HomeSo he’s put Davies money into the club.
Club Future - Administration or bust?
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622 Re: Club Future - Administration or bust? Mon Apr 08 2019, 18:54
Sluffy
Admin
T.R.O.Y wrote:So he’s put Davies money into the club.
No he's put his own money into the club - in just the same way as if he went to the bank for a loan, or perhaps to someone like BluMarble.
Davies hasn't put his money into the club, nor would have the bank or BM, etc, he will have loaned it to Anderson/ICI - and will go after him to get it back.
If the club no longer existed Davies, the bank, BM or whoever had loaned it, wouldn't have lost their money - they would still chase Anderson for it.
If Davies had put money into the club directly and it went bust - then he'd have lost it.
The person who put the money into the club was Anderson and he's the one who is facing losing it - not Davies, the bank or anyone else Anderson might have borrowed it from. Whatever happens he is still required to pay it back and Eddies no longer there to write it off and Moonshift seems to have already sold off the debt to someone already chasing it up from him.
If he hadn't borrowed the money and put it into the club we would be facing the same situation but several months sooner with BM pushing for liquidation instead of HMRC who are now doing so, with the one notable exception - Anderson would not have the need to liquidate the club as he wouldn't have put any of HIS money into it at that stage.
By borrowing the money personally/ICI, and putting it into the club he's kept the club solvent for some months later although there might be a high price to pay for him being loaned the money to do that.
Let's hope it doesn't come to that.
623 Re: Club Future - Administration or bust? Tue Apr 09 2019, 01:18
wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
As regards putting us into liquidation Anderson would get back £5 million of the Davies' money he put into the club as he secured it against the club's assets which would have to be sold to pay him which he could then use to pay back the Davies family. There is a rumour that he borrowed a further £3 million from the Davies family and lent that to the club but didn't secure it against the club's assets and if that is true, he might not get that back which might make him think twice about putting us into liquidation. Sluffy is again quoting "Howard" but I haven't seen any confirmation of the unsecured £3 million yet, but I'm sure Sluffy will put me right on that. I just hope it's true for the sake of the club.
And for the 500th time I will reiterate that I don't hate Anderson. As I have said all along, I don't trust him, I think he puts his personal interest ahead of the club and he looks like a toad - but that is some distance from hating him.
That said, if when the facts come out it is shown that he has f****d us over, I will probably hate him then. As should any Bolton fan.
And for the 500th time I will reiterate that I don't hate Anderson. As I have said all along, I don't trust him, I think he puts his personal interest ahead of the club and he looks like a toad - but that is some distance from hating him.
That said, if when the facts come out it is shown that he has f****d us over, I will probably hate him then. As should any Bolton fan.
624 Re: Club Future - Administration or bust? Tue Apr 09 2019, 09:34
Sluffy
Admin
wanderlust wrote:As regards putting us into liquidation Anderson would get back £5 million of the Davies' money he put into the club as he secured it against the club's assets which would have to be sold to pay him which he could then use to pay back the Davies family. There is a rumour that he borrowed a further £3 million from the Davies family and lent that to the club but didn't secure it against the club's assets and if that is true, he might not get that back which might make him think twice about putting us into liquidation. Sluffy is again quoting "Howard" but I haven't seen any confirmation of the unsecured £3 million yet, but I'm sure Sluffy will put me right on that. I just hope it's true for the sake of the club.
And for the 500th time I will reiterate that I don't hate Anderson. As I have said all along, I don't trust him, I think he puts his personal interest ahead of the club and he looks like a toad - but that is some distance from hating him.
That said, if when the facts come out it is shown that he has f****d us over, I will probably hate him then. As should any Bolton fan.
Nobody believes you, they can all see you make things up to try to pretend you haven't been lying, or got things wrong.
You don't hate Anderson - Christ we've all been reading what you've posted for the three years about him - and your absolutely abuse of me because I called you out time and time again on the worst of it and how bonkers some of the stuff you were making up was.
I only know what Howard says do I - then why I was posting links to Companies House showing he'd secured his money into the club as a charge against assets months before he even arrived on the scene? You still couldn't accept I was right about that - even though it was in black and white - until Howard confirmed it to be so! Just shows you can't accept anything I say - presumably simply because you can't bear to be seen to be wrong.
It's like dealing with a petulant, spoiled, juvenile brat who thinks they are ever so smarter than the rest of us and won't take any responsibility for what they've said and done and think by name calling and lying through their teeth and denying they said any such things, will get them free of being found out they were ever wrong about anything at all.
Yes, I could tell you about the £3m but I don't care to as you clearly don't wish to believe anything I've ever said so far - I'd wager however that the vast majority on here do except my word on it though!
Believe what you want to anyway because facts have certainly not got in the way of your utter prejudice against Anderson for the last three years have they!
625 Re: Club Future - Administration or bust? Tue Apr 09 2019, 10:20
wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Ignoring the rantings of the deranged, increasingly desperate and clearly confused "contributor" on a mission above, another rumour put forward by "Howard" was that Moonshift triggered the clause whereby if Anderson defaulted on the loan repayments he would forfeit his shares, thereby losing control.
That clause required that Anderson would have 14 days from the date of triggering to sort it out and the stage payment was guesstimated to be around £2 million.
If true, the 14 days notice is up today or tomorrow (the date I mistook for the winding up hearing date) which means that Anderson would have to find the money himself or get Bassini or A.N. Other to front it in order to retain control of the sale.
Failure to do so would mean that Moonshift could then sell the club to their preferred bidder under the terms they want.
If this turns out to be true, there may be some action over the next 36 hours as Anderson scrambles to retain control, but we'll see.
BTW i don't like being accused of "lying through my teeth", so would someone be kind enough to ask the "contributor" to signpost me to where I have allegedly said that I "hate" Anderson? I had a quick look, and whilst I found hundreds of instances where I have said I don't trust him and am suspicious of his motives (which is and always has been my opinion) I am struggling to find a single instance where I actually said I hate him. There may be an isolated case somewhere in the annals of time but I would be very surprised as I don't (yet) and therefore can't see any reason why I would have said it.
Whilst he's at it, he might also signpost where I have said "I am smarter" than other posters.
To my knowledge, the only poster who has ever insinuated this is the said contributor (I'm flattered, but would never suggest it myself as I don't believe I am) so evidence please seeing that "facts" are apparently more important than opinions (on a footie forum???) - as opposed to the wild imaginings and misguided extrapolations of said contributor.
That clause required that Anderson would have 14 days from the date of triggering to sort it out and the stage payment was guesstimated to be around £2 million.
If true, the 14 days notice is up today or tomorrow (the date I mistook for the winding up hearing date) which means that Anderson would have to find the money himself or get Bassini or A.N. Other to front it in order to retain control of the sale.
Failure to do so would mean that Moonshift could then sell the club to their preferred bidder under the terms they want.
If this turns out to be true, there may be some action over the next 36 hours as Anderson scrambles to retain control, but we'll see.
BTW i don't like being accused of "lying through my teeth", so would someone be kind enough to ask the "contributor" to signpost me to where I have allegedly said that I "hate" Anderson? I had a quick look, and whilst I found hundreds of instances where I have said I don't trust him and am suspicious of his motives (which is and always has been my opinion) I am struggling to find a single instance where I actually said I hate him. There may be an isolated case somewhere in the annals of time but I would be very surprised as I don't (yet) and therefore can't see any reason why I would have said it.
Whilst he's at it, he might also signpost where I have said "I am smarter" than other posters.
To my knowledge, the only poster who has ever insinuated this is the said contributor (I'm flattered, but would never suggest it myself as I don't believe I am) so evidence please seeing that "facts" are apparently more important than opinions (on a footie forum???) - as opposed to the wild imaginings and misguided extrapolations of said contributor.
626 Re: Club Future - Administration or bust? Tue Apr 09 2019, 11:03
Sluffy
Admin
wanderlust wrote:Ignoring the rantings of the deranged, increasingly desperate and clearly confused "contributor" on a mission above, another rumour put forward by "Howard" was that Moonshift triggered the clause whereby if Anderson defaulted on the loan repayments he would forfeit his shares, thereby losing control.
That clause required that Anderson would have 14 days from the date of triggering to sort it out and the stage payment was guesstimated to be around £2 million.
If true, the 14 days notice is up today or tomorrow (the date I mistook for the winding up hearing date) which means that Anderson would have to find the money himself or get Bassini or A.N. Other to front it in order to retain control of the sale.
Failure to do so would mean that Moonshift could then sell the club to their preferred bidder under the terms they want.
If this turns out to be true, there may be some action over the next 36 hours as Anderson scrambles to retain control, but we'll see.
BTW i don't like being accused of "lying through my teeth", so would someone be kind enough to ask the "contributor" to signpost me to where I have allegedly said that I "hate" Anderson? I had a quick look, and whilst I found hundreds of instances where I have said I don't trust him and am suspicious of his motives (which is and always has been my opinion) I am struggling to find a single instance where I actually said I hate him. There may be an isolated case somewhere in the annals of time but I would be very surprised as I don't (yet) and therefore can't see any reason why I would have said it.
Whilst he's at it, he might also signpost where I have said "I am smarter" than other posters.
To my knowledge, the only poster who has ever insinuated this is the said contributor (I'm flattered, but would never suggest it myself as I don't believe I am) so evidence please seeing that "facts" are apparently more important than opinions (on a footie forum???) - as opposed to the wild imaginings and misguided extrapolations of said contributor.
627 Re: Club Future - Administration or bust? Tue Apr 09 2019, 11:54
wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
I'm not that down with the kids as regards emojis.Sluffy wrote:wanderlust wrote:Ignoring the rantings of the deranged, increasingly desperate and clearly confused "contributor" on a mission above, another rumour put forward by "Howard" was that Moonshift triggered the clause whereby if Anderson defaulted on the loan repayments he would forfeit his shares, thereby losing control.
That clause required that Anderson would have 14 days from the date of triggering to sort it out and the stage payment was guesstimated to be around £2 million.
If true, the 14 days notice is up today or tomorrow (the date I mistook for the winding up hearing date) which means that Anderson would have to find the money himself or get Bassini or A.N. Other to front it in order to retain control of the sale.
Failure to do so would mean that Moonshift could then sell the club to their preferred bidder under the terms they want.
If this turns out to be true, there may be some action over the next 36 hours as Anderson scrambles to retain control, but we'll see.
BTW i don't like being accused of "lying through my teeth", so would someone be kind enough to ask the "contributor" to signpost me to where I have allegedly said that I "hate" Anderson? I had a quick look, and whilst I found hundreds of instances where I have said I don't trust him and am suspicious of his motives (which is and always has been my opinion) I am struggling to find a single instance where I actually said I hate him. There may be an isolated case somewhere in the annals of time but I would be very surprised as I don't (yet) and therefore can't see any reason why I would have said it.
Whilst he's at it, he might also signpost where I have said "I am smarter" than other posters.
To my knowledge, the only poster who has ever insinuated this is the said contributor (I'm flattered, but would never suggest it myself as I don't believe I am) so evidence please seeing that "facts" are apparently more important than opinions (on a footie forum???) - as opposed to the wild imaginings and misguided extrapolations of said contributor.
Does that one mean you are busy looking for the evidence to back up your accusations and you'll get back to me?
Can't wait to see if it's going to be the usual one fact followed by 10 paragraphs of unrelated abuse or whether you're just going to go quiet for six weeks like the last time I asked you to back up your personal attacks with facts.
Actually I can wait as I honestly don't give a shit about what you think - or what you think what I think for that matter.
628 Re: Club Future - Administration or bust? Tue Apr 09 2019, 15:30
Hipster_Nebula
Nat Lofthouse
Embarrassing from lusty.
629 Re: Club Future - Administration or bust? Tue Apr 09 2019, 15:55
Cajunboy
Frank Worthington
Could it be that the negotiations are not going well , because he looks like a toad?
Toads never get a good press.
Toads never get a good press.
630 Re: Club Future - Administration or bust? Tue Apr 09 2019, 16:04
Cajunboy
Frank Worthington
Why is this thread titled "Club nearly sold?"
631 Re: Club Future - Administration or bust? Tue Apr 09 2019, 16:07
Sluffy
Admin
wanderlust wrote:I'm not that down with the kids as regards emojis.Sluffy wrote:wanderlust wrote:Ignoring the rantings of the deranged, increasingly desperate and clearly confused "contributor" on a mission above, another rumour put forward by "Howard" was that Moonshift triggered the clause whereby if Anderson defaulted on the loan repayments he would forfeit his shares, thereby losing control.
That clause required that Anderson would have 14 days from the date of triggering to sort it out and the stage payment was guesstimated to be around £2 million.
If true, the 14 days notice is up today or tomorrow (the date I mistook for the winding up hearing date) which means that Anderson would have to find the money himself or get Bassini or A.N. Other to front it in order to retain control of the sale.
Failure to do so would mean that Moonshift could then sell the club to their preferred bidder under the terms they want.
If this turns out to be true, there may be some action over the next 36 hours as Anderson scrambles to retain control, but we'll see.
BTW i don't like being accused of "lying through my teeth", so would someone be kind enough to ask the "contributor" to signpost me to where I have allegedly said that I "hate" Anderson? I had a quick look, and whilst I found hundreds of instances where I have said I don't trust him and am suspicious of his motives (which is and always has been my opinion) I am struggling to find a single instance where I actually said I hate him. There may be an isolated case somewhere in the annals of time but I would be very surprised as I don't (yet) and therefore can't see any reason why I would have said it.
Whilst he's at it, he might also signpost where I have said "I am smarter" than other posters.
To my knowledge, the only poster who has ever insinuated this is the said contributor (I'm flattered, but would never suggest it myself as I don't believe I am) so evidence please seeing that "facts" are apparently more important than opinions (on a footie forum???) - as opposed to the wild imaginings and misguided extrapolations of said contributor.
Does that one mean you are busy looking for the evidence to back up your accusations and you'll get back to me?
Can't wait to see if it's going to be the usual one fact followed by 10 paragraphs of unrelated abuse or whether you're just going to go quiet for six weeks like the last time I asked you to back up your personal attacks with facts.
Actually I can wait as I honestly don't give a shit about what you think - or what you think what I think for that matter.
I was lost for words quite frankly as to how vile and obnoxious you really are.
I don't need to go searching through your three year tirade of self-opinionated shite that you've posted about Anderson and occasionally his son, to prove you wrong and highlight your abuse of them - and me.
We all remember you telling us that he won't/hasn't put any money into the club, that he would never spend money on a player transfer or that Ron Billionaire was going to buy us out of Administration for example.
As someone who doesn't apparently give a shit about me, you've posted a huge amount of personal abuse over the last three years - particularly about my mental health and apparent lack of intelligence - including 'deranged', 'confused' and have an inability to 'extrapolate' what you have said presumably because I'm not as smart as you, just totally thick, or both - all of which you say I am in just the two posts quoted from you above!
As for not giving a shit what I think about you - well there is a lie from you right there!
Carry on embarrassing yourself.
632 Re: Club Future - Administration or bust? Tue Apr 09 2019, 16:53
wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
So nothing then. Apart from another rant, more presumptions about "what I'm thinking" and another lie about me saying that Ron Burkle was going to buy us out of admin, when in fact I said I hoped he would but I felt it was too late and that he was too pissed off with Anderson.
Meanwhile in the real world (or more accurately in the rumour world) "Howard's" suggestion that the deadline for Ken's Moonshift loan repayment - or ceding the shares - has now passed, so either we get an announcement - say tomorrow - or Howard is wumming.
Personally I hope Howard is telling the truth and there is indeed a reputable consortium waiting in the wings ready to deal with Moonshift.
Ken, it has been suggested, is on holiday in Dubai. All rumours of course, so we're still really none the wiser as to our fate. Could be soon though.
Meanwhile in the real world (or more accurately in the rumour world) "Howard's" suggestion that the deadline for Ken's Moonshift loan repayment - or ceding the shares - has now passed, so either we get an announcement - say tomorrow - or Howard is wumming.
Personally I hope Howard is telling the truth and there is indeed a reputable consortium waiting in the wings ready to deal with Moonshift.
Ken, it has been suggested, is on holiday in Dubai. All rumours of course, so we're still really none the wiser as to our fate. Could be soon though.
633 Re: Club Future - Administration or bust? Wed Apr 10 2019, 13:11
wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Well "Howard" has rocked up again and dropped a bombshell. If it's true we're well and truly f****d:
I suppose it is time that I clarified the position we find ourselves in. As previously discussed, we retain the right to purchase the debt relating to the ICI-Moonshift transaction. This debt is now in default and ICI have now served their 14 day notice period for recalling the collateral. This means that we can, if we so choose, take control of Burnden Leisure and subsequently BWFC.
The issue's that we face are as follows:
Whilst quite prepared to pay off the £28.9M debt, and in fact any other legitimate debts, we are not prepared to cover the additional £26.6M loss that we will incur by writing off the inter company obligation owed by ICI whilst also paying off the associated factoring companies.. When the opportunity was initially pitched to us it was initimated that a deal would involve the partial-total repayment of this, this however is not now the case. Whilst we could choose to liquidate ICI, it is unlikely that we will be able to recover any funds. We also have the very real prospect that any of the factoring companies could jump on to the WU petition if we satisfied all other creditors.
Of the £28.9M, we had anticipated being able recover some of the investment through re-development of the car parks, the building of a secondary hotel on the Hotel car park and selling the rights to an access road for the new Bolton West road system. This combined with a payment against the £13.3M would have gotten us to a point of comfort in respect of losses over the next 3 years.
So where are we now? We are talking to two of the previously interested parties (Not Bassini) about recalling the shares, funding administration and then loaning them funds to purchase the business from administration. We are discussing us being able to convert this loan to equity at a fixed point in the future. The issue with this is of course the transfer embargo combined with the loss of ups to 14 senior players, leaving a threadbare squad and a fairly bleak campaign.
As each day goes by and more & more bills are missed, the debt increases and it becomes much less appetising for a potential buyer, for example they are now £1.7M higher than when FV first started to look at the club and with a future payment already taken (EFL).
Ultimately administration is going to be the only option to shed the debt, it is still going to require £22-£25M but that is probably acceptable to a consortium looking for a slow re-build, this is typically a fans-backed consortium or involving local people. We ourselves wouldn't be looking for a slow re-build.
I appreciate that this isn't what you wish to hear, but when overall debts turn out to be nearly double the previously stated, it dopes change the attractiveness of an investment.
I suppose it is time that I clarified the position we find ourselves in. As previously discussed, we retain the right to purchase the debt relating to the ICI-Moonshift transaction. This debt is now in default and ICI have now served their 14 day notice period for recalling the collateral. This means that we can, if we so choose, take control of Burnden Leisure and subsequently BWFC.
The issue's that we face are as follows:
Whilst quite prepared to pay off the £28.9M debt, and in fact any other legitimate debts, we are not prepared to cover the additional £26.6M loss that we will incur by writing off the inter company obligation owed by ICI whilst also paying off the associated factoring companies.. When the opportunity was initially pitched to us it was initimated that a deal would involve the partial-total repayment of this, this however is not now the case. Whilst we could choose to liquidate ICI, it is unlikely that we will be able to recover any funds. We also have the very real prospect that any of the factoring companies could jump on to the WU petition if we satisfied all other creditors.
Of the £28.9M, we had anticipated being able recover some of the investment through re-development of the car parks, the building of a secondary hotel on the Hotel car park and selling the rights to an access road for the new Bolton West road system. This combined with a payment against the £13.3M would have gotten us to a point of comfort in respect of losses over the next 3 years.
So where are we now? We are talking to two of the previously interested parties (Not Bassini) about recalling the shares, funding administration and then loaning them funds to purchase the business from administration. We are discussing us being able to convert this loan to equity at a fixed point in the future. The issue with this is of course the transfer embargo combined with the loss of ups to 14 senior players, leaving a threadbare squad and a fairly bleak campaign.
As each day goes by and more & more bills are missed, the debt increases and it becomes much less appetising for a potential buyer, for example they are now £1.7M higher than when FV first started to look at the club and with a future payment already taken (EFL).
Ultimately administration is going to be the only option to shed the debt, it is still going to require £22-£25M but that is probably acceptable to a consortium looking for a slow re-build, this is typically a fans-backed consortium or involving local people. We ourselves wouldn't be looking for a slow re-build.
I appreciate that this isn't what you wish to hear, but when overall debts turn out to be nearly double the previously stated, it dopes change the attractiveness of an investment.
634 Re: Club Future - Administration or bust? Wed Apr 10 2019, 13:27
Norpig
Nat Lofthouse
If this is true then as Lusty says we are fucked! Transfer embargo, 9 senior players only under contract and a minus 12 points to start the season.
Not sure what half of the financial jargon means but it doesn't sound good!
Not sure what half of the financial jargon means but it doesn't sound good!
635 Re: Club Future - Administration or bust? Wed Apr 10 2019, 13:35
Cajunboy
Frank Worthington
It's not looking good, to put it mildly.
636 Re: Club Future - Administration or bust? Wed Apr 10 2019, 13:47
boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
I'm normally pretty optimistic, but there's an all pervading air of decay surrounding the club.
You could almost taste it last night.
You could almost taste it last night.
637 Re: Club Future - Administration or bust? Wed Apr 10 2019, 13:47
Natasha Whittam
Nat Lofthouse
It's about time the mods on this site decided whether this is Bolton Nuts or Wanderers Ways.
To quote one of the mods:
Perhaps you could enforce this.
To quote one of the mods:
Sluffy wrote:I'd politely request that you keep stuff from other forums off Nuts
Perhaps you could enforce this.
638 Re: Club Future - Administration or bust? Wed Apr 10 2019, 13:50
Cajunboy
Frank Worthington
Could somebody shed some light on Inner Circle's £26 million "inter company obligation" for the less informed of us please?
How did this debt come about and why is the club responsible for it?
Is this all loans made to Anderson by Moonshift?
And this is in addition to the £29 million debt of BL i.e. £55million to buy the club?
How did this debt come about and why is the club responsible for it?
Is this all loans made to Anderson by Moonshift?
And this is in addition to the £29 million debt of BL i.e. £55million to buy the club?
639 Re: Club Future - Administration or bust? Wed Apr 10 2019, 14:01
Cajunboy
Frank Worthington
Just a few old men wearing slippers.boltonbonce wrote:I'm normally pretty optimistic, but there's an all pervading air of decay surrounding the club.
You could almost taste it last night.
640 Re: Club Future - Administration or bust? Wed Apr 10 2019, 14:03
boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
And they were our players!Cajunboy wrote:Just a few old men wearing slippers.boltonbonce wrote:I'm normally pretty optimistic, but there's an all pervading air of decay surrounding the club.
You could almost taste it last night.
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