How is the Tory government doing?

wanderlust wrote:

gloswhite wrote:I was expecting a kicking, (which in fairness I would have deserved). We didn't vote for this at all. I really don't see how you can come to this conclusion. I would say non attendance now would be down to the virus much more than any political decisions, especially taking into consideration that the government has acknowledged the problem and will allow these people in.

Quite right Glos. Nobody voted for it as our dependence on international trade, EU supply chains, EU and other foreign workers in our hospitals/other institutions and seasonal migrant workers was downplayed in the referendum and I don't believe many leave voters had a clue about the ramifications of what they were voting for.

Conversely, if they did fully understand what the impact on our key sectors would be it was incredibly irresponsible so it's probably best just to say they didn't know.

Personally I blame the Remain campaign for not adequately pointing out the benefits of membership. Huge parallels with the Monty Python "what have the Romans done for us?" sketch.

Can you honestly tell me that the migrant pickers carried much weight, at the time, with the Leavers argument? Like just everything else, they were mentioned, but its being emphasized now, whilst we are still in the negotiating phase that all these problems are with us.
You know Wander, I like your postings, but sometimes you come across as a very intelligent man, having quite a bitter and twisted outlook on life. Having said that, I suppose I come across as the eternal optimist who, according to TROY, ignores the bad things in life. I think we'll get on fine 

gloswhite wrote:

wanderlust wrote:

gloswhite wrote:I was expecting a kicking, (which in fairness I would have deserved). We didn't vote for this at all. I really don't see how you can come to this conclusion. I would say non attendance now would be down to the virus much more than any political decisions, especially taking into consideration that the government has acknowledged the problem and will allow these people in.

Quite right Glos. Nobody voted for it as our dependence on international trade, EU supply chains, EU and other foreign workers in our hospitals/other institutions and seasonal migrant workers was downplayed in the referendum and I don't believe many leave voters had a clue about the ramifications of what they were voting for.

Conversely, if they did fully understand what the impact on our key sectors would be it was incredibly irresponsible so it's probably best just to say they didn't know.

Personally I blame the Remain campaign for not adequately pointing out the benefits of membership. Huge parallels with the Monty Python "what have the Romans done for us?" sketch.

Can you honestly tell me that the migrant pickers carried much weight, at the time, with the Leavers argument? Like just everything else, they were mentioned, but its being emphasized now, whilst we are still in the negotiating phase that all these problems are with us.
You know Wander, I like your postings, but sometimes you come across as a very intelligent man, having quite a bitter and twisted outlook on life. Having said that, I suppose I come across as the eternal optimist who, according to TROY, ignores the bad things in life. I think we'll get on fine 

You'd be bitter and twisted if you lived in Norfolk.

Cajunboy wrote:

gloswhite wrote:

wanderlust wrote:

gloswhite wrote:I was expecting a kicking, (which in fairness I would have deserved). We didn't vote for this at all. I really don't see how you can come to this conclusion. I would say non attendance now would be down to the virus much more than any political decisions, especially taking into consideration that the government has acknowledged the problem and will allow these people in.

Quite right Glos. Nobody voted for it as our dependence on international trade, EU supply chains, EU and other foreign workers in our hospitals/other institutions and seasonal migrant workers was downplayed in the referendum and I don't believe many leave voters had a clue about the ramifications of what they were voting for.

Conversely, if they did fully understand what the impact on our key sectors would be it was incredibly irresponsible so it's probably best just to say they didn't know.

Personally I blame the Remain campaign for not adequately pointing out the benefits of membership. Huge parallels with the Monty Python "what have the Romans done for us?" sketch.

Can you honestly tell me that the migrant pickers carried much weight, at the time, with the Leavers argument? Like just everything else, they were mentioned, but its being emphasized now, whilst we are still in the negotiating phase that all these problems are with us.
You know Wander, I like your postings, but sometimes you come across as a very intelligent man, having quite a bitter and twisted outlook on life. Having said that, I suppose I come across as the eternal optimist who, according to TROY, ignores the bad things in life. I think we'll get on fine 

You'd be bitter and twisted if you lived in Norfolk.

My sister-in-law does.

I'm pretty sure Bob & Okocha are in competition.

xmiles wrote:

Cajunboy wrote:

gloswhite wrote:

wanderlust wrote:

gloswhite wrote:I was expecting a kicking, (which in fairness I would have deserved). We didn't vote for this at all. I really don't see how you can come to this conclusion. I would say non attendance now would be down to the virus much more than any political decisions, especially taking into consideration that the government has acknowledged the problem and will allow these people in.

Quite right Glos. Nobody voted for it as our dependence on international trade, EU supply chains, EU and other foreign workers in our hospitals/other institutions and seasonal migrant workers was downplayed in the referendum and I don't believe many leave voters had a clue about the ramifications of what they were voting for.

Conversely, if they did fully understand what the impact on our key sectors would be it was incredibly irresponsible so it's probably best just to say they didn't know.

Personally I blame the Remain campaign for not adequately pointing out the benefits of membership. Huge parallels with the Monty Python "what have the Romans done for us?" sketch.

Can you honestly tell me that the migrant pickers carried much weight, at the time, with the Leavers argument? Like just everything else, they were mentioned, but its being emphasized now, whilst we are still in the negotiating phase that all these problems are with us.
You know Wander, I like your postings, but sometimes you come across as a very intelligent man, having quite a bitter and twisted outlook on life. Having said that, I suppose I come across as the eternal optimist who, according to TROY, ignores the bad things in life. I think we'll get on fine 

You'd be bitter and twisted if you lived in Norfolk.

 My sister-in-law does.

Sorry, I'm sure your sister-in-law is delightful.

The coastal area from Hunstanton to Cromer and inland to Holt is a lovely area and we once considered moving there.  It really is another world. We used to enjoy having holidays there.

They'll all be needing wellies there soon Cajun.

Natasha Whittam wrote:I'm pretty sure Bob & Okocha are in competition.

Can you explain that? Government's doing well according to Dale Vince.
As I don't believe Vince, does that mean it isn't?

When Piers Morgan is criticising the governments response I think we can all agree there are valid questions to be asked, and it’s not just ‘political prejudices’. They need to be scrutinised - 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8175857/Piers-Morgan-NHS-heroes-led-donkeys-Boris-overrule-experts-tests.html

Classy.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52653609

okocha wrote:Brits will be the only citizens of a Western European country unable to travel, work, study and retire freely across their own continent.

The biggest retraction in freedoms in living memory.


Thanks, Priti Patel, for your thoughtful immigration bill.

Well that's untrue for a start!

If we are cut off from the rest of western Europe in those regards then it automatically follows that they are impacted in just the same way in wishing to do those things here.

I do wish you would post your sources.

The quote comes from Seb Dance, Labour MEP (former now obviously as we are no longer in the EU).

Wonder if he's a bit sour about losing all this money for no longer being an MEP! -

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48037162

Brits will be the only citizens of a Western European country unable to travel, work, study and retire freely across their own continent.

The biggest retraction in freedoms in living memory. https://t.co/0o24YlBEgB

— Seb Dance (@SebDance) May 18, 2020

Sluffy, I'm sure you're bright enough to appreciate that we'd be losing the freedom to travel, work, study, retire in multiple countries, each of which would be simply losing out on those freedoms in ONE country:-OURS! 

Recent times have shown how much our citizens, including the PM himself, have come to value and rely on vital "unskilled" workers. Isn't that what we've been clapping for on Thursday evenings? 
Not just for expert medical staff, but for carers, porters, delivery drivers, supermarket staff, teachers, cleaners etc. etc.

I'm not interested in arguments on here just for argument's sake.

okocha wrote:Sluffy, I'm sure you're bright enough to appreciate that we'd be losing the freedom to travel, work, study, retire in multiple countries, each of which would be simply losing out on those freedoms in ONE country:-OURS! 

Recent times have shown how much our citizens, including the PM himself, have come to value and rely on vital "unskilled" workers. Isn't that what we've been clapping for on Thursday evenings? 
Not just for expert medical staff, but for carers, porters, delivery drivers, supermarket staff, teachers, cleaners etc. etc.

I'm not interested in arguments on here just for argument's sake.

And I'm not interested in mistruth's to make political points.

If the point stands there is no need to lie.

If it needs a lie then what's the point in even discussing it?

Anyway I'm old enough to remember life before we joined the precursor of the EU (the EEC) and people still travelled, worked, studied and even retired to other country's - so that's not going to be stopped, just that it may cost more and involve more paperwork.

It then becomes more of an 'economic' choice to do those things than an automatic right.

You might even wish to consider if those choices we had whilst we were in the EU for all those years were indeed so 'good' and 'free' then why has more people immigrated into GB from the EU than visa-versa?

EU born residents in the UK and British born residents in the EU in 2015

EU Born in the UK/ Country / UK born in the EU

26,000 AUSTRIA 11,000
32,000 BELGIUM 27,000
77,000 BULGARIA 5,000
6,000 CROATIA 500
31,000 CYPRUS 41,000
42,000 CZECHREPUBLIC 5,000
24,000 DENMARK 19,000
18,000 ESTONIA 500
7,000 FINLAND 7,000
176,000 FRANCE 185,000
297,000 GERMANY 103,000
72,000 GREECE 18,000
87,000 HUNGARY 7,000
411,000 IRELAND 255,000
204,000 ITALY 65,000
96,000 LATVIA 1,000
147,000 LITHUANIA 3,000
1,000 LUXEMBOURG 7,000
20,000 MALTA 12,000
79,000 NETHERLANDS 50,000
883,000 POLAND 35,000
132,000 PORTUGAL 18,000
229,000 ROMANIA 3,000
63,000 SLOVAKIA 5,000
1,000 SLOVENIA 500
35,000 SWEDEN 25,000
129,000 SPAIN 309,000

3,325,000 TOTAL 1,217,500

https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/354
https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/bulletins/uklabourmarket/2015-10-14

I have no idea what you think you are proving by quoting numbers showing 3m people from the EU moving here compared to 2m British moving the other way. Since the population of the EU excluding the UK is 380m and the UK population is 67m your figures show proportionately far more UK citizens moving to the EU than the other way round i.e. the exact opposite of what you appear to be arguing.

And incidentally it is vice versa not visa-versa.

xmiles wrote:I have no idea what you think you are proving by quoting numbers showing 3m people from the EU moving here compared to 2m British moving the other way. Since the population of the EU excluding the UK is 380m and the UK population is 67m your figures show proportionately far more UK citizens moving to the EU than the other way round i.e. the exact opposite of what you appear to be arguing.

And incidentally it is vice versa not visa-versa.

Think you proved my point actually.

Out of 67m UK people only 2m think the 'freedoms' to go to EU countries is so worthwhile and more so that out of 380m EU citizens only 3m think it's worth bothering about coming here to reside?

Out of a total of just short of 450m people only 5m (0.2%) think the freedom is actually worth acting upon!!!

What's the point of it really if you look at it that way?

Sluffy wrote:

xmiles wrote:I have no idea what you think you are proving by quoting numbers showing 3m people from the EU moving here compared to 2m British moving the other way. Since the population of the EU excluding the UK is 380m and the UK population is 67m your figures show proportionately far more UK citizens moving to the EU than the other way round i.e. the exact opposite of what you appear to be arguing.

And incidentally it is vice versa not visa-versa.

Think you proved my point actually.

Out of 67m UK people only 2m think the 'freedoms' to go to EU countries is so worthwhile and more so that out of 380m EU citizens only 3m think it's worth bothering about coming here to reside?

Out of a total of just short of 450m people only 5m (0.2%) think the freedom is actually worth acting upon!!!

What's the point of it really if you look at it that way?

You said "You might even wish to consider if those choices we had whilst we were in the EU for all those years were indeed so 'good' and 'free' then why has{sic} more people immigrated into GB from the EU than visa-versa?"

So when I demonstrate that proportionately the exact opposite to what you said is true you claim that I proved your point.