Coronavirus - the political argument

You honestly believe the media influenced government policy and they've kept them on the right path since?

Really???

Ok, you're entitled to believe whatever you want.

People believe 5G is causing all this and that's why they've been burning down the masts - doesn't mean they're right about it though.

I tend to believe real life events bring about the required actions not media political sniping - such as the constant issue with PPE - yes we know we haven't got it right for the front line staff - don't they think the government DIDN'T KNOW that - but how is ongoing point scoring by them going to change anything - most of the world is scrambling about for PPE equipment for their own front line staff and there is only a finite supply at anyone time?

Anyway for what it's worth I've always been apolitical and think particularly at times like this we should all be doing our bests to beat this and hold a stewards enquiry after the race has finished - and not during it.

Perhaps I hope too much from my fellow man at times, unfortunately.


Fwiw also I've never said the government were holding back PPE - you've clearly read into something that simply was never there.

Please stop trying to spin what im saying. I’m taking about the reporting of facts, not ‘political point scoring’. One of the strongest proponents of this has been Piers Morgan, so I think that goes to show how apolitical this issue is.

I think the media (and public opinion in general) has a sway on political policy. If you disagree, great let’s leave it at that. Please don’t try and paint my views alongside nutters who believe 5G has caused this, it’s condescending/rude and nothing more

Here’s what you accused me of on PPE, I’ve never said anything even close to that. So don’t know what you’re getting at:

Sluffy wrote:
do you or anyone else really believe it's been a political decision to deliberately deprive staff of protective clothing or condemn people to death because of some sort of Conservative agenda to win the General Election in 2024 - that's just madness thinking.

I'm not spinning anything.

I don't follow Morgan or anyone else thank you, I think for myself, I don't need social media 'influencers', to do that for me unlike many it seems.

If you want to believe the media is only "reporting the facts" then fine - why then do they go on about the same thing like PPE then day after day after day for weeks?  

PPE can't magically appear once it's known there are shortages - there's obviously going to be a delay between the need and being able to satisfy it.  Maybe it is because they've got column inches/air time to fill, advertising spaces to sell and certain socio-political customers/consumers to satisfy perhaps?

As for what you quote me on above, it was simply in reply to you -

T.R.O.Y. wrote:Very important to be able to spot the difference between ‘point scoring’ and proper scrutiny. I applaud those in the media who have continued to scrutinise the gaps in government policy (slow response, lack of tests, lack of PPE and herd immunity strategy). Keeping the focus on the right areas will hone our response and make sure we’re travelling in the right direction - it’s arguably never been more important.

Nowhere have I ever suggested the government had stocks of PPE they where holding back from the front line or something - that's your imagination making that up!

What I was saying is that clearly were totally unprepared for the relatively tsunami of need once the virus hit, which they hadn't prepared for because the medical advise they were following was modelled on the 'questionable' data from Chinese outbreak.

Of course we should learn what went wrong and why but now is clearly not the time - maybe it is for you though?

We really need to park politics for now, all come together and help beat this - plenty time for recriminations afterwards.

As for being rude/condescending you make me laugh!

If you really believe the media keeps any government in check is about as believable as 5G being to blame for coronavirus, to me.

America's got the freest media in the world and they've ended up with a Trump Administration since 2016 - certainly kept him "travelling in the right direction" hasn't it!!!

Sluffy - it's almost as if you don't read the posts properly before you respond. Almost your entire reply is incorrect.

Sluffy wrote:If you want to believe the media is only "reporting the facts" then fine - why then do they go on about the same thing like PPE then day after day after day for weeks?  

Here's what was actually said:

T.R.O.Y. wrote:I’m taking about the reporting of facts, not ‘political point scoring’. 

You're either spinning the above, or you haven't read it - because that sentence does not say, 'the media is only reporting the facts'.

Sluffy wrote:Nowhere have I ever suggested the government had stocks of PPE they where holding back from the front line or something - that's your imagination making that up!

I never said you did? I was questioning the below, where you ask me if i believe it was a political decision to deprive staff of PPE - to be crystal for you (again): no I don't and (more importantly) where have you got that from?

Sluffy wrote:but as I say do you or anyone else really believe it's been a political decision to deliberately deprive staff of protective clothing or condemn people to death because of some sort of Conservative agenda to win the General Election in 2024 - that's just madness thinking.

You even somehow get on to media freedom suggesting a free media has no impact on government policy - Trump and the US used as an example. 

It's an incredibly tenuous link to my point, but if anything it proves it. 

In every case (that I can think of) an authoritarian government has cracked down on press freedoms - hence a more liberal society is more likely to have media input and influence over the political landscape.




Final question from me, you were too emotionally invested to discuss this with me before - hence I got banned. Why are you suddenly so desperate to get into this?

T.R.O.Y. wrote:
You're either spinning the above, or you haven't read it - because that sentence does not say, 'the media is only reporting the facts'.

Well if they are reporting more than the facts they must ergo be making comment to - and that being political comment.

Political comment obvious is influenced from which side of the fence you stand and therefore must me be point scoring either for or against the point you are writing about.

T.R.O.Y. wrote:I never said you did? I was questioning the below, where you ask me if i believe it was a political decision to deprive staff of PPE - to be crystal for you (again): no I don't and (more importantly) where have you got that from?

Eh?

I never said it was a political it was a political decision to deprive staff of PPE, or that they had stocks they had and hadn't distributed them - all that is your imagination of what you think I said.

What I was simply saying is that the government didn't politically NOT order PPE (think being part of the EU procurement order) simply because of a strategy they had to win the 2024 general election - as was what some people firmly believed had happened and said so on here.

You've clearly interpreted what I said in a way that was never meant.

T.R.O.Y. wrote:You even somehow get on to media freedom suggesting a free media has no impact on government policy - Trump and the US used as an example. 

It's an incredibly tenuous link to my point, but if anything it proves it. 

In every case (that I can think of) an authoritarian government has cracked down on press freedoms - hence a more liberal society is more likely to have media input and influence over the political landscape.

Hahaha.

Yes it most prove it because all the governments in the free world are doing exactly what the media wants of them!!!

How idiotic of you in even suggesting that???

Most media are 'owned' by wealthy men such as Murdoch - I'm sure HM Government are as willing to dance to their tune as Trump, Macron or Merkel are - which non of them are!

It is good to have a free press and to express opinions - nothing wrong at all in that.  What I am saying is that sometimes 'less is better' - this crisis right now being one of those times.

T.R.O.Y. wrote:
Final question from me, you were too emotionally invested to discuss this with me before - hence I got banned. Why are you suddenly so desperate to get into this?

What makes you think I was being emotional on the thread for just my own benefit?

Further more if you KNEW I was that emotional about the thread then why did you deliberately and knowingly carried on arguing with me until it became quite clear to everyone you were never going to stop?

Anyway I'm not desperate to 'get into this' at all.

I'm not able to make the political parties, media, or even posters on here to all come together and be united in fighting this first and foremost and learn from what went wrong afterwards and there's clearly only one way you understand about letting something drop on a highly personal and sensitive thread to some, knowing you can say whatever you wanted to elsewhere on the forum.

It should never have got to that stage but clearly you had deliberately and calculatedly, decided to "get into this" on a thread you KNEW was causing distress to others - even if you thought that was only me!

If that's not point scoring, trolling and making things personal from you, then I don't know what is.

Not your finest moment.

How did I know you were too emotionally invested to discuss it with me? - because that’s what you wrote on the message when you banned me.

So again I ask, how is this different? You ban me on one thread from talking about politics because it’s too personal for you - but spend half an evening on this thread talking about it?

T.R.O.Y. wrote:How did I know you were too emotionally invested to discuss it with me? - because that’s what you wrote on the message when you banned me.

So again I ask, how is this different? You ban me on one thread from talking about politics because it’s too personal for you - but spend half an evening on this thread talking about it?

Because I'd made it abundantly clear throughout that particular thread, here's just one example directed directly to you -

Sluffy wrote:

T.R.O.Y wrote:

Sluffy wrote:There's a few decent people about and I'm sure some will do the right thing - unfortunately though I expect most won't - just look at Wheater etc, striking for their wages (which they knew full well they would get in the end) when the club was broke and staff were having to go to foodbanks to eat,

Why didn't the millionaire Wheater dip in his pocket and do the right thing rather than getting pissed up down the pub again?

Why can't you and nutjob grasp that this is bigger than your football prejudices and put away your pathetic point scoring until this thing has been beaten?

Put away your fishing rod.

I've asked you countless times not to start arguments on THIS particular thread but it seems you can't accept this straightforward, unambiguous and poignant request.

Leave your issues/point scoring with me OFF here.

Read Cajun and Johnny's posts above - that's what this thread is about not you or the other nutjob wanting to piss all over it for your own amusement, self-gratification.

I can't make it any clearer or simpler to you.

If you can't accept that like everyone else is, then go post some place else.

You made it personal to keep on doing so - presumably for your amusement at trying to wind me up.

You made a complete and utter dick of yourself instead.

To be frank I've never cared what you or anyone else on the internet thinks about me but I did care that it was distressing others by what you were deliberately doing.

You obviously weren't going to stop and so I put an end to it.

I'd do exactly the same again if I had to.

Without hesitation.

You are a good poster and I'm happy to see you back but the sites bigger than you scoring points off me.

Shame you seem to be incapable of accepting that.

Yes that post was to mock you a bit - thought you could handle a joke. All I did was post my opinions on the thread as any other poster had been throughout - Ten Bob even got on to Dale Vince somehow but that’s fine with you because it’s an opinion you like.

One last time anyway, how is this thread different?

I haven't bothered reading this last string of 'I said, you said', but what I will say is that I believe both of you have valid points. The government was slow on the uptake, both with wrong information from the likes of China, lack of PPE etc, because some countries, (Germany/China), who produce such things, had the vision to lock down the export and supply to other countries initially.
I also believe we were slow to lock down and Boris expected people to be sensible rather than flood the parks and public areas on sunny days. (Boris, when you're working with the great British public, don't give them them any wriggle room). I've never seen so many runners and dog walkers.
What I do find a little worrying is that now that Boris is in dock, there doesn't seem to be anyone prepared to take hold of the reins. I have always liked Raab, but he's coming across like a rabbit in the headlights, even without the press all piling in on him for what they see as indecision.
I agree with TROY that actions of the current situation should be analysed, but as Sluffy says, there's a time and place, and I feel that it should be once we have come out of lock down and had time to see what the situation is. The political point scoring isn't being carried out by many, although I was disappointed to hear Jess Philips and Angela Rayner on TV the other day, both launching straight into what was wrong, very very little about what had been achieved. 
The Chinese managed to let the people of Wutan out after 11 weeks, but that was with some serious lock downs that many over here would riot over. I think many of you will be joining the likes of Cajun and myself who are in for the long haul of 12 weeks, and then of course we oldies/vulnerable will be the last ones to be allowed to circulate freely, so it wouldn't surprise me to see that 12 weeks extended.

T.R.O.Y. wrote:Yes that post was to mock you a bit - thought you could handle a joke. All I did was post my opinions on the thread as any other poster had been throughout - Ten Bob even got on to Dale Vince somehow but that’s fine with you because it’s an opinion you like.

One last time anyway, how is this thread different?

You really don't know???

It keeps arguments off the one where people could talk about their hopes and fears free from such shite.  People who are at genuinely at risk of dying, or who have loved ones who are if they catch this.

As for Dale Vince I have no interest at all in him, no one other than Bob has, obviously it is his bee in his bonnet - but it would never lead to an argument let alone an endless one as such.

I don't expect the thread to be gloomy and reverential completely but I hoped it would be respectful and compassionate towards everyone who was facing the virus knowing if they caught it had a realistic chance of killing them/their mother(bonce), brother(me), etc.

It was to deal with issues in the frighteningly real world at the moment and not yet another thread for some to play out their internet issues yet again for their own personal amusement and fuck everybody else.

This really shouldn't have been needed to be spelt out to you or anyone else.

It says so much that it did have to in your case.

Sluffy wrote:

T.R.O.Y. wrote:Yes that post was to mock you a bit - thought you could handle a joke. All I did was post my opinions on the thread as any other poster had been throughout - Ten Bob even got on to Dale Vince somehow but that’s fine with you because it’s an opinion you like.

One last time anyway, how is this thread different?

You really don't know???

It keeps arguments off the one where people could talk about their hopes and fears free from such shite.  People who are at genuinely at risk of dying, or who have loved ones who are if they catch this.

Yet your mate Ten Bob is free to post whatever he wants on there? See the double standards?

Doubt even you’re so one eyed not to be able to - but perhaps I’m wrong. You’ve had this kind of behaviour spelt out to you by numerous different posters over the years and no difference made, so I don’t know why I bother trying to hold a mirror up to it.

You both need to put an end to this nonsense now as it isn't getting anybody anywhere at all.

Whilst getting back on topic the Labour Mayor Sheila Oakes has been booted out of the Labour party for the comments about Boris Johnson.

karlypants wrote:You both need to put an end to this nonsense now as it isn't getting anybody anywhere at all.

Yes agreed.

karlypants wrote:Whilst getting back on topic the Labour Mayor Sheila Oakes has been booted out of the Labour party for the comments about Boris Johnson.

Saw that, good to read they acted quickly and didn’t even consider keeping her on.

T.R.O.Y. wrote:

Sluffy wrote:

T.R.O.Y. wrote:Yes that post was to mock you a bit - thought you could handle a joke. All I did was post my opinions on the thread as any other poster had been throughout - Ten Bob even got on to Dale Vince somehow but that’s fine with you because it’s an opinion you like.

One last time anyway, how is this thread different?

You really don't know???

It keeps arguments off the one where people could talk about their hopes and fears free from such shite.  People who are at genuinely at risk of dying, or who have loved ones who are if they catch this.

Yet your mate Ten Bob is free to post whatever he wants on there? See the double standards?

Doubt even you’re so one eyed not to be able to - but perhaps I’m wrong. You’ve had this kind of behaviour spelt out to you by numerous different posters over the years and no difference made, so I don’t know why I bother trying to hold a mirror up to it.

Sums you up mate.

You're so keen to put someone like me right who you believe to be wrong on the internet that you lose sight of real life.

Maybe I am wrong at times but is that worth genuinely upsetting real live people to make your point?

Obviously to you it is.

Yet another one who can't tell the difference between an internet grudge and real life.

Perhaps you should take the plank out of your own eye first before you take the speck out of mine?

Maybe you need to look in the mirror too!

As for Ten Bob, is anyone arguing with him, is he distressing people by looking for a deliberate reaction?

No he's not - unlike you.

Nobody was distressed by my posts. So give it a rest and move on for your own and the forums sake, you’re tying yourself up in knots trying to justify this rubbish.

I was drawn to read this thread because of the title, what i found was not political but "Corona virus another in house arguement"  But whatever for what it's worth I have never hid the fact that i am a Labour party member, but lets be real and sensible any government would make some mistakes whilst trying to solve this pandemic now is not the time to score points or hold anyone to account, however a full scrutiny is inevitable when this shitstorm is over. 

Thank god we are not being led by Trump at this time, small mercies. I wish the PM Boris Johnson a full recovery and hope he is back in number 10 sooner rather than later (trust me i never thought i would write that).

However all life is political and in time the gloves wil once again be off, no one should lose sight that we started this pandemic in a very poor state due in full to this government and BJ played a leading role in the austerity that led to NHS staff not receiving any worthwhile pay rises, the burseries being stopped so we had fewer nurses, and the total destruction of social care, and of course the depleted stock on PPE and ventilators.  Support now ,question later will be the outcome. keep safe.

One thing I have found interesting in recent weeks is the lack of visibility of Priti Patel. She’s Home Secretary after all, may that indicate she’s got the virus? Or just not at the centre of the response?

T.R.O.Y. wrote:Nobody was distressed by my posts. So give it a rest and move on for your own and the forums sake, you’re tying yourself up in knots trying to justify this rubbish.

You're wrong about that but I won't break a confidence to prove it.

You think you are so smart and clever...

You really aren't at times.