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Bolton Nuts » BWFC » Wandering Minds » Wigan in Administration

Wigan in Administration

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Ten Bobsworth
Hip Priest
Banks of the Croal
Natasha Whittam
karlypants
sunlight
gloswhite
MartinBWFC
luckyPeterpiper
BoltonTillIDie
Sluffy
wessy
boltonbonce
Norpig
wanderlust
observer
Whitesince63
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Bollotom2014
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81Wigan in Administration - Page 5 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Sat Aug 01 2020, 17:01

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

wessy wrote:The guy who had his finger on the pulse re Wigans demise feels like they will win the apppeal.
https://forums.vitalfootball.co.uk/threads/barnsley-will-go-down.106908/

I'm not as confident as him.

He seems to be setting his stall out over Force Majeure and highlights this bit -

12.3.11 For the purposes of this Regulation 12.3, a ‘Force Majeure’ event shall be an event that, having regard to all of the circumstances, was caused by and resulted directly from circumstances, other than normal business risks, over which the Club and/or Group Undertaking (as the case may be) could not reasonably be expected to have control and its Officials had used all due diligence to avoid the happening of that event.

Clearly the owner putting a company into Administration to sell or liquidate an asset is definitely something the 'owner' has a control of.

What the paragraph says in a nutshell is that (and I'll couch it in Bolton terms to make it easier to understand) if Bolton Wanderers Football and Athletic Ltd, or the Group Undertaking, which would be Burnden Leisure had taken all due diligence and things went pear shaped and they could do nothing about it, then yes, it would be seen as Force Majeure and in that case result in no penalty points.

But the question arises when the one above Burnden Leisure, which in our case is FV is seen to be the Group Holding or not because if it is, then Force Majeure would not apply and the penalty would still stand.

I think there may even be some sort of previous precedence too (although I might be remembering things wrongly?) when some clubs equivalent to FV went bust and the club received a points deduction resulting from it - although if it was relevant I would have thought others might have mentioned it before?

To my mind the case hinges on who is seen to be the Group Holding, with the Administrators clearly having the view it is the Burnden Leisure equivalent and not the FV company equivalent.

I've nothing against Wigan and wish them well but I don't think the case is as black and white as he thinks it to be.

To be honest though their problems are bigger than which division they are in next season, their first concern is if they can find a buyer prepared to spend millions with no obvious plan to recoup their investment, during a pandemic, and no sight of when crowds will be allowed to watch games - and all this with the season being only 6 weeks away and nobody has even had a look at the clubs books yet!

82Wigan in Administration - Page 5 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Sat Aug 01 2020, 18:33

Hip Priest

Hip Priest
Andy Walker
Andy Walker

When Bury were going through their expulsion crisis I was absolutely gutted for them and their fans, even though they have been fierce rivals of ours whenever we have been in the same division. Likewise with other financially mismanaged clubs like Portsmouth, Blackpool, Charlton etc, my heart went out to their fans and I mourned the state of modern football and it's financial stupidities.

I know it's churlish but with Wigan, no matter how often I try to consider things rationally I can't stop myself wanting them to get punished and relegated. I realise I should be wishing them well from a "We're all part of the same footballing family" type of mentality but in reality if the league decided to relegate them by 2 divisions into L2 then that would be just fine by me.

I don't really know why this is, and I will no doubt get some stick on here for expressing these views, but for some reason I really don't like Wigan fans. I know in reality that they are no different than any other bunch of fans but the ones I encounter just seem to come across as mouthy, slow witted (often proudly racist) yonners.
The memories of so many of them laughing and taking the piss out of us when we were threatened with liquidation probably doesn't help either.

83Wigan in Administration - Page 5 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Sat Aug 01 2020, 18:45

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

Hip Priest wrote:When Bury were going through their expulsion from the league crisis I was absolutely gutted for them and their fans, even though they have been fierce rivals of ours whenever we have been in the same division. Likewise with other financially mismanaged clubs like Portsmouth, Blackpool, Charlton etc, my heart went out to their fans and I mourned the state of modern football and it's financial stupidities.

I know it's churlish but with Wigan, no matter how often I try to consider things rationally I can't stop myself wanting them to get punished and relegated. I realise I should be wishing them well from a "We're all part of the same footballing family" type of mentality but in reality if the league decided to relegate them by 2 divisions into L2 I would be absolutely chuffed.

I don't really know why this is, and I will no doubt get some stick on here for expressing these views,  but for some reason I really don't like Wigan fans. I know in reality that they are no different than any other bunch of fans but the ones I encounter just seem to come across as mouthy, slow witted (often proudly racist) yonners.
The memories of so many of them laughing and taking the piss out of us when we were threatened with liquidation probably doesn't help either.

No stick from me.

I'm sorry for their true and decent fans, but there seemed rather too many obnoxious ones when we were going through our woes.

We've got plenty obnoxious fans ourself of course, all teams have, but I certainly didn't see much support for our club from many of them (if any at all?).

For the good of football, I don't like how they have got into the mess. and having a local rival on our doorstep I do hope they cling on but things are definitely not looking rosy for them from where I stand.

84Wigan in Administration - Page 5 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Sat Aug 01 2020, 19:43

observer


Andy Walker
Andy Walker

Sluffy wrote:

No stick from me.

I'm sorry for their true and decent fans, but there seemed rather too many obnoxious ones when we were going through our woes.

We've got plenty obnoxious fans ourself of course, all teams have, but I certainly didn't see much support for our club from many of them (if any at all?).

For the good of football, I don't like how they have got into the mess. and having a local rival on our doorstep I do hope they cling on but things are definitely not looking rosy for them from where I stand.
Good that you are taking the high road Sluffy... especially after what our club has gone through.  We were lucky to survive.

85Wigan in Administration - Page 5 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Sat Aug 01 2020, 19:56

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

observer wrote:
Sluffy wrote:

No stick from me.

I'm sorry for their true and decent fans, but there seemed rather too many obnoxious ones when we were going through our woes.

We've got plenty obnoxious fans ourself of course, all teams have, but I certainly didn't see much support for our club from many of them (if any at all?).

For the good of football, I don't like how they have got into the mess. and having a local rival on our doorstep I do hope they cling on but things are definitely not looking rosy for them from where I stand.
Good that you are taking the high road Sluffy... especially after what our club has gone through.  We were lucky to survive.

I don't know that I am, I'm just saying it as I see it.

But thanks anyway!

Very Happy

86Wigan in Administration - Page 5 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Sat Aug 01 2020, 19:59

wessy

wessy
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf

Yes i agree with what is said above desperate times for Wigan and to be fair football in general, with Sheff Wednesday , Derby, Charlton,Birmingham, Maccelsfield and god knows who else.

I suppose / know because we lived it that you cling to anything positive that you hear (Howard) even if it turns out to be bullshit. I worked all my life in Wigan all my best mates are Wiganers, my Dad was a Wiganer (but a Wanderer) My daughter lives in Wigan which means my Granddaughters will grow up to be Wiganers, but despite me knowing it's wrong, part of me like HP just wants them to suffer as we suffered.

I think despite the good fans that did support us in terms of they didn't want another club to go bust i read to many things on Latics Speyk that was vicious and hurtfull as was the way they danced around our stadium giving it large, i think it's those memories that turn me off Wigan, I don't want them to go bust but wouldn't cry if they got lumbered with a shit owner in division 1 with an embargo.

87Wigan in Administration - Page 5 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Sun Aug 02 2020, 01:22

wanderlust

wanderlust
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

wessy wrote:The guy who had his finger on the pulse re Wigans demise feels like they will win the apppeal.
https://forums.vitalfootball.co.uk/threads/barnsley-will-go-down.106908/
It's an interesting read but the author comes across as a fanatic with tunnel-vision focused on this outcome happening just as he dreamed it. Makes a lot of assumptions.
And I'd question whether or not someone who was close enough to know the case would be writing this anyway?
But as Sluffy says, they have two battles: finances and the capacity to improve them - which could both be helped by staying up.
It's going to be interesting to see which way this goes as they may wriggle out of it yet.

88Wigan in Administration - Page 5 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Sun Aug 02 2020, 17:35

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin











Just to explain the next one, Kieffer More was bought by Wigan from Barnsley and the payment was in instalments, the next one due (our now already outstanding).







£12k x 52 weeks = £624k !!!







89Wigan in Administration - Page 5 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Sun Aug 02 2020, 18:02

Norpig

Norpig
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

How much did we sell Euxton for?

90Wigan in Administration - Page 5 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Sun Aug 02 2020, 18:20

boltonbonce

boltonbonce
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Norpig wrote:How much did we sell Euxton for?
£2.2 Million by all accounts.

91Wigan in Administration - Page 5 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Sun Aug 02 2020, 19:23

wessy

wessy
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf

I ger confused with this ? (not hard) We sold Euxton to Huron Properties owned by Dave Whelan, he then sold Huron Properties. So does that mean that Wigan Athletic do not own our old training ground but are just tennants. Or could DW have sold Huron but not the training ground? Any ideas Sluffy ? And if Dave Whelan bought it was it ever owned by the football club. or is it owned by the Whelan family?

92Wigan in Administration - Page 5 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Sun Aug 02 2020, 20:59

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

wessy wrote:I get confused with this ? (not hard) We sold Euxton to Huron Properties owned by Dave Whelan, he then sold Huron Properties. So does that mean that Wigan Athletic do not own our old training ground but are just tennants. Or could DW have sold Huron but not the training ground? Any ideas Sluffy ? And if Dave Whelan bought it was it ever owned by the football club. or is it owned by the Whelan family?

Don't worry mate these things can be highly complexed at times!

I'll simplify it the best I can.

Lets start of with an analogy to make it a bit easier to understand, imagine you work in a big company and you want to find your way around, you will find it easier if parts of it are split into different things such as sales, purchases, accounts, Human Resources, finance, etc.

The same things can happen in how various companies are linked together, for example BWFC stands as a company in its own right, as does the hotel (Bolton Whites), both of these in turn come under the control of Burnden Leisure, which itself comes under the ownership of FV.

So if you ask the question who owns BWFC, it is ultimately owned by FV.

However FV could sell off the Club to say Bolton Nuts Ltd owned by Natasha and I but still own the hotel and the stadium (depending if wasn't part of the sale) and all the land around it.

FV if they wanted could buy back Euxton, transfer its ownership to BWFC and include it in the sale of BWFC to Bolton Nuts!

Basically this is what happened at Wigan.

Whelan did own Huron (he's sold it on since) bought Euxton from Burnden Leisure then included in the sale of the club, the stadium and the holding/property company to the Chinese company that bought them - IEC -

"The Whelan family is understood to have agreed a deal in principle to sell their majority stake in League One champions Wigan Athletic to a Hong Kong-based consortium.

The proposed takeover by International Entertainment Corporation is subject to Hong Kong Stock Exchange and EFL approval.

The deal with IEC would also include a majority shareholding in the DW Stadium, as well as the club's training grounds at Christopher Park and Euxton".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/44040868

"As far as I'm aware the new company that bought Wigan also had included in the sale everything else including Euxton -

The takeover of Wigan Athletic has been completed by Next Leader Fund, a limited partnership headed by Hong Kong businessman Au Yeung Wai Kay".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/44040868

Which if is the case as I believe to be means that it is now in the control of the Administrators who can sell it if they deem it to be in the best interests of the creditors the club is owing money too.

As I say it isn't easy to follow all that goes on at corporate level but in a nutshell Whelan bought Euxton with one of his companies and 'sold' it to another of his companies which was later bought by IEC owned by Dr Stanley Choi (pictured below) who in turn set

Wigan in Administration - Page 5 0bd22670-aa78-11e9-9b3a-71b8eee08629

https://wiganathletic.com/news/2018/november/find-out-more-about-the-new-owners-of-wigan-athletic-football-club-international-entertainment-corporation/

up another company with Au Yeung Wai Kay called Next Leader Fund, with Au Yeung taking overall control some weeks later and on the same day put Wigan into Administration -

The only public comment Au Yeung has made since taking the club into administration is a five-paragraph statement sent to the Wigan Observer on 7 July. -

All sorts of theories have been posited as to why the owner took the decision he did, but he says the financial impact of the Covid-19 outbreak was to blame.

"We bought Wigan Athletic with the best intentions: to create a team that would get the club back into the Premier League, and I have invested more than £40million (to buy it and repay a loan to former owners the International Entertainment Corporation).

"Unfortunately, the Covid-19 crisis has severely impacted people and businesses around the world - and Championship football clubs, which rely on fans coming through the turnstiles, are no exception.

"This has fundamentally undermined our ability to fund Wigan Athletic and, after struggling to find a solution, in the end took the difficult decision to put the club into administration to ensure its survival.

"The administrators are now doing everything they can to find a new owner who will secure the future of Wigan Athletic for the sake of the many thousands of devoted Latics fans, and the local community."

"Wigan Athletic is a wonderful football club with rich history and a passionate fanbase," Au Yeung said, in a statement exclusively released to Wigan Today.
https://www.wigantoday.net/sport/football/exclusive-wigan-athletic-owner-au-yeung-wai-kay-defends-difficult-administration-decision-2906602

Au Yeung spoke to the Administrators just before the points appeal hearing though -

"The Hong Kong-based businessman put the club into administration on 1 July, weeks after buying them, but has given little public explanation as to why.

However, he responded to administrator Gerald Krasner's request for a 'virtual meeting', lasting more than an hour.

The details of that discussion remain confidential.

But BBC Sport understands it answered many of the questions around the reasons for the Latics' plight and the information was used as part of Friday's appeal against the club's 12-point deduction".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53616070


So I hope that fully answers your question!

Very Happy

93Wigan in Administration - Page 5 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Mon Aug 03 2020, 10:31

wessy

wessy
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf

It Certainly does, Thank you.  Going to be an interesting few weeks, It seems Euxton is either a pot of gold that keeps on giving to failed football clubs or a poisened chalice so look out PNE, however they seem to be well run.

Guessing the time frame for Wigan is very tight, with a date allready set for a restart on the 12th of September, it follows that the fixtures will have to come out ASAP and the EFL will want assurances that Wigan are able to complete next season IF they have any chance of survival.

94Wigan in Administration - Page 5 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Mon Aug 03 2020, 10:57

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

wessy wrote:It Certainly does, Thank you.  Going to be an interesting few weeks, It seems Euxton is either a pot of gold that keeps on giving to failed football clubs or a poisened chalice so look out PNE, however they seem to be well run.

Guessing the time frame for Wigan is very tight, with a date already set for a restart on the 12th of September, it follows that the fixtures will have to come out ASAP and the EFL will want assurances that Wigan are able to complete next season IF they have any chance of survival.

You're welcome!

Absolutely correct about the EFL wanting assurances, that's why part of their tests for owners approval to buy the club is proof of funds to cover trading losses for the next two years and Wigan has not even got to the point of a potential purchaser even having a look yet and doing 'due diligence' before they commit to buy!

I can't see them allowing another 'Bolton' by starting the season in Administration with an uncertainty about the sale being completed so unless somebody commits in the next week or so, who has access to (in theory) £10m advertised purchase of club, plus £6m in accrued wages and now outstanding instalments of payments of transfer fees to other clubs, plus (let's say) £15m to run the club at loss for the next two years (it was £25m just a month or so ago when the current owner bought it - but players out of contract and the Admins cost cuttings should have brought that amount down).

So that's £31m and doesn't even take into account this mysterious loan of (iirc?) £24m that the new owner did or did not put in.

I simply can't see a happy outcome for them.

They are in Bassini type territory!

95Wigan in Administration - Page 5 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Mon Aug 03 2020, 12:37

BoltonTillIDie

BoltonTillIDie
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

DW sPorts also In administration

96Wigan in Administration - Page 5 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Mon Aug 03 2020, 13:02

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

BoltonTillIDie wrote:DW Sports also In administration

As far as I can tell it isn't Dave Whelan's anymore he seems to have sold it to his son in law David Sharpe's company Maddox Holdings.

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/12005947

However the share owners of that company seem to include Whelan family members including his wife Patricia but not Dave himself.


Can't imagine though that Whelan will want to be Wigan Athletics white knight and rescue them at this moment in time!

97Wigan in Administration - Page 5 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Mon Aug 03 2020, 13:22

Norpig

Norpig
Nat Lofthouse
Nat Lofthouse

Dave Whelan once broke his leg did you know? I think he may have mentioned it once or twice.....

98Wigan in Administration - Page 5 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Mon Aug 03 2020, 19:37

wessy

wessy
El Hadji Diouf
El Hadji Diouf

Stark figures laid out Sluffy does look bleak at this point, tomorrow the appeal result (4pm) may shed light on what they are actually selling (championship or Div 1) but so much more to worry about.

99Wigan in Administration - Page 5 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Tue Aug 04 2020, 17:18

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin


Thought they would!



100Wigan in Administration - Page 5 Empty Re: Wigan in Administration Tue Aug 04 2020, 17:50

Sluffy

Sluffy
Admin

Nixon's article -

Wigan Athletic fail in appeal against 12-point deduction as relegation to League One is confirmed

WIGAN ATHLETIC'S hope of a relegation reprieve was shattered by an EFL appeals panel that confirmed a 12-point penalty.

Latics administrators lost out at the end of a season of pain and the decision to enforce the punishment means they go down to League One.

The appeal, costing an estimated £480,000 at the hard-up outfit, fell on deaf ears - with Barnsley left celebrating their survival.

Three top judges were called in for one of the most delicate decisions the EFL faced and they went through the arguments put forward by Wigan’s side.

So the decision of Hong Kong owners Au Yeung and Stanley Choi to pull the plug at the start of July has sent their old club down.

And while the recriminations and investigations into their behaviour go on, Wigan are now left facing a bleak few weeks as they fight for their future.

Wigan said: "The club put forward a strong case and naturally we are disappointed at the decision. The first-team management will now prepare the team for next season's League One campaign."

The cost of relegation is painful for Latics who miss out on the TV money at Championship level and will have to rebuild with a lesser hand-out.

That payment drops from around £6.2 million to an estimated £775,000 in League One and leaves their next owners with little help.

Left back Antonee Robinson can now leave for a bargain £1.5 million because of a clause in his deal when he signed from Everton.

The United States international, who was set to sign for AC Milan in a move worth £6 million and rising in January, could go for a fraction of that fee.

Midfielder Joe Williams, who has now suffered three relegations in a row, also has a fixed price in his deal - of around £2.5 million.

Deals for target man Kieffer Moore and young striker Joe Gelhardt will have to be hurried along to help the cash flow.

Bizarrely Moore’s imminent £2 million exit will pay for HIMSELF as former club Barnsley are due an instalment of around £1.5 million for selling him a year ago.

The EFL will take the cash from sales and distribute them to Wigan’s football creditors, leaving the change for the unpaid salaries and wage deferral schemes.

The players left in the squad will also now face massive cuts in their salaries, around 40 to 50 per cent.

That will save a large amount from the payroll next season, but it is a savage blow for the squad who thought they had beaten the drop.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/12311688/wigan-athletic-fail-appeal-point-deduction-relegation/?utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=sunfootballtwitter&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1596559106

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