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Wigan in Administration

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Ten Bobsworth
Hip Priest
Banks of the Croal
Natasha Whittam
karlypants
sunlight
gloswhite
MartinBWFC
luckyPeterpiper
BoltonTillIDie
Sluffy
wessy
boltonbonce
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wanderlust
observer
Whitesince63
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61Wigan in Administration - Page 4 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Mon Jul 27 2020, 01:42

observer


Andy Walker
Andy Walker

Sluffy wrote:

Interesting, thank you.

I somehow can't see that happening universally here in the foreseeable future because of the various football bodies have different priorities and even some like the EFL have different priorities at different levels within the tiers they manage.

Without wishing to teach you to suck eggs the PL stands alone from the EFL and broke away from them and it's basically all about earning money.  The EFL, which now is basically the stepping stone to the PL can be split in to two, the Championship where clubs are (or have) spent big to get in the PL and gone into huge debt which is sustained (or not) by the club owner and at the lower level the 'tiny' clubs simply living on gate receipts and now looking to vote in wage caps in order to keep the clubs in some sort of financial sustainability.

Corvid has caused the PL to complete their season (or hand back billions the clubs have received in advanced screening rights for games that hadn't been played, forced the EFL to play out the Championship because of legal threats from clubs seeking to get promoted to the PL but at the same time cancel L1 and L2 to save the clubs from going bust due to no revenue stream due to playing behind closed doors and imposing an artificial points per game average to determine final positions, playoff places and relegation.

You could even consider another level too, higher than the PL of a breakaway European super league as some clubs such as Real Madrid and PSG seem to have suffered huge financial losses and may well seek to form the long dreamed off 12 clubs or so in Europe playing amongst themselves and pocketing all the broadcast rights that would undoubtedly come there way.

I think this latter European Super League would be more in line with the Nationwide sport bodies you have become accustomed to in the USA.

All just my opinion of course but I don't think anybody in their right minds would deposit £25m on escrow to buy a club of Wigan's size with a current trading deficit projected for the next two years, with crowds of less than 10k (that's when crowds are allowed in!) who in all likelihood will have to pay say £10m to buy the club, stadium and assets (and possibly a further £24.5m for this mysterious interest free loan that may or may not be genuine???).

I just can't see such a model working at the moment for the EFL.

Maybe there will be a required rethink following Covid but as it stands the clubs vote on proposals and as we've seen they always vote in the best interests of them rather thanselves the best interest of the sport.
Good answer... but I believe (and this is the first I have actually looked at this), that the escrow is on the players salaries and based on a percentage... whether 30% or so. But it would be the players association that would have to push for it.  The Wigan debacle is truly a warning for all leagues... moving money around like Donald Trump would do.  Too many losers in this... players, fans, staff, vendors... though we are lucky to still be around ourselves. Too many charlatans like Trump out there, who say they are the best, and leave the entities in shambles without anyone getting paid.  Today, one of the baseball teams had 4 players test positive for covid.  Many NBA players have also fallen to covid.  It will be interesting to see if the leagues can actually complete their seasons.  Sports has to take a distant second to survival... so please wear a mask (said to everyone)!

62Wigan in Administration - Page 4 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Tue Jul 28 2020, 14:08

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

A 30 minute interview with Maguire on Wigan.

A few days out of date and I'm not a fan of his but his conclusion was that in the circumstances the club finds itself in (relegated, fire sale of players to bring in revenue, games behind closed doors, limited sponsorship appeal, etc) that the club may will end up being sold to a 'bad' owner such as a Ken Anderson or Bassini type!

63Wigan in Administration - Page 4 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Tue Jul 28 2020, 14:32

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

It's a very difficult situation for any potential buyer. I believe a new potential buyer got involved on Friday, but how do you invest when you don't know what division you'll be in and what payments you'll receive? 
Presumably they'll have to clear out a few players to help make the situation more transparent but that can't happen overnight especially as the players will want a say in where they're going and payday is at the end of this week.
Likely they won't get paid so that should sharpen minds.
Never thought I'd say it but I do feel for them. In this situation it's almost inevitable that there'll be a few sharks looking for a killing circling the club.

64Wigan in Administration - Page 4 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Tue Jul 28 2020, 20:43

Whitesince63


Andy Walker
Andy Walker

I think their situation is dire lusty. I’m struggling to see how they’ll be able to sell players for the millions they need when if they’re not paid this month they can walk in a couple of weeks for nothing. The EFL decision appeal result is scheduled for Friday so no final decision is likely before then so for Wigan fans it’s squeaky bum time. Personally I hope someone decent does take them on, I don’t want them to be another Bury.

65Wigan in Administration - Page 4 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Wed Jul 29 2020, 13:43

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Whitesince63 wrote:I think their situation is dire lusty. I’m struggling to see how they’ll be able to sell players for the millions they need when if they’re not paid this month they can walk in a couple of weeks for nothing. The EFL decision appeal result is scheduled for Friday so no final decision is likely before then so for Wigan fans it’s squeaky bum time. Personally I hope someone decent does take them on, I don’t want them to be another Bury.
I know it's too late now but this is exactly why we should support Lisa Nandy's petition for proper owner vetting - which should be taken out of the hands of the EFL who clearly can't do it.

66Wigan in Administration - Page 4 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Wed Jul 29 2020, 14:00

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

wanderlust wrote:
Whitesince63 wrote:I think their situation is dire lusty. I’m struggling to see how they’ll be able to sell players for the millions they need when if they’re not paid this month they can walk in a couple of weeks for nothing. The EFL decision appeal result is scheduled for Friday so no final decision is likely before then so for Wigan fans it’s squeaky bum time. Personally I hope someone decent does take them on, I don’t want them to be another Bury.
I know it's too late now but this is exactly why we should support Lisa Nandy's petition for proper owner vetting - which should be taken out of the hands of the EFL who clearly can't do it.

No one can do it though, it even takes all the powers of the the government years to do something similar...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51387364

...so how do you expect clubs to wait years before they can be given the green light to have a new owner?

They would long since have folded before that could happen.

All you can do - and common law is based on this - is that you take all reasonable precautions - and that's what the EFL attempt to do.

The club was sold by the club owner to himself - who had owned the club for over a year already - and gave proof of funding that his new company had sufficient funds to continue to do so.

How would anyone not say that was proper vetting at the time?

The problem was that the new business was taken over by someone else and put into Administration on that day - how can anyone stop that let alone the EFL???

67Wigan in Administration - Page 4 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Wed Jul 29 2020, 17:43

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Sluffy wrote:

No one can do it though, it even takes all the powers of the the government years to do something similar...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51387364

...so how do you expect clubs to wait years before they can be given the green light to have a new owner?

They would long since have folded before that could happen.

All you can do - and common law is based on this - is that you take all reasonable precautions - and that's what the EFL attempt to do.

The club was sold by the club owner to himself - who had owned the club for over a year already - and gave proof of funding that his new company had sufficient funds to continue to do so.

How would anyone not say that was proper vetting at the time?

The problem was that the new business was taken over by someone else and put into Administration on that day - how can anyone stop that let alone the EFL???
The Owners and Directors test is clearly not fit for purpose and whilst changes to make it more robust, have annual checks and review the definition of "fit and proper" were discussed in 2018, the EFL decided to do nothing about it despite the ongoing carnage for many clubs.
Loopholes need to be closed and that would require football being made a special case as I suggested earlier in the thread. 
For example, using club funds to pay off debts the owner may have accrued from other business interests could and should be banned. Repayment of Director's loans should be reviewed in the context of the clubs ability to pay rather than being on demand. Potential Owners of Football clubs should be made aware of these and other commitments before diving in. This and other measures to protect the institution of football would require Government intervention hence Lisa Nandy's petition.
The timing issue is tricky to resolve but some of the issues could be ameliorated by introducing a Prospective Owners Register wherein anyone thinking about buying a club should register in advance giving time for rigorous checks to be made and then providing a pre-vetted list. Anyone on the list would have to provide annual updates and notify of any changes in circumstances. Breach of the new regulations could be made a criminal offence to further discourage cowboys. Selling on the club should only be to people already vetted on the register. Not perfect but a step in the right direction.

68Wigan in Administration - Page 4 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Wed Jul 29 2020, 18:01

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

I thought it was the case so I just checked. Director's Loan repayments are presumed to be on demand unless the loan agreement specifies repayment clauses which can be inserted at the beginning. Making it mandatory that such clauses to protect the club would be brilliant.

69Wigan in Administration - Page 4 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Wed Jul 29 2020, 18:32

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

wanderlust wrote:The Owners and Directors test is clearly not fit for purpose and whilst changes to make it more robust, have annual checks and review the definition of "fit and proper" were discussed in 2018, the EFL decided to do nothing about it despite the ongoing carnage for many clubs.
Loopholes need to be closed and that would require football being made a special case as I suggested earlier in the thread. 
For example, using club funds to pay off debts the owner may have accrued from other business interests could and should be banned. Repayment of Director's loans should be reviewed in the context of the clubs ability to pay rather than being on demand. Potential Owners of Football clubs should be made aware of these and other commitments before diving in. This and other measures to protect the institution of football would require Government intervention hence Lisa Nandy's petition.
The timing issue is tricky to resolve but some of the issues could be ameliorated by introducing a Prospective Owners Register wherein anyone thinking about buying a club should register in advance giving time for rigorous checks to be made and then providing a pre-vetted list. Anyone on the list would have to provide annual updates and notify of any changes in circumstances. Breach of the new regulations could be made a criminal offence to further discourage cowboys. Selling on the club should only be to people already vetted on the register. Not perfect but a step in the right direction.

I think you live on a different planet then.

You are talking about English football being a special case which would obviously apply to regulatory authorities throughout the world, what's happened at Wigan is by a company registered in the Virgin Islands and regulated by the HK Stock Exchange - do you really believe they are bothered about a 'members club' which the EFL effectively are, overseeing second to fourth tier football in England???

Of course they aren't.

Has the company that put Wigan into Admin even broke any laws as it certainly doesn't seem like it to me, they have in effect simply gone about liquidating an asset to raise cash which they are quite entitled to do.

Yes it does seem somewhat 'suspicious' how they've gone about it but illegal, I doubt it.

As for your cockeyed idea of people and companies (companies can buy businesses to, it doesn't have to be just people) would submit themselves for scrutiny (when many are registered in offshore country's for all sorts of reasons - and not necessarily illegal ones too) just on the off chance they might buy a football club in England is absurd and enforcing they keep such information up to date by or any other breach a 'criminal' offence is to bizarre for words!!!

I'll tell you now, that isn't going to be happening.

Non of it is.

As for Nandy she's only saying these things because she's the local MP - so did our 3 (and two Baronesses as well) when we were in Admin - that's what is required of them at times like this - if they want voting back in at the next elections!

Nandy was a Bury girl, I can't remember her making any fuss last summer when they were getting kicked out of the league.

It's just all for show, it isn't really going to happen.



70Wigan in Administration - Page 4 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Wed Jul 29 2020, 18:39

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

wanderlust wrote:I thought it was the case so I just checked. Director's Loan repayments are presumed to be on demand unless the loan agreement specifies repayment clauses which can be inserted at the beginning. Making it mandatory that such clauses to protect the club would be brilliant.

Eh?

Is it me?

Directors would then simply make sure the loan is subject to payment on demand as part of their agreement of making the loan in the first place.

It's as easy (and as obvious) as that.

I thought you claimed to know about these things???

71Wigan in Administration - Page 4 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Thu Jul 30 2020, 02:15

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Sluffy wrote:

Eh?

Is it me?

Directors would then simply make sure the loan is subject to payment on demand as part of their agreement of making the loan in the first place.

It's as easy (and as obvious) as that.

I thought you claimed to know about these things???

You really do have a narrow view of business matters and I honestly can't be arsed to write war and peace to explain to you what goes on in the real world.

72Wigan in Administration - Page 4 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Thu Jul 30 2020, 02:47

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

wanderlust wrote:
Sluffy wrote:

Eh?

Is it me?

Directors would then simply make sure the loan is subject to payment on demand as part of their agreement of making the loan in the first place.

It's as easy (and as obvious) as that.

I thought you claimed to know about these things???

You really do have a narrow view of business matters and I honestly can't be arsed to write war and peace to explain to you what goes on in the real world.

Hahaha!

You do make me laugh!!!

In the real world if you want to take a loan from the business you can set your own terms for repayment, usually you intend to have it repaid without the company going bust or in Admin so most don't bother because if the company does go bust or the Administrators come in, you have to pay it all back anyway and that's why the 'presumption' is that it is repaid on demand.

You simply don't have to make it 'mandatory' because it already is, in that you are 'personally' liable for it are not covered by 'limited liability', if you've taken more out of the business than you have put in!

73Wigan in Administration - Page 4 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Thu Jul 30 2020, 12:13

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Sluffy wrote:

Hahaha!

You do make me laugh!!!

In the real world if you want to take a loan from the business you can set your own terms for repayment, usually you intend to have it repaid without the company going bust or in Admin so most don't bother because if the company does go bust or the Administrators come in, you have to pay it all back anyway and that's why the 'presumption' is that it is repaid on demand.

You simply don't have to make it 'mandatory' because it already is, in that you are 'personally' liable for it are not covered by 'limited liability', if you've taken more out of the business than you have put in!
I'm sorry but you do come across as being inacapable of blue sky/thinking out of the box or whatever you want to call it. Reminds me of some of the civil servants and regional government officers I used to advise i.e. "these are the rules/this is the law/we've always done it this way" limited thinking. Laws and rules can and often are changed if there's a need and the will to do so - ergo there is no point in citing the current situation in a discussion about what might be done in the future to resolve the crisis.

74Wigan in Administration - Page 4 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Thu Jul 30 2020, 13:16

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

wanderlust wrote:
Sluffy wrote:

Hahaha!

You do make me laugh!!!

In the real world if you want to take a loan from the business you can set your own terms for repayment, usually you intend to have it repaid without the company going bust or in Admin so most don't bother because if the company does go bust or the Administrators come in, you have to pay it all back anyway and that's why the 'presumption' is that it is repaid on demand.

You simply don't have to make it 'mandatory' because it already is, in that you are 'personally' liable for it are not covered by 'limited liability', if you've taken more out of the business than you have put in!
I'm sorry but you do come across as being inacapable of blue sky/thinking out of the box or whatever you want to call it. Reminds me of some of the civil servants and regional government officers I used to advise i.e. "these are the rules/this is the law/we've always done it this way" limited thinking. Laws and rules can and often are changed if there's a need and the will to do so - ergo there is no point in citing the current situation in a discussion about what might be done in the future to resolve the crisis.

Hahaha!

Now we've got to the petulant child outburst!

"I'm right and everybody else is always wrong"

You say used to advise civil servants and regional government officers and they obviously thought you were spouting utter bollocks too!!!!!

And finally "crisis"?

What 'crisis'????

We are talking about a private members club who regulates a level of football (not even the top level!!!), based in a country that most of the world is no longer much bothered about, where a handful of their members have had some ownership/trading issues in which just one of them 'may' (and I stress the word 'may') have been subject to company fraud and you want to change how the whole world financially regulates itself!!!!

I don't call that 'blue sky/thinking outside the box', I call that the insane  ramblings of an utter nutjob.

Which it is.




Being serious, why can't you just sometimes admit (even if it's only to yourself) you've got it wrong when surely even you realise that you have, rather than keep digging the hole deeper and deeper for yourself?

What are you trying to prove and to whom?

Nobody actually cares on here who is right or wrong but they can all see who is spouting bullshit and who isn't.

And it certainly isn't me.

75Wigan in Administration - Page 4 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Thu Jul 30 2020, 14:40

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Sluffy wrote:

Hahaha!

Now we've got to the petulant child outburst!

"I'm right and everybody else is always wrong"

You say used to advise civil servants and regional government officers and they obviously thought you were spouting utter bollocks too!!!!!

And finally "crisis"?

What 'crisis'????

We are talking about a private members club who regulates a level of football (not even the top level!!!), based in a country that most of the world is no longer much bothered about, where a handful of their members have had some ownership/trading issues in which just one of them 'may' (and I stress the word 'may') have been subject to company fraud and you want to change how the whole world financially regulates itself!!!!

I don't call that 'blue sky/thinking outside the box', I call that the insane  ramblings of an utter nutjob.

Which it is.




Being serious, why can't you just sometimes admit (even if it's only to yourself) you've got it wrong when surely even you realise that you have, rather than keep digging the hole deeper and deeper for yourself?

What are you trying to prove and to whom?

Nobody actually cares on here who is right or wrong but they can all see who is spouting bullshit and who isn't.

And it certainly isn't me.
Oh dear.

76Wigan in Administration - Page 4 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Fri Jul 31 2020, 00:47

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

Barnsley will be allowed to make their views known in Wigan Athletic's appeal against their 12-point penalty for going into administration.

The Latics' hearing in front of an independent disciplinary commission is set to take place on Friday.

Wigan are appealing against the automatic punishment on the grounds of 'force majeure'.

Should Wigan win their case, it would relegate Barnsley, who finished fourth from bottom in the Championship.

The Tykes were bottom of the table with two games to go but beat both Nottingham Forest and Brentford to finish above Wigan, who would have ended the season in mid-table but for their points deduction.

Force majeure events are usually defined as certain acts, events or circumstances beyond the control of the involved parties, such as natural disasters, war or a pandemic.

It is likely Barnsley will argue for the punishment to remain in place given co-chairman Paul Conway threatened litigation earlier this month after becoming frustrated at the number of serious disciplinary matters put before the EFL this season that are still awaiting resolution.

Even after their survival had been secured, Barnsley issued a statement in which they complained about the "blatant disregard for sporting/competitive integrity and the lack of governance in our division".

The final game of the Championship season is on 4 August, when the play-off final will be held at Wembley.

The expectation is a decision in the Wigan case will be made next week.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53583068


To my mind the owner putting the club into Administration is not Force Majeure, it's a deliberate action which is definitely in control of a key involved party - but if it's got as far as the courts there must be something in their case to fight for.

I feel sorry for Wigan, they so nearly stayed up - and quite frankly with 11 more points than Barnsley deserved to do so, but I also feel sorry for Barnsley who have done nothing wrong and winning their last two games including a win at Brentford(!) deserve to stay up too!

It will be interesting to see how this plays out but on the face of things Wigan don't have a cat in hell's chance of staying up - unless they have an ace up their sleeve!

77Wigan in Administration - Page 4 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Fri Jul 31 2020, 00:55

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

To add to Wigan's woe, their manager Paul Cook has quit.

I say has quit but he won't go until after the appeal (and Administration?) is sorted.

The gossip is that he was going to get the Bristol City job and handed in his notice but the Administrator refused to accept it - as there might be compensation payable from Bristol if he remains under contract.

I'm guessing he most be getting his wages otherwise he could walk after giving two weeks notice from a month after they were due.

Maybe that's the actual position anyway but the gossip as I say was that he quit and the Administrator would not let him go.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53574865

78Wigan in Administration - Page 4 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Sat Aug 01 2020, 00:43

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Sheff Wednesday deducted 12 points for finacial irregularities - but for next season.
If they'd have been applied this season the Owls would have finished bottom and been relegated. Hmmm....

79Wigan in Administration - Page 4 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Sat Aug 01 2020, 10:51

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

Paul Cook: Wigan Athletic manager resigns after three years in charge

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53613205

80Wigan in Administration - Page 4 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Sat Aug 01 2020, 16:18

wessy

wessy
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf

The guy who had his finger on the pulse re Wigans demise feels like they will win the apppeal.
https://forums.vitalfootball.co.uk/threads/barnsley-will-go-down.106908/

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