whole import mind-set for the UK needs to be looked at.
Now I think about it, what food products do we export ?

gloswhite wrote:Which brings me to a point I made somewhere else, and that is why don't we start cutting down on all the imports we have, especially different varieties of the same product ? We over import, just so that people can pick and choose, and have a particular fruit or veg all the year round. 
Of the items you mention, we also have a very good home industry for them, so why not reduce the imports, and direct customers to them instead ?

How would you implement such a policy? This looks like a massive restriction to the free market and people being able to choose what they want to buy. It might work in North Korea but I didn't realise this was the ultimate dream of the Brexiteers.

gloswhite wrote:

wanderlust wrote:

gloswhite wrote:Wander ! I'm taking that as one of your positive views !!! 

Yup - I'm positive we've made one almighty f*** up.

Maybe we have, although I don't agree with you, however, don't you think the situation will deteriorate even further with all the Remainers continuing to refuse the democratic process, dragging down the country's future with all their whingeing, attempted subversion, and general moaning ?
Does it not seem obvious that if we all get behind the government, (and the majority of the country), that it will be seen as a positive move by good old Johnny Foreigner, who will then begin to have more faith in our ability to bounce back, (and begin to give us some of our money back) ?
Life is a lot easier to handle when you are an optimist 

The Remoaners are moaning because they can see us heading into deep shit whilst the vainglorious Leavers are torn between unjustifiable optimism and the desperate need not to be seen to have been suckered.

Britain was a disaster before we joined the EU and I have no confidence that the British system of Government will ever be able to provide us with the security and stability that the EU has. Ours may have been the first government of it's type but whilst others have adopted and adapted it with ongoing improvements as they have in e.g. Australia and Scandinavia, ours has been stuck in the 19th century and continues to favour the few. Prior to the Common Market we suffered terrible food shortages, a very limited range of shopping options, regular industrial action and power cuts, unreliable services and little or no protection of workers rights - apart from strike action.  We had the three day week, denationalisation, boom/bust, Black Monday and the systematic dismantling of our capacity to manufacture and provide our own natural resources. Thatcher in particular did the most damage to our ability to be self-sufficient in killing off (instead of mothballing) our coal, shipbuilding and fishing industries, and selling off our offshore gas and oil resources - all of which we will need if we are ever to return to something approaching self-sufficiency so if anyone thinks we can suddenly remove our dependency on imports they are deluded.
When I was a kid, it was fun to get the candles out of the pantry so we could see and the camping stove so we could cook but I can't see that going down well in today's electricity-dependent society.
When we joined the EU I was delighted we had a big lumbering beast to slow down the pace of decision-making because it finally put an end to the destructive cycle of each new Government completely dismantling what the previous Government had achieved and putting political popularity and dogma ahead of the country's interests - but that's what we appear to be heading into.
The EU kept a lid on the excesses of the British ruling elite by providing universal rights and rules but sadly we are heading back to the anarchy of the 50s and 60s with no safety net.
The upcoming trade negotiations will only determine the tools we'll have at our disposal to move forward but having sold off our resources and lost a generation of skills it's going to be very tough.

As for the pound - it's ironic that when we finally get to leave the single market, we effectively join the single currency. And the FTSE is rocketing as foreign investors bet on massive inflation - and profits to be made from Britain's upcoming struggle.

So we are staring into the Abyss and longing for the sweet release of Death. I shall get back to spending hours tearfully browsing country cottages on Zoopla like the rest of us. I need to check for some Dr.Scholls sandals for round the house too.

wanderlust wrote:The Remoaners are moaning because they can see us heading into deep shit whilst the vainglorious Leavers are torn between unjustifiable optimism and the desperate need not to be seen to have been suckered.

Britain was a disaster before we joined the EU and I have no confidence that the British system of Government will ever be able to provide us with the security and stability that the EU has. Ours may have been the first government of it's type but whilst others have adopted and adapted it with ongoing improvements as they have in e.g. Australia and Scandinavia, ours has been stuck in the 19th century and continues to favour the few. Prior to the Common Market we suffered terrible food shortages, a very limited range of shopping options, regular industrial action and power cuts, unreliable services and little or no protection of workers rights - apart from strike action.  We had the three day week, denationalisation, boom/bust, Black Monday and the systematic dismantling of our capacity to manufacture and provide our own natural resources. Thatcher in particular did the most damage to our ability to be self-sufficient in killing off (instead of mothballing) our coal, shipbuilding and fishing industries, and selling off our offshore gas and oil resources - all of which we will need if we are ever to return to something approaching self-sufficiency so if anyone thinks we can suddenly remove our dependency on imports they are deluded.
When I was a kid, it was fun to get the candles out of the pantry so we could see and the camping stove so we could cook but I can't see that going down well in today's electricity-dependent society.
When we joined the EU I was delighted we had a big lumbering beast to slow down the pace of decision-making because it finally put an end to the destructive cycle of each new Government completely dismantling what the previous Government had achieved and putting political popularity and dogma ahead of the country's interests - but that's what we appear to be heading into.
The EU kept a lid on the excesses of the British ruling elite by providing universal rights and rules but sadly we are heading back to the anarchy of the 50s and 60s with no safety net.
The upcoming trade negotiations will only determine the tools we'll have at our disposal to move forward but having sold off our resources and lost a generation of skills it's going to be very tough.

As for the pound - it's ironic that when we finally get to leave the single market, we effectively join the single currency. And the FTSE is rocketing as foreign investors bet on massive inflation - and profits to be made from Britain's upcoming struggle.

Condescending shite. And I didn't even read it.

I need to know if I should start looting NOW. They were going to blame us for the economy wether we stayed in EU or came out. So do we start looting right now in order to not miss out on electrical goods and sportswear we will miss if we wait for the official start of looting?

Wander, I'm assuming that you have yet to retire, so once you have done, maybe it'll be better for you, if you relocated to Spain, or some other Nirvana, and leave this pathetic and sinking land to us who want to see changes.You have obviously seen only the down side of your own country for many years, so why torture yourself, just move out. 
However, before you go, think about all the good things that have been made available to you. You are obviously a well educated and intelligent man, and I get the feeling that you are financially secure, so has it really been as bad as you say ? Criticism is fair, and even deserved at times, but I find your views a little difficult to take at times.
We all know times are going to get tough, but, to my mind, the benefits will be there for all of us. I would rather a rough road now, than a cul-de-sac of opportunities for my grand children.

I don't think your view of the country and Wanders are a million miles apart Glos. Wander seems to think the positives of modern day Britain can be attributed to the EU and not subsequent governments, whereas (and apologies if this is wrong) you seem to suggest the EU has restricted governments.

Both of you talk about wanting to see change in society, id guess most reasonably people agree on what we'd like to improve. It's a question of how we manage to do so.

Your right 74, I believe we have benefited being within the EU, however, as the years have progressed, I feel that our choice as a nation, in nearly all aspects, has been diluted, almost to the point that we no longer have a say in how we manage ourselves. I don't want this country to be also-rans, to be dictated to by at least 15 other countries who have contributed nothing, and never will. The federalisation of the EU, which, in effect, means it will be run by Germany, because of the money, doesn't appeal to me, and I see only more problems by sticking with them.

sunlight wrote:So we are staring into the Abyss and longing for the sweet release of Death. I shall get back to spending hours tearfully browsing country cottages on Zoopla like the rest of us. I need to check for some Dr.Scholls sandals for round the house too.

I always thought the Lady of Shalott had a splendid country pile? 

gloswhite wrote:Wander, I'm assuming that you have yet to retire, so once you have done, maybe it'll be better for you, if you relocated to Spain, or some other Nirvana, and leave this pathetic and sinking land to us who want to see changes.You have obviously seen only the down side of your own country for many years, so why torture yourself, just move out. 
However, before you go, think about all the good things that have been made available to you. You are obviously a well educated and intelligent man, and I get the feeling that you are financially secure, so has it really been as bad as you say ? Criticism is fair, and even deserved at times, but I find your views a little difficult to take at times.
We all know times are going to get tough, but, to my mind, the benefits will be there for all of us. I would rather a rough road now, than a cul-de-sac of opportunities for my grand children.

I am retired as it happens - although I do a bit every now and then.

I would consider going to Spain or similar, but as my mate pointed out, thanks to Brexit, British pensions for expats have just been cut by a whopping 20%.

The difference in our perspective is perhaps around the notion of the UK as an economic power - one I believe has been fading for a long time. We had our day as a manufacturing giant but successive Governments over the last 30 or 40 years have closed our industries and turned us into a service sector nation, highly dependent on foreign imports. Now we've been overtaken by China and it's only a matter of time before the emergent economies of India and Brazil also overtake us. Leaving the EU has simply accelerated that process and shortened the time we had to prepare for the inevitable.

Like Bolton's cotton mills, Tyneside's shipyards, Cornwall's tin mines, Lancashire coal and Grimsby's fishing, world economics has moved on and left the UK living in the past. Unfortunately, what we are left with - research, financial sector and services - can be moved anywhere in the world at the drop of a hat - and most of our remaining businesses - the FTSE 100 for example - is largely foreign owned already along with much of our infrastructure and big chunks of our major cities especially London.

We have decided to risk putting ourselves in a situation where prices will rise, jobs will be lost, foreigners will buy and eventually run the UK and standards of living will fall - but we have made that decision so now we can only hope that something can be salvaged if we get behind this ship of fools.

Good response Wander. fairs fair, and I'd be happy if you didn't emigrate 
I agree with your points about the service industry taking over the business side of the country. Having said that I saw a programme recently, (turned over after a few minutes as the missus wanted Corrie or something), and they were asking if we really needed the heavy manufacturing industry we had in days gone by. I think the gist of it was that we didn't, (I don't agree with that either).
As an economic power, we are indeed starting to slide, but I believe part of our former glory was always based on ifs, buts, and promises. Being allied to the EU gave us a false sense of security, allowing us to go in directions that made us more reliant on the market, and less reliant on ourselves. An example being our preference for purchasing foreign steel, gas, electricity, etc, and in exchange we now have a country of Baristas, people who think making a cup of coffee is the best, and only, hope they have for employment.  
I think we have to get away from the idea that we must make our books balance each year, and take the longer view. Such a short-sighted approach has caused major problems with future planning for this country. To my mind, there really wasn't/isn't a real choice when it comes to Brexit.

gloswhite wrote:Good response Wander. fairs fair, and I'd be happy if you didn't emigrate 
I agree with your points about the service industry taking over the business side of the country. Having said that I saw a programme recently, (turned over after a few minutes as the missus wanted Corrie or something), and they were asking if we really needed the heavy manufacturing industry we had in days gone by. I think the gist of it was that we didn't, (I don't agree with that either).
As an economic power, we are indeed starting to slide, but I believe part of our former glory was always based on ifs, buts, and promises. Being allied to the EU gave us a false sense of security, allowing us to go in directions that made us more reliant on the market, and less reliant on ourselves. An example being our preference for purchasing foreign steel, gas, electricity, etc, and in exchange we now have a country of Baristas, people who think making a cup of coffee is the best, and only, hope they have for employment.  
I think we have to get away from the idea that we must make our books balance each year, and take the longer view. Such a short-sighted approach has caused major problems with future planning for this country. To my mind, there really wasn't/isn't a real choice when it comes to Brexit.

The issue is where do we go from here though because we have voted to leave. Just doesn't ring true about pinning our hope on exports when the little manufacturing we have is dependent on buying in foreign raw materials at premium prices and most of the big manufacturers are foreign or have a foreign presence anyway. Any profits made will go out of the country so we can hardly depend on that being reinvested in UK PLC. Perhaps our youngsters can brew their way out of trouble? - but we don't even own Starbuck's or Costa so I'm not sure how much that will help.

It was announced today that Tesco's market share is up along with Aldi, Iceland and Lidl so it's going to be interesting to see how they adjust as the devaluation of the pound kicks in over the next couple of years. They all claim to buy British where they can but I imagine they are scrabbling around to reposition themselves with the remaining UK suppliers as we speak, although most farmers around Norfolk have diversified into rapeseed, sugar beet and other crops to avoid having to supply supermarkets at rock bottom prices so I can't see the dependency on imports getting much relief. That said, farmers in West Lancs have form for growing pointless crops to plough straight back into the ground once they've received their European subsidy so when that goes they'll be forced to do something productive with the land and maybe that will help if the supermarkets are prepared to be reasonable.